Drew down on a Stranger in My Back Yard

[taliv]

i'm not following you. if his actions wouldn't be legal in any state in the union, then why would it be the biggest reach in history for a DA to do something?


nobody's saying mike can't carry on his own property. it's the pointing that's out of bounds

 

[gremlin_bros]

well personally many people are overlooking the part where capt mike states the person hat to climb over the fence to get in. this shows the whole back yard is fenced in and that access is restricted. so climbing over or under the fence may constitute breaking and entering or at least trespassing so he defended his home the same as if the person had entered his house unlawfully.

did he overreact? maybe but i would hate to have to prosecute this one if i were a lawyer. for me this one point of the yard being fenced in makes it a very tough call. but i bet the pool guy knocks first from now on which he should have done in the first place.

 

[Terrierman]

This is the first thread I've read on THR and my first post here. I may be wrong, I frequently am, but my BS detector is going off big time on Captain Mike's whole story. Who in their right mind would leave a perfectly good house that probably has a wealth of much better weaponry in it, and certainly a phone to call the cops before leaving that perfectly good house, with ONLY a .45 and a dog if they ever thought there was a single iota of a possibility of a serious confrontation? No one, that's who. I say BS it's a fantasy. Now if I'm wrong and Captain Mike is Captain Mike, LAPD or something and his word is golden, then dip me in s**t, roll me in crackers and fry me to a golden brown...

 

[roo_ster]

I don't know enough of CPT Mike's situation to condemn and I am not willing to make facts to bolster my opinion like, "if I saw him lugging pool chemicals I would just wach from inside."

I may not have done exactly as CM did, but I am not going to say he did wrong.

Applying this to my situation, I have a 6' wood privacy fence. The only way it can be unlocked is from the inside. If I saw someone jump my fence, given that it is posted for dogs, you can be sure I would be out there with 1911 in hand making sure Mr. Fencejumper was not up to no good.

Even though I live in a "good" neighborhood, we still have had problems in the back alley. One night someone sprayed battery acid on my neighbor's dogs and another time somebody vandalized his back gate & light. Nope, I'm not going to stand by and let someone torture my dogs (they are all bark, no bite) without a squabble.

I have cleared the house and my back yard many times after hearing a bump in the night.

Oh, one last thing...ring the doorbell & knock on the door like you're a cop serving a warrant. If nobody answers, THEN go jump the fence & do your business.

 

[taliv]

even if he's trespassing, does a backyard fence have the same legal protection as inside your home?

 

[Warren]

What if this happened in Texas at night? I know pool boys don't come around at night, but please go with the "what if" on this.

Could CPT Mike have shot him?

I'm not going to second guess him here. I'll just say I would not have moved towards the threat. I would have stayed hidden, and let the dog discuss it with the fellow. After I saw the dude's reaction to that I would have made my next move.

A series of similar incidents happened to people I worked with:

A way back when I delivered pizzas in my hometown, (pre-computerized order-taking system, thus no way to store important info about an address) there was this one address that ordered infrequently enough so that not everybody understood that the house could not be accessed from the front yard. It was a back house and only had alley access.

However the mailbox was out front and there was a walkway leading to a gate that led into the back yard of the front house. So it looked like that was how you got back there. Which would make sense as this was the USUAL way things were done.

So what transpired several times was the delivery guy would exit his vehicle and seeing "back house" on his order slip start up the path to the gate. Upon reaching the gate he would find it locked and would spend a bit of time with his hand over the top of the gate looking to see if it was just stuck.

It was at this time that the resident of the front house would come out with a shotgun, point it at the hapless pizza guy and demand to know *** was going on. He would then flash his badge. Turns out he was an LT with the local PD.

I could understand this happening once, but it happened numerous times. How after the first time could the dude not look out and see the car with the gi-normous brightly lit pizza sign and then look to see some schlub in a brightly contrasting pizza place uni and not understand *** was going on? He was a total tool about it.

None of our guys called the cops on him because he was a cop and since he worked for the agency that would have responded we didn't think we would get anywhere legally and may even gotten our guy arrested for trespassing if we pushed it.

I gotta know though, should someone have been called?

 

[gremlin_bros]

even if he's trespassing, does a backyard fence have the same legal protection as inside your home?

and this is where it gets sticky and i would advise going to the city or county prosecutor and asking about this situation informing him of all details for future reference.

 

[torpid]

I think that this thread should be retitled "Oops, I drew down on the Pool Guy this morning".


.

 

[Mad Chemist]

That swimming pool nearly got an innocent man killed. Do you have any idea how many children are killed by pool accidents every year. Something must be done. The government should begin restricting swimming pools immediately.

Sorry I couldn't help it.

Drawing down and holding someone at gunpoint for a possible tresspass during the daylight hours seems a little excessive. If he was attempting to enter a structure, acting in a threatening manner, or refusing to ID himself, then I would agree with the action taken.

Without any imminent threat apparent, I would open the door with weapon in hand but hidden from view. This is assuming that I can see the trespassers hands of course. If someone can draw from concealment and fire on me before I can respond with my unholstered and readied gun then he is either the Flash or a trained assasin. I don't expect either one to show in my back yard any time soon.

JH

 

[torpid]

If someone can draw from concealment and fire on me before I can respond with my unholstered and readied gun then he is either the Flash or a trained assasin. I don't expect either one to show in my back yard any time soon...

...to clean my pool.


.

 

[warwagon]

Pool guy

I had a simuilar experience a number of years ago.At home with the wife,when she tells me some man is in the back yard, looking in the window at her in the kitchen.

Sceneraio: fenced yard, apx 20:00 hrs(dark in the spring here),off duty cop, working narcotics detail at the time.

Result: while she notified the neighbors(close friends&back up),crossed in the front of the house, through the neighbors yard, then back over my fence. Spot the intruder,leval 12 ga , and give the comand.

He responds "meter reader!"


Local PD arrives, takes subject into custody(they do not read meters after 18:00 here), contacts power &light, verify employment there.

End result:no prosecution in the incident(although he did become unemployed the following day)

At that time I felt justified in my actions,30 years later I would choose a different course of action.In my state you may not use deadly force to protect property.Yet at the same time , if I felt threatened today, who knows?

 

[epijunkie67]

Whenever we discuss drawing our weapons for self defense one of the first things that comes up is wether we feel ourselves to be in danger or not. In this scenario I'd have to ask, how was this self defense? If you are in the house and spot someone in your yard why not just lock the door and call the police? You can keep this stranger under observation from the window and keep the cops informed about the situation.

I know people here frequently gripe about the police but they CAN be a valid response to a tactical situation. Sure, if the guy was trying to kick in the door then by all means bring out the artillery. But in broad daylight with the perp outside and you inside why escalate the situation?

I try to avoid confrontation as much as possible and my technique might not be the best for everyone. And yeah, if the guy had walked into my house instead of my yard I'd draw on him in a heartbeat. But I think this might have been a bit of an over reaction.

 

[pete f]

My detector is clicking.

DID you call police before going into the back yard? why not?

Was there something in his demeanor or appearance that made him seem threatening?

was he looking in windows, did you have cars out front, or other signs you might have been home?

I would have called cops first then observed. Perhaps i would have unholstered my weapon, while in the house. I would have let the dog bark growl and seen his reaction. BGs generally get real squirrley when dig dogs start attack barking.

Had he moved toward the house while looking all around, etc as if he was hoping to detect witness's before attempting to slim jim the slider door, I would have released the dog and presented arms against him.

After the event was over and it was proven to be a false alarm. I would have called his boss before he got the chance and said, hey this is what happened and why i am upset.

 

[Cosmoline]

ok... i'll bite

what did he do that justified threat of deadly force?

something wrong with shouting "get the *bleeep* out of my yard" from the kitchen window?

Entering the back yard with no call or even a shout, by hopping over a fence. That will get you killed in this territory.

DID you call police before going into the back yard? why not?

Why? It's YOUR BACK YARD. And it's FENCED. You have every right to take them into custody and call the cops.

A fenced back yard is no different from your living room. If someone hops through your window and starts looking at your stuff do you hide in the other room and hope they don't have a lethal weapon?

 

[280PLUS]

FWIW

I have been a Heating and A/C tech for 25 years and I go to new people's houses regularly. I would NEVER enter any premises or back yard without first ringing the doorbell and then knocking to make sure the doorbell wasn't broken. The pool guy was way out of line by just admitting himself to Mike's backyard without first announcing himself. ESPECIALLY IF HE'S HOPPING THE FENCE! It sounds like he's a newbie to me and learned a valuable lesson that day. He could have just as easily stumbled into a much less understanding DOG by just hopping over the fence without taking any precautions. Of course, if the dog then mauls him we all know who's homeowner insurance is going to pay up and then cancel the policy.

 

[USMCRotrHed]

Next time

I bet there is a pool guy who will live to find another job someday. If he learns anything, he will always knock before he goes into anyones yard and will therefore never put himself in danger of being mistaken for a turd (criminal).

 

[orionengnr]

thanks for quoting the second half

of my post, while nicely ignoring the first half.

Restated:

Where in the original post is there anything to indicate that this is a pool boy? Uniform? Chemicals? Marked vehicle? Hint: it's not there.

Did you read the part about the locked gate and jumping the fence?
What would a "reasonable person" conclude, given these facts (and no others)?

Once agin, Monday Morning Quarterbacking, after the fact, after you know he's a pool boy, changes everything.

The original post described a stranger appearing unannounced and uninvited into a locked backyard. Nothing more. Go back and read it again.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I think pointing the gun at him was a little extreme, but won't fault you much for it. I mean, its your backyard, and he breached a locked gate. I bet he has learned an imortant lesson.

This guy needs to let home owners know when he will be in their yards, if for no other reason than to be sure there isnt a man-eating pit bull in the back that will chew his legs off.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Finger on the trigger, safety off, gun pointed at someone who wasn't a threat?

You need some training.

 

[280PLUS]

I likely would've eye-balled him from the window for a moment or two then slipped my .38 snubbie in my hip pocket (already have the Taurus 450 on my ankle) and *then* I would've walked out to make sure that things were cool.

Ah the beauty of the pocket pistol. All you have to do is keep your hand in your pocket looking and acting non chalant but meanwhile it's already in your hand hidden from view. I don't leave home without it...

 

[Biker]

Yup 280, hand in hip pocket, ready to draw smoothly (bobbed hammer) and no one is the wiser - or evacuating their bowels.
Biker

 

[TexasRifleman]

Yup 280, hand in hip pocket, ready to draw smoothly (bobbed hammer) and no one is the wiser - or evacuating their bowels.
Biker

Still too noticeable. I'd have just climbed onto the roof and taken him out from there. "Vote from the Rooftops" as the T-shirt says.......

 

[taliv]

Why? It's YOUR BACK YARD. And it's FENCED. You have every right to take them into custody and call the cops.

A fenced back yard is no different from your living room. If someone hops through your window and starts looking at your stuff do you hide in the other room and hope they don't have a lethal weapon?

39-11-614. Protection of property. - (a) A person in lawful possession of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

<snip>

(c) A person is not justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on real estate or unlawful interference with personal property.

IANAL, but this seems to say that even if they're trespassing, you can't use deadly force to remove them. Thus, the only defense in mike's case was if he reasonably believed that the guy in his yard posed an emminent threat to him while he was in his house before he escalated the situation.

when someone enters your HOUSE, it's reasonable to believe they're going to cause you harm. even when someone is clearly trespassing in your fenced yard, i doubt you'd convince any jury you were in fear for your life

 

[Mainsail]

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. YES the pool kid was wrong to have jumped the fence. (I don’t like the use of the word ‘breached’ since he didn’t knock it down or force it open.) He was wrong, it was a dumb thing to do, he’ll likely not do it again.

His ‘wrong’ was not in any way, shape, or form an excuse to point a loaded gun at him.

The rules as they were taught to me (and I teach to others) are:
We don’t draw a weapon unless there is a genuine threat to our lives or property.
We don’t point a weapon at anything we do not intend to destroy.
We keep our fingers out of the trigger guard until we’re ready to shoot.

A dog will run about the property and mark his territory. He will then expect all other creatures to respect the property line. When someone or something violates that line, they attack. It’s natural and instinctive for them to behave this way. Humans (more so humans with deadly weapons) are supposed to have the reasoning skills to react with some manner of restraint.

 

[Phyphor]

Still too noticeable. I'd have just climbed onto the roof and taken him out from there. "Vote from the Rooftops" as the T-shirt says.......

Jeeze, you guys and your primitive high-risk methods for dealing with obviously dangerous tresspassing pool men!
Everyone knows the proper way for smiting such clear filth lies in the liberal application of claymore mines to one's yards, in such a manner as to completely surround ones home, facing outwards, of course.

Once the evil pool man / meter reader / girlscout troop is spotted, one should then trigger said hail of Claymores, and be prepared with a bagful of hand grenades to finish off any survivors.

Then you might consider transitioning to the shotgun/pistol.




(DISCLAIMER FOR THE HUMOR IMPAIRED: I'm just kidding... in all seriousness, someone standing in your yard should be verbally challenged, from cover, at minimum. Of course, from concealment is best, since if they ARE a BG, and can't see you, well, there's an obvious advantage... In any case, jamming out the door with a weapon in your hand isn't the best way to endear yourself to the pool cleaner / utilities companies... )