Dr. Dickie
Member
"Inside, outside, alongside... of what use is an unloaded gun?"
I dunno, even Superman ducked when the badguys threw their pistol at him
I dunno, even Superman ducked when the badguys threw their pistol at him
Do you CCW with a round chambered?
- Thread starter DRMMR02
- Start date
- Status
romma
Member
Well from almost every Hollywood movie or tv show out there that portrays gun violence, You would think that bad guys and good guys alike keep their chambers empty. And oddly enough, life does sometimes imitate art. Of course I am not gambling my life on the notion a BG has an empty chamber either. And I myself am not following the "artsy" trend...
Essex County
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,247
Please do not percieve Me as rude............
But, it doesn't take more than 30 seconds of reflection to come up with the answer. If you feel unsecure to carry in condition 1, it may be best to leave it in the drawer in the nightstand. No offense intended........Essex
But, it doesn't take more than 30 seconds of reflection to come up with the answer. If you feel unsecure to carry in condition 1, it may be best to leave it in the drawer in the nightstand. No offense intended........Essex
I carry my Glock unchambered. With all due respect for all of your opinions, an unchambered gun is not a paperweight, or a rock...unless the paperweights or rocks you are familiar with can be made to fire hunks of lead with a split-second movement of the weak hand.
As for someone who said "would you want the BG to hear you chamber a round?" Yes, I would. I'm not going to be firing at anybody who is unaware of me, I will only fire at an attacker. As others mentioned, like with regard to the Israelis, there really is no time added to your draw if it's a practiced movement - the requirement to use both hands is an exchange I'm willing to make for the peace of mind that the gun I'm packing is physically impossible to fire when it's strapped to my flesh and blood.
As for someone who said "would you want the BG to hear you chamber a round?" Yes, I would. I'm not going to be firing at anybody who is unaware of me, I will only fire at an attacker. As others mentioned, like with regard to the Israelis, there really is no time added to your draw if it's a practiced movement - the requirement to use both hands is an exchange I'm willing to make for the peace of mind that the gun I'm packing is physically impossible to fire when it's strapped to my flesh and blood.
possum
Member
you've always gotta be prepared right? that kinda slows down your draw when you have to draw and chamber a rd then get on target. i carry locked and loaded always.
rich52us
Member
Flopsy, I don't mean this as a personal attack, so please forgive me in advance. I wasn't going to respond and I deleted the msg, but then I had to go back to it.
"I carry my Glock unchambered. With all due respect for all of your opinions, an unchambered gun is not a paperweight, or a rock...unless the paperweights or rocks you are familiar with can be made to fire hunks of lead with a split-second movement of the weak hand."
That's fine if you are fortunate enough to not need it to fend of one or two attackers, and it is not disabled for some reason in the confrontation.
"As for someone who said "would you want the BG to hear you chamber a round?" Yes, I would. I'm not going to be firing at anybody who is unaware of me, I will only fire at an attacker. "
I only intend to fire at an attacker as well. But if it comes to the point I have decided to draw my weapon, I want the next, and probably last, thing the attacker to hear to be BANG.
"As others mentioned, like with regard to the Israelis, there really is no time added to your draw if it's a practiced movement - the requirement to use both hands is an exchange I'm willing to make for the peace of mind that the gun I'm packing is physically impossible to fire when it's strapped to my flesh and blood."
This is irrational to me. I believe in the KISS principle, especially in stressful situations. I was a cop for 20 years and I've seen many life threatening situations. I have pretty good training and experience. To carry a weapon that is "physically impossible" to immediately bring into action while the BG has one that is, just makes no sense to me. I know that if I do my part, the weapons I carry are SAFE when strapped to my flesh and blood, and immediately available to defend my flesh and blood if necessary. Just my opinion.
"I carry my Glock unchambered. With all due respect for all of your opinions, an unchambered gun is not a paperweight, or a rock...unless the paperweights or rocks you are familiar with can be made to fire hunks of lead with a split-second movement of the weak hand."
That's fine if you are fortunate enough to not need it to fend of one or two attackers, and it is not disabled for some reason in the confrontation.
"As for someone who said "would you want the BG to hear you chamber a round?" Yes, I would. I'm not going to be firing at anybody who is unaware of me, I will only fire at an attacker. "
I only intend to fire at an attacker as well. But if it comes to the point I have decided to draw my weapon, I want the next, and probably last, thing the attacker to hear to be BANG.
"As others mentioned, like with regard to the Israelis, there really is no time added to your draw if it's a practiced movement - the requirement to use both hands is an exchange I'm willing to make for the peace of mind that the gun I'm packing is physically impossible to fire when it's strapped to my flesh and blood."
This is irrational to me. I believe in the KISS principle, especially in stressful situations. I was a cop for 20 years and I've seen many life threatening situations. I have pretty good training and experience. To carry a weapon that is "physically impossible" to immediately bring into action while the BG has one that is, just makes no sense to me. I know that if I do my part, the weapons I carry are SAFE when strapped to my flesh and blood, and immediately available to defend my flesh and blood if necessary. Just my opinion.
Rich, I don't take that as an attack at all. I respect the choice to carry chambered, and you and all the others make good arguments why it's the best option. Don't get me wrong, they're all good reasons. I acknowledge and completely agree that I'm going to be at a slight disadvantage compared to someone who's cocked and locked. BUT, I do regard condition 3 as a small sacrifice in exchange for the added measure of safety. No, I'm not afraid of the gun, no, I don't think I need more training, but I acknowledge the reality that an ND is damn near impossible if I carry unchambered.
Especially since I keep a Glock 27 in a smartcarry - the draw is a crowded operation since it's down my pants, and no amount of training can counteract the pure geometry that there's not a lot of room for my whole hand with its fingers, the Glock, and my other equipment. So while I agree with the reasons presented for carrying chambered, for my particular rig I'm willing to give up the split second of time, and with the smartcarry draw I would be using 2 hands anyway. If I carried a revolver or a 1911 or something like that I'd be condition 1 with the rest of you.
Especially since I keep a Glock 27 in a smartcarry - the draw is a crowded operation since it's down my pants, and no amount of training can counteract the pure geometry that there's not a lot of room for my whole hand with its fingers, the Glock, and my other equipment. So while I agree with the reasons presented for carrying chambered, for my particular rig I'm willing to give up the split second of time, and with the smartcarry draw I would be using 2 hands anyway. If I carried a revolver or a 1911 or something like that I'd be condition 1 with the rest of you.
Steve in PA
Member
Hopefully your condition 3 carry won't cost you or a loved one their life one day.
It amazes me to think that there are people out there who honestly believe they will have the time and opportunity to use BOTH hands in a SHTF situation. They are obviously not prepared for the worst case scenarion, which is the type of situation which will usually happen.
It amazes me to think that there are people out there who honestly believe they will have the time and opportunity to use BOTH hands in a SHTF situation. They are obviously not prepared for the worst case scenarion, which is the type of situation which will usually happen.
Big Gay Al
Member
Then either you need a better gun, or a different type of carry for your weapon.
Obviously, this instructor never heard of the Late, Great Col. Jeff Cooper.
I know that no one thinks it will happen to them, but suppose, just for a moment that all the time you have to react is the second or two it will take you to draw and fire your weapon at a threat that just appeared?
If I didn't feel comfortable carrying any of my pistols with a round in the chamber, I'd switch to a revolver.
Just my opinion.
When I first CC a brand new gun that I have never carried before, I don't keep a round in the pipe for just a few days. I want to make sure that I can effectively and securely carry, draw and present it without an accidental discharge. I am physically very active in my line of work and have to use pocket holsters a lot. There is pressure, tension, movement, etc. on both the holster and gun as a result. After a few days, when I'm satisfied that it carries well without any problems, yes - I always keep one round chambered.
Phyphor
Member
Laescopeta sez:
Toowhubbawho?
Uh, isn't a Glock 19 different than a Ruger P-85 in that case?
Toowhubbawho?
Uh, isn't a Glock 19 different than a Ruger P-85 in that case?
rich52us
Member
Rich, I don't take that as an attack at all. I respect the choice to carry chambered, and you and all the others make good arguments why it's the best option. Don't get me wrong, they're all good reasons. I acknowledge and completely agree that I'm going to be at a slight disadvantage compared to someone who's cocked and locked. BUT, I do regard condition 3 as a small sacrifice in exchange for the added measure of safety. No, I'm not afraid of the gun, no, I don't think I need more training, but I acknowledge the reality that an ND is damn near impossible if I carry unchambered.
Especially since I keep a Glock 27 in a smartcarry - the draw is a crowded operation since it's down my pants, and no amount of training can counteract the pure geometry that there's not a lot of room for my whole hand with its fingers, the Glock, and my other equipment. So while I agree with the reasons presented for carrying chambered, for my particular rig I'm willing to give up the split second of time, and with the smartcarry draw I would be using 2 hands anyway. If I carried a revolver or a 1911 or something like that I'd be condition 1 with the rest of you.__________________
Flopsy, I wish you the best with your choices. I just hope you are not overestimating a persons ability to accomplish what needs to be done to get your weapon to condition one in an emergency. I also hope you are not underestimating the potential situations, and people that will oppose you in those situations that you will need your weapon. God luck.
Especially since I keep a Glock 27 in a smartcarry - the draw is a crowded operation since it's down my pants, and no amount of training can counteract the pure geometry that there's not a lot of room for my whole hand with its fingers, the Glock, and my other equipment. So while I agree with the reasons presented for carrying chambered, for my particular rig I'm willing to give up the split second of time, and with the smartcarry draw I would be using 2 hands anyway. If I carried a revolver or a 1911 or something like that I'd be condition 1 with the rest of you.__________________
Flopsy, I wish you the best with your choices. I just hope you are not overestimating a persons ability to accomplish what needs to be done to get your weapon to condition one in an emergency. I also hope you are not underestimating the potential situations, and people that will oppose you in those situations that you will need your weapon. God luck.
LaEscopeta
Member
I don’t know, is it? I downloaded and quickly skimmed the Ruger P-85 manual and didn’t see any difference that would affect an Israeli draw (chamber-as-drawing) drill. The drill is:
- Carry condition 3 (loaded magazine, empty chamber, safety off (set to the fire position.))
- 2 hand draw, racking the slide to chamber a round (and cock the hammer on a single action) as the pistol is brought up to the fire position.
Unless there is something unique about this Ruger (like racking the slide does not cock the hammer) I’m not seeing how the drill would be different.
That's a lovely sentiment.
And hopefully your decision won't cost you yours. It's not amazing. How long does it take you to rack a slide? Do you peer at it from a few different angles, hold it up to the light, and ask it if it's ready to be racked today? It takes me a tiny fraction of a second, and that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. And no, I really don't think it's probable that I'm going to have one arm completely disabled, or won't be able to spare the weak hand for a tiny fraction of a second to stop holding back the attacker with my Bruce Lee skills. I know it's a sacrifice, but it's a real cost/benefit analysis; I believe that the vast, vast majority of the time I will be able to use both hands at least for a tiny fraction of a second. I know that in some, probably rare SHTF situations I couldn't, but looking at comparing the added safety to the perfect storm where I couldn't rack my slide, it's simply a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Again, all due respect to the opinions of deserving others.
skers69
Member
I find this to be a very interesting topic. I do not carry as I do not have my ccw yet. But when I do I expect to carry with out a round in the chamber. I want the added security of knowing I will not have a round go off in carry or draw condition. I have a CZ PCR. So 1/2 cock and loaded may also be a option. In the end how long does it really take to rack the slide....1/2 of 1/2 of a second? With proper tranning it should not make that much of a difference in draw time.
Steve in PA
Member
My decision? I have enough confidence to know that my gun won't go off unless I want it to.
Keep your head in the sand and HOPE that you can use both hands.
Keep your head in the sand and HOPE you are fast enough to rack the slide.
Keep your head in the sand thinking, "I'll be okay in most situations".
Again, use my previous scenario; two shooter, one chambered, one not chambered. Have them stand side-by-side and on signal, draw and put a round on target. YOU will loose. In the scenario it will just be the shame of being embarrased. In real life....you'll be dead.
I can live with my decision. Trouble is, you probably won't with yours.
Keep your head in the sand and HOPE that you can use both hands.
Keep your head in the sand and HOPE you are fast enough to rack the slide.
Keep your head in the sand thinking, "I'll be okay in most situations".
Again, use my previous scenario; two shooter, one chambered, one not chambered. Have them stand side-by-side and on signal, draw and put a round on target. YOU will loose. In the scenario it will just be the shame of being embarrased. In real life....you'll be dead.
I can live with my decision. Trouble is, you probably won't with yours.
rich52us
Member
I find this to be a very interesting topic. I do not carry as I do not have my ccw yet. But when I do I expect to carry with out a round in the chamber. I want the added security of knowing I will not have a round go off in carry or draw condition. I have a CZ PCR. So 1/2 cock and loaded may also be a option. In the end how long does it really take to rack the slide....1/2 of 1/2 of a second? With proper tranning it should not make that much of a difference in draw time.
I think what some of us are forgetting here is that WE ARE THE SAFTEY. If you have your finger on the trigger when you draw your weapon, it will go off. If you have your finger on the trigger when you rack the slide, it will go off!
How will a modern semi-auto handgun go off in "carry position" if it is carried in a proper holster? How long does it take to rack a slide (if you are able to employ both hands at the time you are being attacked) compared to a criminal with a cocked weapon? Will the difference in draw time make a difference then?
I'm glad to see by the poll that less than 3.5% are saying they are or will carry with the chamber empty. My guess would be it is mostly the less experienced shooters, or those that do not carry a concealed weapon much that are making that decision (except for the one guy that may be Israeli trained lol).
Everone is entitled to their opinion, and I doubt this discussion will change any minds. I've seen "Murphy's Law" in action in real life situations too many times. Will your hands by wet from food, drink, rain, perspiration, when you need to rack the slide? Will you be engaged in fending off an attacker with a weapon with one hand? Will there be more than one attacker? Will the attacker have a loaded, ready to go firearm? Even if we try to go through life totally aware of our surroundings, we can be taken by surprise. The criminals that we carry do defend ourselves and families from will do everything possible to prevent us from having time to react. I hope we don't have to test our theories.
I think what some of us are forgetting here is that WE ARE THE SAFTEY. If you have your finger on the trigger when you draw your weapon, it will go off. If you have your finger on the trigger when you rack the slide, it will go off!
How will a modern semi-auto handgun go off in "carry position" if it is carried in a proper holster? How long does it take to rack a slide (if you are able to employ both hands at the time you are being attacked) compared to a criminal with a cocked weapon? Will the difference in draw time make a difference then?
I'm glad to see by the poll that less than 3.5% are saying they are or will carry with the chamber empty. My guess would be it is mostly the less experienced shooters, or those that do not carry a concealed weapon much that are making that decision (except for the one guy that may be Israeli trained lol).
Everone is entitled to their opinion, and I doubt this discussion will change any minds. I've seen "Murphy's Law" in action in real life situations too many times. Will your hands by wet from food, drink, rain, perspiration, when you need to rack the slide? Will you be engaged in fending off an attacker with a weapon with one hand? Will there be more than one attacker? Will the attacker have a loaded, ready to go firearm? Even if we try to go through life totally aware of our surroundings, we can be taken by surprise. The criminals that we carry do defend ourselves and families from will do everything possible to prevent us from having time to react. I hope we don't have to test our theories.
Sorry Steve, but you just stepped off the deep end. I already acknowledged that I will be, fractionally mind you, slower than a condition 1 carry. I can live with that 25% of a second. It doesn't embarass me. We agree on these points, now you're just banging your head against the wall. :banghead:
But saying that unchambered carry means that I will probably die? Now you're just a gun nut.
Rich, I basically agree with you. I agree that there are scenarios where this could put me at a meaningful disadvantage. There are unforeseen situations that will completely throw you off and take you by surprise. I would simply point out that some unforeseen complications and surprises which are not prepared for can also increase the risk of a ND, so I go for the added safety. We're both preparing for surprise complications, just different ones and in a different way.
LaEscopeta
Member
"When everyone is thinking the same, someone is not thinking"
Gen. George S. Patton
rich52us
Member
I would simply point out that some unforeseen complications and surprises which are not prepared for can also increase the risk of a ND, so I go for the added safety.
ND when? Doing what? You didn't quote the part where I said basically that if you have your finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire the weapon, it will go off as a ND. What I'm finally gettin is, you don't trust your gun handling skill and training under stress. If that's the way you feel, I guess you're right for you.
ND when? Doing what? You didn't quote the part where I said basically that if you have your finger on the trigger before you are ready to fire the weapon, it will go off as a ND. What I'm finally gettin is, you don't trust your gun handling skill and training under stress. If that's the way you feel, I guess you're right for you.
mpmarty
Member
I carry IWB at 2 o'clock aka appendix carry. I keep a round in the chamber and full mag and know for a fact that my DAO Taurus will never suffer an ND as it's a PT145 mil pro without any precock BS the striker is fully relaxed until I pull the trigger. I used to be so anal that I also put the 1911 type safety on also but quit that when I decided to practice some weak hand draws where I assumed I had lost the use of my strong hand. I discovered it was very difficult to release the safety with the weak hand only. To all of you who carry an empty chamber, next time you're in an elevator, pretend the guy in there with you just pulled a knife and came at you from three feet away. Whatcha gonna do now?
That's not what I said. You're talking all about unforeseen surprises. So am I.
What I'm trying to get across to you is that this door swings both ways. I keep hearing so many people say that they don't trust their ability to rack a slide under stress. Your exact same statement, quoted above, can be made about them.
- Status
