Do you support ANY gun-control laws?

Do you support ANY gun-control laws?


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I did that for my dad why not?

Same here. "Ride your bike down to the store and get me a pack of Pall Mall's".

And you know what? It didn't take "legislators" to whip me if I did wrong, that was taken care of by parents.

So what some are saying is that we are at a point now where we can no longer be responsible for our OWN actions, we NEED the government to take care of us.

Yeah, that's pretty much the attitude that got us where we are today.


You're you stuck on "well if felons use to roam legally around the ole West with guns, why should that be any different today?"

Seriously guy, you need some help. You've been stuck on this felons in the 1800's thing for 3 days now, none of which I actually said.

It's time to let it go....
 
:D

This is getting kinda silly really.

If you can say out loud "I support anyone of any age and any background being able to purchase any type of weapon" then more power to you.

The rest of us will remain sane and debate those against legal firearm ownership in a logical and rational way. Those type of folks are out there in large numbers and the only way we are going to come out of a national debate with them successful is to use a rational mind not a emotional heart when debating them.
 
Ruggles, you said:

"So fully armed terrorist flown Apaches going toe to toe with USMC Super Cobras over Boston harbor seems like a OK ideal to you. I mean the Jarheads would win of course but if few hundred citizens were killed in the crossfire so be it? I mean if Ted Kennedy went down I think most of us would be OK with that but barring him I really do not see this as a OK thing."


I appreciate the jab at ol' Ted-Head :D

However, I think this illustrates what I see as the hitch in your logic. When you mention a "fully armed terrorist" you are presuming criminal intent, which is precisely why you are advocating a prior restraint on the right to own said helicopter.

The point is that the only reason we believe in and value liberty is because we operate on the belief that the vast majority of people are, by nature, "good". If this weren't the case/belief, a system of ordered liberty would be far less desirable than a highly-regulated authoritatrian state.

The argument for regulating access to arms is that people will choose to do evil with them. Some, undoubtedly, will. However, such individuals are in the minority, and if they possess such raw, evil intent, regulation will do little to deter them. I mean, is a man who is already planning a murder or armed robbery going to be prevented from carrying this out because the penalty for him fraudulently or illegallly acquiring a weapon is suddenly an effective deterrent?

When we give the government the power to start presuming guilt or criminal intent on the part of private citizens, we undermine the whole argument/reason for liberty in the process, and invite it to regulate every facet of our lives with prior restraints on our behavior - just to see to it that those of us who were always going to "beahve" continue to do so.

The trade-off, in terms of individual liberty, is not worth the illusion of additional safety.
 
If you can say out loud "I support anyone of any age and any background being able to purchase any type of weapon" then more power to you.

That's not the message.

The message is that those of sufficient age of consent and with all rights intact should be able to have unrestricted access to firearms with no gun control laws in place.

And, I have yet to see one single argument with any validity at all to counter that.

All I see are "what about nukes" and "what about 10 time felons" which are not included in that statement in the first place. No real discussion.
 
I dont understant the thinking here, you take your gun to a ffl with the purchaser, you transfer the gun to the ffl and the ffl sels it to the buyer. Where did you mis this? It does not mean he does not suport anything or not as he is still selling his property. Or for that matter transfer it to a family member.

OK, then I assume you have no issue with "papers" needed for interstate travel, sobriety checkpoints, (hey, if I'm not drinking, I have nothing to worry about), wire taps or BATF visits w/o probable cause (4th amendment is 2 after the big one, so it's less important anyway), etc... We have "what's wrong with common sense laws" ourselves into near federal domination. I wonder how many "good Ideas" it takes for damn near everything to become illegal or restricted. I do not need nor do I agree to be backgound checked to buy a legal weapon from a willing individual. It was not and is not the place of the FEds to do it at any level, individual or otherwise. Take your case to your state legislature if you are consumed with concern. Good luck getting any traction in Texas. If you do, their is always room for me in Alaska----
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you take your gun to a ffl with the purchaser, you transfer the gun to the ffl and the ffl sels it to the buyer

actually Eric, it's even easier than that. The buyers pays me, the FFL charges me a transfer fee, the FFL charges the buyer a transfer fee and poof, done. (provided they pass the background check).
 
Wright/Rossi/Daly wrote "Under The Gun", a study of violent crime and firearms in Florida. Statisticians, they began as gun-neutral or mildly anti. The primary conclusion was that no gun control law ever passed by the state of Florida had ever affected the rate of violent crimes involving handguns.

Age, felony background, mental stability, whatever: The passage of a law does not PREVENT anything. It merely provides for some punishment for behavior which is already against the law.

As far as "infringed": The proponents of the Second Amendment publicly stated that those of unsound mind and those of "ill repute" would not be allowed to keep and bear arms. I take it from the word usage that "ill repute" meant those whom today we call felons. However, remember that some 230 years back, your neighbors as a group had more control over your rights than they do today. "Community standards" had teeth.

No law yet devised can keep people from getting anything they want, so long as they have the money to buy or the will to steal. Guns, drugs, whatever.

It doesn't matter what I like or don't like; I just have one question: What's the point of any law which does not achieve its alleged purpose?
 
"Same here. "Ride your bike down to the store and get me a pack of Pall Mall's".

And you know what? It didn't take "legislators" to whip me if I did wrong, that was taken care of by parents.

So what some are saying is that we are at a point now where we can no longer be responsible for our OWN actions, we NEED the government to take care of us.

Yeah, that's pretty much the attitude that got us where we are today."

It's a different world, for better or for worse (I think worse BTW) it is. What worked 200, 100 or 50 or even 25 years ago will not work to day in all cases.

I understand your reluctance to compromise anymore, a part of me even agrees with it. End of the day the truth is that there is a national debate on the horizon and if we as gun owners go into it unwilling to compromise on anything the outcome will be worse for us IMO.

I do not want anymore gun laws, heck I would like to lose a number of them. I also do not want to live in a world where a crazy convicted felon can go to ACE Hardware and buy a couple of fragmentation grenades to toss into my kids school bus. How that makes me anti 2ndA I do not know.
 
The question is "Do you support any gun control laws" and therefore I would reluctantly have to say "yes". For example, I don't think a five year old kid should be able to walk into a gun shop and purchase a firearm the same way they can purchase a bag of lollies. Is it infringing that kid's 2nd ammendment rights? Probablly, but I'm willing to live with that. Likewise for convicted violent felons. That being said, I don't support restrictions for all felons because I'm not convinced that tax dodgers or internet pedophiles are necessarily more predisposed to commit violence with a firearm. I'm also tempted to support laws requiring a check of mental health records but even there I still need more convincing on just how effective it would be. Beyond that, I'm opposed to pretty much every restriction on the right to keep and bear arms.
 
I am sure the world is full of convicted sex offenders who did nothing more than take an innocent pee....

I'm still trying to figure out why Ruggles is worried about the poor guy above owning a firearm??? Who would have thought peeing in public would lead someone on a murderous rampage later in life???
 
OK, then I assume you have no issue with "papers" needed for interstate travel, sobriety checkpoints, (hey, if I'm not drinking, I have nothing to worry about), wire taps or BATF visits w/o probable cause (4th amendment is 2 after the big one, so it's less important anyway), etc...
the only thing I dont have a problem with is the sobriety check points, diffrent form for that though. I was mearly making a post of how to transfer guns with a background check, its the safest way to go, after all it is illegal to sell a gun to a felon. How else are you suposed to know? I have never heard of a person in va making a f/f transaction being charged with this but the law is on the books. Right wrong or indiffrent that is how it is.
 
I also do not want to live in a world where a crazy convicted felon can go to ACE Hardware and buy a couple of fragmentation grenades to toss into my kids school bus.

Do you know how little effort it would take to do that with all legal off the shelf components easily purchased today?

Look what that sick nutcase McVeigh did in Oklahoma, with fertilizer.

What you are saying is that somehow if the tool was accessible easily it, on it's own, creates a desire to do evil.

If I sit a loaded gun on the coffee table you believe that someone will come along, see it there, and have an uncontrollable desire to go shoot up a school.

Do you realize what you are saying, that the inanimate object itself has some control over humans to make them do criminal things?

That makes sense to you?
 
We have "what's wrong with common sense laws" ourselves into near federal domination.

funny, that's what anarchists say. They hate gov't.

I do not need nor do I agree to be backgound checked to buy a legal weapon from a willing individual. It was not and is not the place of the FEds to do it at any level, individual or otherwise.

umm, my history book says it was the Feds who instituted the Constitution :) So i think the feds have a fair say in this debate:eek:

We have "what's wrong with common sense laws" ourselves into near federal domination.

yeah this country sucks, living in Cuba or Russia, heck even Pakistan is better than living in the US:rolleyes:

we have it pretty good here compared to other countries, even gun toting, leave the military rifle at home, Switzerland. Our gun laws are pretty liberal and lax, so I don't see why you are complaining.
 
"The trade-off, in terms of individual liberty, is not worth the illusion of additional safety."

I could not disagree more. Where that line (between personnel liberty and the safety of society) is drawn is an ongoing and ever changing debate. Ben Franklin was a very smart man.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I agree with this fully but the examples you gave are way out of this context. I guess the debate here lies with what is defined as essential liberty.
 
I dont understant the thinking here, you take your gun to a ffl with the purchaser, you transfer the gun to the ffl and the ffl sels it to the buyer. Where did you mis this? It does not mean he does not suport anything or not as he is still selling his property. Or for that matter transfer it to a family member.

This is so rich it deserves more comment. Bottom line is this: Your position assumes this is a GOVERNMENT PROVIDED RIGHT, and as such any common sense provsions THEY deem prudent can be imposed. The constitution provides no rights. It creates no rights. It establishes no rights. It RECOGNIZES and PROTECTS PRE-EXISTING rights. Protects from whom???? The very government you are looking to for PROTECTION. Now that this pandoras box of Federal protection is open, what are you going to do when they decide others need protection from you, particularly what you keep in your gun safe? No reason to complain, after all--it is their right to give, right? Wrong.
 
I am sure the world is full of convicted sex offenders who did nothing more than take an innocent pee....
unless you did more than that you should not have been convicetd as a sex offender. can any one show me a case where a person got branded as a sexoffender for public urination? I know I...er um my friend just got a simple ticket for it
 
"Do you know how little effort it would take to do that with all legal off the shelf components easily purchased today?

Look what that sick nutcase McVeigh did in Oklahoma, with fertilizer.

What you are saying is that somehow if the tool was accessible easily it, on it's own, creates a desire to do evil.

If I sit a loaded gun on the coffee table you believe that someone will come along, see it there, and have an uncontrollable desire to go shoot up a school.

Do you realize what you are saying, that the inanimate object itself has some control over humans to make them do criminal things?

That makes sense to you?"

Where exactly do you end that train of though? At what point do you draw the line or should all objects be legally obtainable for anyone?
Maybe we just draw it at different points, or maybe you simply have nowhere where you draw the line.
 
Protects from whom???? The very government you are looking to for PROTECTION. Now that this pandoras box of Federal protection is open, what are you going to do when they decide others need protection from you, particularly what you keep in your gun safe? No reason to complain, after all--it is their right to give, right? Wrong.
congrats, you have taken common sense well beyond common sense now. I congraduate you on your ability to twist what I say into something else. All I have said is simple common sense laws hurt nothing. Children do not need the ability to BUY a gun Violent criminals do not need to posses a gun. The whole paper work thing is my personal guarentee that I am not making myself into a criminal by selling to a felon/violent criminal. I think it should be an option, A freedom to choose to CYA or take the risk of making what could be a very costly misteak. I hope that clears it up for you.
 
At what point do you draw the line or should all objects be legally obtainable for anyone?
Maybe we just draw it at different points, or maybe you simply have nowhere where you draw the line

What I am saying is the same thing I've said all along, that laws in and of themselves do not stop crime.

That a motivated criminal will find a way, and a tool, to carry out whatever it is they want to do.

Laws stop honest people, that's about it.

All laws do with people that are intent on committing a crime is increase the punishment.

Gun laws do not reduce crime.

Crime can be reduced by honest and law abiding men fighting back. Yet, we read here in this thread about how the means to fight back should be restricted.
 
umm, my history book says it was the Feds who instituted the Constitution So i think the feds have a fair say in this debate

Then read a better record of History. Our founding fathers wrote the constitution as a guarantor of pre-existing rights against the encroachment of Government. The fact that you read otherwise, presumably in public school, is the reason these rights could be gone in a single generation without the hard work & diligence of everyone of us.

yeah this country sucks, living in Cuba or Russia, heck even Pakistan is better than living in the US

If we walk down the same road, we will get to the same place. I agree we are not there yet, but you are naive to not think we are well on the way.
 
Well thanks texasrifleman, I cant open the first link so I wont comment on that, but the second one is not a law or a case yet, but it could be. In any case it should not be a sexcrime to take a leak unless one is blatently wagging their stuff at folks.
 
"I'm still trying to figure out why Ruggles is worried about the poor guy above owning a firearm??? Who would have thought peeing in public would lead someone on a murderous rampage later in life???"

Never said I was. What percent of convicted sex offenders would fall into this category would you say? I would guess it would be well under .05%. Again with the extreme examples you are trying to use it appears
you are out of logical defense for sex offenders being able to legally own firearms.


Your defense of convicted sex offenders is a mystery to me as well.
 
Ruggles,

I think we've both articulated our points, so for once I'll try to stifle my desire to go 'round and 'round.

Suffice it to say that I think my view is more consistent with the intent of the founders - at least some of the more "radically" libertarian gentlemen. That is not to say that originalism is the ONLY acceptable means of Constitutional interpretation, I just see it as the most valid - and this is doubtless at least informed by my inherent political inclination.

However, I must add that, while circumstances - paricularly our material circumstances - have changed greatly over 200 years, this is far too often used/abused by people who espouse the "living, breathing" side of Constitutional "scholarship", who exclaim "the founders couldn't possibly have foreseen issues like assault weapons, illegal immigration, etc."

I contend that those cirsumtances and issues are merely material, and not philosophically significant. The founders did not and could not have foreseen every techological advance that we would ever have the luxury of enjoying, or the way in which cheap and rapid transportation and communication would change the way in which people interact. In my mind, however, they understood damn near everything there was and is to know about the fundamental nature of both people and governments.

If our efforts at "bettering" our society, legislatively or otherwise, were focused on the fundamental truths of human nature so keenly understood (better than we do) by the founders, as opposed to material objects and cirsumstances, we'd be much better off - both in terms of our liberty and our material circumstances.
 
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