Drew down on a Stranger in My Back Yard

[280PLUS]

I don't know. I've read a good portion of this and I can't help thinking 911 was called. This must mean the police had to have been on the scene at some point. If the police didn't have any problem with the way Mike handled the situation and there is no indication they did, why do people here have a problem with it? Is it the way I would have handled the situation? Probably not but I'm not Capt Mike and I wasn't there in his shoes in his neighborhood. If your chances of meeting a crack addict jumping your fence are greatly ehanced in your neck of the woods, maybe a muzzle first approach is appropriate. I also know a bit more about his credentials from another post which tend to make me lean in his direction. He is not at all the way some here are trying to portray him. As a matter of fact you should be thrilled that someone of his stature even takes the time to come here and post.

The thought of having to lock the doors, call 911 and cower in a corner somewhere with my shotgun is somehow distasteful to me, sorry.

I stated earlier and I'll say it again. I do a similar job. I would NEVER enter anyone's premises without first doing everything I could to let the owner know I was present. WHY? Because I know full well that I certainly COULD find myself staring down the muzzle of some firearm AND IT WOULD BE MY FAULT!!

 

[Terrierman]

So you don't think it actually happened? Is it that you can't comprehend someone hopping over a fence or you don't believe anyone actually points a firearm at an intruder?.

That's right, I don't believe it actually happened, at least not as described. It's just beyond belief that anyone who feels threatened by a person outside the home would intentionally leave the home, armed only with a .45 and accompanied by a dog and proceed with a confrontation. Without so much as a 911 call before walking out the door! It makes no sense at all if you don't have grease for brains.

 

[PCGS65]

It was a scary thing. I wasn't looking for back pats gents, but I certainly expected a good bit more understanding of how scary it was to have a stranger breaking and entering our property when we weren't expecting it. No uniform, no announcement, no pool clearning tools, just an unexpected stranger lurking in the back yard near the back door. I'm Sorry to have even shared it at all, now.

Captain Mike you have done a great thing by making many of us think before hand "what would I do if"........Now we are all different and sitting calmly behihind a computer and second guessing after the facts are clear is easy.
I had a situation very similar to yours. Maybe I'll post it shortly but don't give up sharing your expieriences with THR members!!

 

[280PLUS]

That's right, I don't believe it actually happened, at least not as described. It's just beyond belief that anyone who feels threatened by a person outside the home would intentionally leave the home, armed only with a .45 and accompanied by a dog and proceed with a confrontation. Without so much as a 911 call before walking out the door! It makes no sense at all if you don't have grease for brains.

-1

Terrierman, you've been here what, 10 - 12 days now? Not a good way to start. IMHO of course.

Captain Mike you have done a great thing by making many of us think before hand "what would I do if"........don't give up sharing your expieriences with THR members!!

+1

 

[answerguy]

The stranger in the backyard was a complete stranger to any of us and he was lurking unannounced on our property near the back entry door in an area where home invasions have repeatedly resulted in seriouisly or fatally injured homeowners.

.

Missing info: he was near your back entry door, had he passed the pool?
Was he looking at the pool or was he looking at your back door or something else?

Also a question about your use of the word 'lurking'.

adjective
1 furtive, lurking, skulking, sneak(a), sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious

marked by quiet and caution and secrecy; taking pains to avoid being observed; "a furtive manner"; "a lurking prowler"; "a sneak attack"; "stealthy footsteps"; "a surreptitious glance at his watch"; "someone skulking in the shadows"

2 lurking

concealed and unsuspected; "lurking dangers"; "search for lurking ambiguities"

Was he truly 'taking pains to avoid being seen' in hindsight or was he just trying to figure the job he had been asigned to do?

Breaking and entering is defined as the crime of illegally entering a residence or other enclosed property using any amount of force (even pushing open an unlocked door). If criminal intent can be established, breaking and entering can be considered a burglary, a felony in most U.S. jurisdictions. If there is no criminal intent, breaking and entering can be considered trespassing, which is usually a misdemeanor crime.

Oops, no criminal intent was established.

 

[280PLUS]

Breaking and entering is defined as the crime of illegally entering a residence or other enclosed property using any amount of force (even pushing open an unlocked door).

Oops, no criminal intent was established.

That there was no criminal intent could only be established AFTER the fact. Technically the pool guy is illegally entering the property as far as I'm concerned. Nothing too legal about jumping someones fence without their prior knowledge, regardless of intent.

Another thing that has been learned here is, for all you other "pool guys" out there. Don't do this...

 

[eagle45]

First of all, thanks to Captain Mike for posting this in the first place. It certainly has been one of the most informative and interesting threads I've read in some time. The Monday morning quarterbacking is inevitable, though I don't think the tone of some of the posts was necessary. Just my $0.02.

I try relating this to my own situation at home. Where I live, home invasions are not uncommon at all and this would have been my first thought. This is not just in the larger cities, but even in the small villages in the rural areas where I am located where police response can be 10 to 15 minutes. These almost always involve more than one BG, and what often happens is while one person is knocking on the front door, others are ready to force their way in the back or side door.

My concern at my own property would be if I step outside, are there others out front? For me, the best defense situation would be to place myself where I can watch both entries, which is easy to do in my house. I wonder if Captain Mike was concerned about this, possibly others out front. However, none of my property is fenced, so if I were to go outside, I would have to watch my back as well.

I also wonder if there were any vehicles out front. I can usually hear anyone pulling up in the driveway and would have been much more concerned in this situation if no vehicle was visible or if there was a vehicle but it was not identifiable as the contractor's.

 

[Mainsail]

I don’t recall in any of the seven pages of posts that anyone suggested ‘cowering’ inside your house after calling 911. I guess that’s hyperbole, a weak argument at best.

Look at it this way, say the pool boy is supposed to go to 1265 Main Street, but inadvertently goes to your house at 1652 Main Street instead. He finds the gate locked and calls the homeowner. “That’s funny, I could swear I left it unlocked. Can you climb over?” Over he goes, into your backyard. In his mind the jump over is legal, he has permission. He is in a place he has the legal authority to be. Here you come running out with a gun like some TV cop show shouting at him. He sees you with the gun and draws his own CCW and there’s a shootout. In a stand-your-ground state he’s legal to shoot at you.

The last huge homeowner shooting that I can remember the press screaming about and lawmakers clamoring to enact new idiotic laws about was when a non-english speaking exchange student entered the wrong house and was gunned down by the homeowner. The homeowner was right to react the way he did, someone busting in the house in the middle of the night. But it was still a tragic mistake.

My point is that people make mistakes, they go to the wrong place with a delivery or whatever. Yes, you should be concerned if a stranger is in your backyard! Escalating the situation to the level of deadly force is something we will all decide on a personal level.

I guess it comes down to the degree of paranoia you feel. If you are so fearful and mistrustful of everyone then you are already cowering inside your home.

 

[Terrierman]

-1

Terrierman, you've been here what, 10 - 12 days now? Not a good way to start. IMHO of course.

+1

I'll keep holding off a few more days before saying what I REALLY think then.

 

[Pilot]

Monday morning quarterbacks who weren't even there always seem to find it quite easy to second-guess actions that take place in a matter of seconds, that's for sure. This time was no different.

He walked on your property, he didn't ENTER YOUR PREMISES". Inadvertantly walking on someone's property is not burglary as you state. Plus, as a vendor of yours, he is an implied INVITEE on your property. Did you take Agency Law in law school? Yes, you did, its required. You left the safety of your home to confront a non-threat. If this guy prosecutes at a minimum you will be accused of brandishing and assault.

 

[taliv]

I don't know. I've read a good portion of this and I can't help thinking 911 was called. This must mean the police had to have been on the scene at some point. If the police didn't have any problem with the way Mike handled the situation and there is no indication they did, why do people here have a problem with it?

i didn't read anywhere that even implied mike called 911. which page is that on?

 

[bruss01]

The stranger in the backyard was a complete stranger to any of us and he was lurking unannounced on our property near the back entry door in an area where home invasions have repeatedly resulted in seriouisly or fatally injured homeowners.

There was nothing in his behavior or actions or manner of dress to indicate he was a pool guy. Remember he was a stranger who had jumped our 6-foot high locked gate and didn't have a neon sign announcing his occupation and intentions. Heck if he had just bothered to announce himself in the first place or wore some kind of 'pool service' shirt or even brandished some pool cleaning equipment or a pool service company ID, it might have been obvious. But he did none of that. That's why he seemed like a threat, not a mere trespasser.

What he did do was to "break and enter" our property -- by illegally and surreptitiously and without permission-- crossing over a 6-foot high locked gated fence and into our property -- which constitutes burglary. From the side and back, he may have been able to enter further without a neighbor seeing him. His presence was only discovered by mere chance.

Remember that Burglary by its nature is an 'inherently dangerous felony' and armed response is justified, though no one looks forward to it. The adrenaline dump on both sides was not a particularly pleasant experience for either of us. I was scared but I couldn't wait several minutes for law enforcement to eventually arrive. Bottom line: threat posed by burglar confronted, identity established, no one bitten, no one hurt.

No one is perfect. No matter what actions any of us take, there's always other alternatives. But the safety of your family is not something to take lightly. And when you think a threat is no longer "outside" your property but within mere seconds of taking you by surprise, you take those actions you believe necessary for safety at the moment, not the ones that might later seem preferred when there's time to calmly think it over and consider what else might have been done. In the PSRK, if a stranger is breaking and entering (which is burglary) the homeowner is supposed to politely point to the gun-free zone sign, and then take the burglar milk and cookies so he's comfortable while everyone waits calmly 8 minutes for the cops to arrive on scene.

Monday morning quarterbacks who weren't even there always seem to find it quite easy to second-guess actions that take place in a matter of seconds, that's for sure. This time was no different.

Mike, if he didn't have any pool cleaning equipment, it's difficult to imagine he could be doing his job. What would be the point of going into the back yard with no means to clean the pool? How long did you observe? Was there something threatening about his appearance? Was the pool company truck parked out front? Was it the regularly scheduled pool cleaning day? I might be a tad miffed if I found one of the neighborhood teenagers in my back yard poking around the bushes, but he could easily be looking for a ball or frisbee that sailed over my fence. Yeah, it's wrong, but kids often don't think about legalities like trespassing, they just want their frisbee back.

I'm sorry, I'd have a hard time putting the crosshairs on someone who hadn't demonstrated criminal intent or produced some indication of threat. Simply being present in my yard without permission is irksome, but not inherently threatening without other aggravating circumstances. I could understand a man wanting a gun handy when confronting an intruder, but drawing on him? Inside the house it's another story altogether. Yes I'm MMQBing but I just wouldn't have felt that was the way to go.

 

[NineseveN]

This thread ranks right up there with the guy that took a few shots at teenagers in the middle of the night with his .45 when they tried to steal his raccoon feeder.

This one was almost as fun.

 

[PCGS65]

With no intentions of hijacking this thread.
Here is a similar situation I expierienced last summer.
Me my brother and his dog(a golden lab)were in my back yard enjoying a few cold ones talking about my brothers new S&W 500 mag he just bought. The gun is on my picknic table with some ammo but not loaded.

All of a sudden two young(late teens)minority people come running out the back door of my neighbors house grab two bicycles and head toward the back fence. Now I know my neighbor is still at work.

Now with my brothers dog going nuts and me thinking a burglary was just committed and being friends with my neighbor for 18+years. I tell my brother watch the gun in case there are more of them, and run to hop the fence to catch the BG's yelling what the do you think your doing. I stopped short of the fence to realize me with no weapons except my brother with the 500 mag still sitting on the table. Me getting cut or whatever then my brother blasting huge holes in the BG's is a bad situation for me and possibly my brother in a city where it's illegal to discharge a firearm. . BG's didn't know about the 500 mag. By now the 1 BG was over the fence with the other BG lifting the bicycle over the fence fast. With the BG's still high tailing it out of my neighbors yard I saw no threat and called the LEO's. Next I slowly went around the front of the house to see if there were more BG's and saw my neighbor had just got home. I explained to her what just happened and that I just called the police. It turns out my neighbors daughter had two friends over that ran out of the back door when mom came home.

The 500 mag sat on the table the whole time. Like I said it was summer I could see the BG's weren't carrying at least not a gun. Now all of this happened very fast, probably 45 seconds.

I know most of you are thinking see not threat no problem.
That's not what I/you would think when the situation is unfolding.

After, me and my brother laughed and joked about what could have happened. But all in all I think things turned out ok. It was a learning expierience for me because everybody dreams of catching a BG. But it's not always what you think.

 

[STAGE 2]

Many things to address here, and I'm surprised at many quite frankly so here goes...

If you are a lawyer than you must know that state laws concerning AWDW, unlawful use of a firearm, brandishing, unlawful arrest, etc., vary widely from state to state.

Which I clearly addressed if you would have read my entire post. I'm not advocating any legal advice for anyone. I am simply stating that in this case Mike's actions did not run afoul of any laws.

Again there is a distinction between what is legal and what is common sense. I'm not making a judgment upon whether what Mike did was sensible or not primarily because I'm not Mike and I wasn't there.

He walked on your property, he didn't ENTER YOUR PREMISES". Inadvertantly walking on someone's property is not burglary as you state. Plus, as a vendor of yours, he is an implied INVITEE on your property. Did you take Agency Law in law school? Yes, you did, its required. You left the safety of your home to confront a non-threat. If this guy prosecutes at a minimum you will be accused of brandishing and assault.

The issue you're referring to isn't covered in agency law its covered in torts. By contracting with the pool company Mike has made the company and their representatives invitees. However, the pool company is only an invitee WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE AUTHORITY GRANTED. This means there will be no pool cleanings at midnight, no parking of the company truck on the front lawn... etc.

Part of being an invitee is holding yourself out to be one. That means having your badge/ID carrying your equipment or doing something that would allow a reasonable person to think that you were acting under the invitation that Mike had granted.

In this case, hopping a locked fence with no ID and equipment invalidates this guys status as an invitee. As such from the reasonable person standpoint he was undoubtedly tresspassing.

As for brandishing and assault, that won't fly either. Mike has the right to openly carry on his property, so carrying the gun isnt an issue. Assuming that local laws are silent on the issue, Mike's actions dont amount to deadly force either.

Should a burglar come into your home and pick up your TV you have every right to draw and tell him to drop it (or nicely place it down on the table which would be preferable). You do NOT have the right to shoot. In most if not all states deadly force cannot be used to defend property. That does not mean that you have to let the burglar go with your TV or try and wrestle it from him. Drawing down on an intruder in of itself isn't deadly force. Shooting at or shooting someone is deadly force. Shooting with the intent to graze or just scare is deadly force. Drawing is not (see paragraph above for those that feel compelled to cut and paste their local laws.)

To summarize, the dude acted outside the scope of his authority, and Mike didn't violate any laws in defending his home. But in my view these arent the most important issues here.

Undoubtedly I'm going to irritate some people here by saying this but no man has the right to tell another man how to properly defend his home provided his actions are within the law. I'm not saying there isn't room for suggestion or critique, especially if its invited. However there is a huge difference between "I would have done it differently" and "dude, you're a complete moron rambo wannabe". No doubt to each his own because we are all different, but if its stupid but it works, its not stupid. You might not agree with Mike's actions, but it accomplishes his objective as well as anything else.

Secondly, for the just scare him away crowd. There is something to be said for having a bit of social responsibility. I'm not advocating anyone to be a neighborhood crusader. However if this guy would have been a burglar and Mike had responded with "get the **** out of my yard", or even just started walking towards him, theres probably a good chance he would have scrammed.

Instead, since people tend to get more responsive when staring at the business end, he detained a possible criminal which would have allowed for the police to come and make an arrest.

No doubt in such a case the police would have chewed him out, as they are want to do. Aside from that, however, nothing else would have happened.

Maybe I'm a bit idealistic, but as gun owners I feel that we have a responsibility to help out when and where we can if possible.

reply away

 

[XavierBreath]

Mike, I would have to disagree with your actions on this one.

I will not argue whether your actions were legal. In some states they would be, I suppose. I will argue whether your actions were prudent. No. In fact, I won't do that either. I respect you enough from your postings here to give you the benefit of the doubt there.

I assume you felt your life was in immediate danger, or you would not have acted as you did. If I felt my life was in danger from someone in my backyard, I'd arm myself with a shotgun and take up an ambush position. My life is more important than investigating trespassers in my backyard.

If you did not believe your life was in immediate danger, then you should carefully reconsider your actions and the fear that led you to resort to lethal force. Taking a life is forever. If you take a life, the only comfort available to ease the remorse is the knowledge that there was no other way. There were a lot of other ways on this one.

As a homeowner, I would have responded very differently. If I were the poolboy, I would have responded very differently as well.

 

[PCGS65]

Stage 2,
BTW laws in the city and county I live in considers possession(not actual use)of pepper spray,taser or "stun gun",firearms,knives,baseball bat(without a glove and ball) ect. to be unlawful use of said weapon, and if you use any of the above it's considered aggrivated use of said weapon.
Many other counties and towns/citys have the same laws.
Just thought I'd let you guys know. So check your local laws guys. Better safe than sorry.
Also there is a law in Illinois for look alike drugs. Yes you guessed it. If your'e caught with flour or sugar on the way home from the grocery store you can be arrested for felony possession of look alike drugs. Hell if you had a 5lb sack of each you could also be charged with intent to distribute.
A few years ago I called dad on christmas and he needed some flour to make the gravy for the turkey. So instead of bringing the 3-4lbs or so of flour I had to my dads I put several TBS in a baggie then thought "I can get 30yrs for this"but I made it to my dads and had a wonderful christmas.

 

[Pilot]

Stage 2,

To really find out the Pool Vendor status as an invitee or potential agent of the property owner (why I mentioned agency law) we would really have to review the agreement that the property owner signed with the Pool Vendor to see what lattitude the pool vendor has when entering to clean and maintain the pool. Without the signed agreement we are just guessing. This is irrespective of the judgment of the property owner to draw a gun on someone in his yard.

 

[taliv]

Mike has the right to openly carry on his property, so carrying the gun isnt an issue.

again, no one is arguing his right to open carry, or even drawing the weapon. it's the POINTING i take issue with.

 

[STAGE 2]

Stage 2,

To really find out the Pool Vendor status as an invitee or potential agent of the property owner (why I mentioned agency law) we would really have to review the agreement that the property owner signed with the Pool Vendor to see what lattitude the pool vendor has when entering to clean and maintain the pool. Without the signed agreement we are just guessing. This is irrespective of the judgment of the property owner to draw a gun on someone in his yard.

Well, yes and no. As a representative of the pool company, there is no question he is an invitee. However until he reveals that status to Mike, he is not, regardless of what the contract says. The law doesn't charge Mike to be a clairvoyant. Without any identification or any reasonable inference, the pool guy isn't an invitee till he announces or identifies his status as such.

 

[Phyphor]

<snip>

The thought of having to lock the doors, call 911 and cower in a corner somewhere with my shotgun is somehow distasteful to me, sorry.

So, you'd rather jump out the back door w/said shotgun, and just hope like hell there's only one BG? What if his buddies are over on the other side of the fence? You've just announced your position and the fact that you're armed. Most bad guys would probably run off at this point, but what if they don't?

 

[280PLUS]

Post #1

I demanded he prone out and when he did I had my dog 'Sit' while I start to call 911.

I presumed he finished the call. Maybe I'm wrong.

So, you'd rather jump out the back door w/said shotgun, and just hope like hell there's only one BG?

No actually I would most likely come out with my hands in my pocket, gun in hand but concealed and play the "Can I help you with something?" card. But that's just me.

 

[Biker]

No actually I would most likely come out with my hands in my pocket, gun in hand but concealed and play the "Can I help you with something?" card. But that's just me.[/QUOTE]
Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this approach?
Biker

 

[PCGS65]

No actually I would most likely come out with my hands in my pocket, gun in hand but concealed and play the "Can I help you with something?" card. But that's just me.

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this approach?
Biker[/QUOTE]
Biker, sarcasim

 

[Biker]

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this approach?
Biker

Biker, sarcasim[/QUOTE]
No that's not sarcasm. If, after doing a little recon from the window, I determined that the guy wasn't 'snaking' for Charlie Manson or some such, I'd quite likely take this avenue. It's reasonable, logical and I still have my big, white Scandanavian buttocks covered, without totally embarrasing myself and Pool Guy not to mention marking myself as a 'looney' to the responding LEOs.
Biker