Drew down on a Stranger in My Back Yard

[torpid]

CAPTAIN MIKE- looking upon it now, would you have done anything differently if you could?

.

 

[torpid]

Also, I got a bad vibe from the end of your first post- did you say anything to the effect of "sorry to scare you like that, you can see why I was alarmed"?

Or were you too annoyed because of his statement that he just unlocked the gate- hence the indignant tone?

.

 

[rbernie]

The stranger in the backyard was a complete stranger to any of us and he was lurking unannounced on our property near the back entry door in an area where home invasion have usually resulted in seriouisly or fatally injured homeowners.

There was nothing in his behavior or actions or manner of dress to indicate he was a pool guy.

But he was also not trying to enter the house where you were located. Yes, you have a right to protect your whole property, not just the house itself. But it was unsound practice to sally forth from the house to create a confrontation in the back yard when you had other less dramatic options. Certainly, calling out for him to leave the premises at once was probably an option. Asking him to state his business from across the yard might have been an option. Heck - if I do it right, I could cover my backyard with an AR from my back door without someone in the yard being the wiser.

--The man had no uniform
--The man was a stranger
--The man had jumped his fence
--The man had no obvious pool cleaning equipment.

From the account, there appeared no way of knowing what the man was. So it's not a question of throwing down on a pool cleaner. It's a question of throwing down on a fence hopping stranger UNTIL YOU FIGURE OUT why he's there. Big difference.

The point isn't that you don't have the right and obligation to protect your homestead - it's HOW its done that seems to be in question. If it could have been done in a less aggressive fashion and still retain the same degree of security - why should that also not be an option? And that's what I hear people suggesting; that there were ways to handle this situation that didn't require drawing a weapon and holding the man on the ground at gunpoint. It was a confrontational response, and what folks are trying to suggest is there were probably other options.

I tell you what - if I owned that pool company, the minute our contractual obligations were completed I'd be telling you to go find someone else to do your scut work. You contracted for someone to perform a service that requires them to enter your property during the day, during which time most pool owners are not at home and 'announcements' are NOT the norm (at least around here). There is an implicit contract in all of this that the pool service employees are invited onto your property as they can fit you into their daily schedule. This employee acted in accordance with standard practices for 99% of the jobs he performs, and you responded by threatening him with deadly force. No, sir - your money would NOT be welcome from that point forward.

There was no need to put the pool guy at the hot end of a .45, and there was no tactically sound reason to charge forth and meet the threat nose to nose before dialing 911.

Pretty much sounds that way to me. But I will admit that I wasn't there...

 

[Johnny_Yuma]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot
I just checked Captain Mike's Bio and he indicates he is an attorney and CCW instructor.


Which is why I feel confident that he not only acted well within the bounds of the law(for his location) but also made sure his response made sense tactically.

Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

 

[Biker]

Fact is, Captain Mike, more details would've been helpful in the beginning. Secondly, if you didn't want any MMQBing, why post this tale in the first place?
Were you just looking for 'back pats' or illustrating how not to handle a situation?
Ya gotta wonder...
Biker

 

[Johnny_Yuma]

An attorney, who has a pool, hires a pool-boy, lives

The stranger in the backyard was a complete stranger to any of us and he was lurking unannounced on our property near the back entry door in an area where home invasions have repeatedly resulted in seriouisly or fatally injured homeowners.

in a neighborhood where home invasions have repeatedly resulted in serious injuries or fatalities to the owners? I smell Bull????.

Monday morning quarterbacks who weren't even there always seem to find it quite easy to second-guess actions that take place in a matter of seconds, that's for sure. This time was no different.

I WASN'T there. I have an excellent first-hand description of your actions to base my negative opinion on. Consider your seminal post to be "statements against your own interests." The only thing that might have made your post worse would be if you had stuck the barrel of your weapon in his mouth and said "Make like that's a nipple."

JY

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Final Thoughts

It was a scary thing. I wasn't looking for back pats gents, but I certainly expected a good bit more understanding of how scary it was to have a stranger breaking and entering our property when we weren't expecting it. No uniform, no announcement, no pool clearning tools, just an unexpected stranger lurking in the back yard near the back door. I'm Sorry to have even shared it at all, now.

 

[Cosmoline]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with drawing on a stranger who's jumped your fence without permission until you can figure out who he is or why he is there. A fenced back yard is NOT a public place and you should not be beholden to the police to come clear your own yard for you. If your back yard is a public place, with people freely coming and going at all hours, obviously that's a different matter. Maybe in Idaho people leaping over the backyard fence are met with open arms. But methinks old Elmer would not have hesitated to greet a man who had lept his fence in Salmon with a drawn sixgun. Things have apparently changed in Idaho since then.

 

[Cosmoline]

Captain Mike--there's a certain cadre of folks on this board who make a habit of claiming any reported incident is a lie. Because as they know, nothing bad ever happens in this world. Nobody *really* jumps over fences. Nobody *really* robs or kills.

 

[Cosmoline]

There seems to be some misunderstanding here. YES the pool kid was wrong to have jumped the fence. (I don’t like the use of the word ‘breached’ since he didn’t knock it down or force it open.) He was wrong, it was a dumb thing to do, he’ll likely not do it again.

His ‘wrong’ was not in any way, shape, or form an excuse to point a loaded gun at him.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT CRIME AND PUNISHMENT, PEOPLE! IT IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS AN INNOCENT POOL BOY OR NOT!

It is about THE REASONABLE BELIEF OF THE HOMEOWNER BEFORE HE KNOWS WHAT THE MAN IS DOING THERE. A homeowner who sees a stranger with no uniform and no pool tools leap his fence and start sneaking around his back yard may REASONABLY BELIEVE that the man poses a very real threat. Leaping a fence and going onto private property is MUCH MORE LIKELY to be the precursor to a home invasion than the precursor to a pool cleaning or home appliance delivery!

I delivered appliances for many years, and never ONCE did I feel I had authority to start leaping fences or forcing open windows.

Pointing a firearm at him until the situation is clarified is NOT UNREASONABLE. Indeed the only reasonable choices are to either do that or to call the police and flee. Walking out, unarmed or with only a CCW to confront the man is IDIOTIC. If he is a goblin, you can expect to DIE. I hope the folks who haven't lived long enough to learn this will never have to learn it the hard way.

 

[sgratra]

It was a scary thing. I wasn't looking for back pats gents, but I certainly expected a good bit more understanding of how scary it was to have a stranger breaking and entering our property when we weren't expecting it. No uniform, no announcement, no pool clearning tools, just an unexpected stranger lurking in the back yard near the back door. I'm Sorry to have even shared it at all, now.

The threat didn't transfer across in your first description. But I still agree with your actions

All of the guys that are resorting to ad hominem attacks should keep to themselves. I recognize that since you are a CCW & instructor, it's different when you actually have to walk what you talk, unlike people like me who can simply throw their opinions around.

Whatever, I am sincerely appreciative of CAPTAINS post.

 

[Gunsnrovers]

Pointing a firearm at him until the situation is clarified is NOT UNREASONABLE. Indeed the only reasonable choices are to either do that or to call the police and flee. Walking out, unarmed or with only a CCW to confront the man is IDIOTIC. If he is a goblin, you can expect to DIE. I hope the folks who haven't lived long enough to learn this will never have to learn it the hard way.

Sounds like a perfect explanation if your someone with only 1 tool in the tool chest.

 

[Terrierman]

Pointing a firearm at him until the situation is clarified is NOT UNREASONABLE. Indeed the only reasonable choices are to either do that or to call the police and flee. Walking out, unarmed or with only a CCW to confront the man is IDIOTIC. If he is a goblin, you can expect to DIE. I hope the folks who haven't lived long enough to learn this will never have to learn it the hard way.

Strongly disagree. Walking out of the house to confront someone with a .45 and a dog is the unreasoned and idiotic move IMHO. So unreasonable and so idiotic that I still say BS to the whole story. Much smarter and far far safer for all concerned - IF you believe there's somebody in your yard that presents a threat - is to call the cops, grab your shotgun, make sure the doors are locked (at least as tight as the fence gate) and wait for them to arrive. And if in the meantime something else happens like the door gets kicked in, that's where one's Boy Scout preparedness properly kicks in. Not before.

 

[MDG1976]

Strongly disagree. Walking out of the house to confront someone with a .45 and a dog is the unreasoned and idiotic move IMHO. So unreasonable and so idiotic that I still say BS to the whole story. Much smarter and far far safer for all concerned - IF you believe there's somebody in your yard that presents a threat - is to call the cops, grab your shotgun, make sure the doors are locked (at least as tight as the fence gate) and wait for them to arrive. And if in the meantime something else happens like the door gets kicked in, that's where one's Boy Scout preparedness properly kicks in. Not before.

+1

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

I don't think I would've proned out the guy; I'm an MP in the navy and even if we catch someone trespassing (so long as it isn't a high security area) so long as the individual doesn't transmit "bad intentions" we approach it from a normal contact standpoint. Maybe more cautious, watch the hands, body language, but draw a weapon, no. True enough that your home and property may be sacred to you at least, would you want to kill someone for making a bad decision as far as hopping a fence? If you say yes, maybe you ought to rethink carrying... If he were were kickin at your door, shoot... you can probably articulate that you were in fear for your life... but If I see a stranger in my backyard I do 1 of 2 things; challenge them, with a concealed snubbie in my pocket, or if I am truely concerned, call the cops and make sure the door is locked. what if he was an altered individual (diabetic, for instance) who was confused and wandering... or he was looking for his small dog who just wriggled under the fence...

 

[Cosmoline]

Strongly disagree. Walking out of the house to confront someone with a .45 and a dog is the unreasoned and idiotic move IMHO. So unreasonable and so idiotic that I still say BS to the whole story. Much smarter and far far safer for all concerned - IF you believe there's somebody in your yard that presents a threat - is to call the cops, grab your shotgun, make sure the doors are locked (at least as tight as the fence gate) and wait for them to arrive. And if in the meantime something else happens like the door gets kicked in, that's where one's Boy Scout preparedness properly kicks in. Not before.

So you don't think it actually happened? Is it that you can't comprehend someone hopping over a fence or you don't believe anyone actually points a firearm at an intruder?

What part about a fence is causing mental problems with you people? A fenced back yard is little different from a living room. There's nothing public about it. So why should the owner hide and call the police when someone is in the back yard but not when someone is in the living room?

(so long as it isn't a high security area)

A FENCED BACK YARD SHOULD BE A SECURED AREA!! Otherwise, why the devil is the fence there to begin with? Did you build it for fun? Do you people really have strangers wandering around the back yard at all hours? If so, you REALLY need to reconsider your tactical position. The back yard is the launching point of nearly all home invasions and thefts. Secure it and keep it secure.

 

[Cosmoline]

Sounds like a perfect explanation if your someone with only 1 tool in the tool chest.

You try the strong language approach and the dice come up snake eyes, that's it for you.

I'm astonished by the rank ignorance about potential threat levels on display in this thread. Do you people have strangers hopping your fences on a regular basis or something? Insane. Absolutely insane.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've read over it again, and I think this thread may be an example of culture clash.

I'm reminded to watch my trigger finger in the lower 48, and I'd advise those coming up here from the south to avoid hopping fences or wandering on private lots in these parts There are remote parcels in the Mat-Su where they will NEVER find your body.

 

[NineseveN]

Originally yes, but then someone else brought the legal issue into it.




It depends upon the particular law of the county/state. If it specifically speaks to this situation by saying, "deadly force includes drawing down on or brandishing a firearm" then yes. However is the law is silent then drawing is not considered deadly force. Hitting someone with a tire iron is deadly force. Holding one is not. The same applies to firearms.

However, having a firearm pointed at you is justification for self defense, at least most places and in most cases I have come across.

Having a tire iron pointed at you is not. Pointing a weapon is an escalation of threat and possibly force, just as swinging or making an otherwise threatening gesture with a tire iron is. Holding a tire iron is not, holding a firearm may not be either. The action of poiting the firearm is what makes the difference.

If you;re gonna compare apples to oranges, at least

 

[NineseveN]

Candles on a cowpie don't make it a Birthday cake.
Biker

 

[Mad Chemist]

Common sense is one thing and the law is... well unfortunately another. Threatening with a tire iron is of course assault, when you do it in a particular manner in PUBLIC. A person's backyard is not considered in public. Furthermore, assuming mike did this with a semi cool head, it cannot be considered assault. Assault requires an intent to harm. Again, you may think that he overreacted, and maybe that is the case, but there just ain't a legal issue here to quarrel about. If mike is in fact an attorney then there are now 2 of us with law degrees that agree with the legality of his actions.

If you are a lawyer than you must know that state laws concerning AWDW, unlawful use of a firearm, brandishing, unlawful arrest, etc., vary widely from state to state. Anyone concerned about the legality of this scenario should check with a local attorney. Even a lowly non-lawyer such as myself is aware of this.The fact that you would endorse such an action w/out knowledge of jurisdictional complications gives me serious doubts about your credibility and thoroughness. Please do not take this a some sort of attack. If you are representing yourself as an attorney on a public board, then some people may interpret your statements as sound legal advice and/or justification for actions that may very well be illegal in their particular location.

JH

 

[Mad Chemist]

Cosmoline, it's got nothing to do with culture clash. If you think the unkown is a legitimate threat then CONFRONT HIM FROM COVER OR DO NOT CONFRONT AT ALL. And if you confront the person from cover you can have a weapon ready while still hidden from view. The unknown contact has no idea that a weapon is part of the equation and you have cover plus the element of surprise.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that instead of being a pool guy the trespasser was part of a gang that pulls home invasion robberies. You run out the door gung-ho and prone out BG #1 . Meanwhile his two buddies gain entry from the front of the house. If your family is home, you now have a possible hostage situation. If they are not home, you still have two BGs inside your home with access to adequate cover who can easily take a firing position on you while you are still covering BG #1. Home invasion robberies usually involve more than one perp. When it happened to me there were four. Leaving the house makes absolutely no sense tactically. It leaves you in a more vulnerable position.



For heavens sake, think about it!
Rule #1 for a gunfight have a gun.
Rule #2 get your butt behind cover quick.

The monday morning QB BS really steams me since I've been on both ends of the gun. It's very difficult for me to keep this civil. I respect you and aggree with 99% of your posts, this thread constitutes the 1% where we will have to aggree to disaggree.

JH

 

[mathyoo]

If he was the poolguy, did he have his equipment with him? Anyway, it seems to me like a slight overreaction, you would be suprised at how effective a simple "may I help you" can be with gun in hand. Of course Ive been in an abnormal amount of these kinds of situations before so I may be wrong.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

I'm still not seeing the part where his life was in danger.

 

[PCGS65]

Don't be suprised if the guy sues ya.

and he will win too!!
Opening the window and yelling hey what are you doing in my yard?(with gun in hand but not visible just in case)that way you avoid lawsuit. Plus you have the protection of being in your house. Man ID's himself=everything is fine.
Scenairio #2, man says I'm here to rob you and do bodily harm............NOW GO FOR IT!!
Some people that CCW are just itching to use it to justify carrying.
I think all of us gun owners need to think before the situation arises because when something goes wrong that is what the government will use against us to disarm us.