Dumb CC'er makes us all look bad...

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How interesting, I already started a thread on this exact issue. Here it is:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=434669

Notice the reason my thread on the same subject was closed:
Justin said:
We're already inundated with more ho-hum news stories about stuff like this than you can shake a stick at.
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Can someone help me understand why Justin says it's "ho hum" when I start the thread on this subject, but when someone else starts the same thread, using the SAME LINK, it's ok?

Does Justin have something against me? Any light you all can shed on this would be helpful.
 
~~~~~~~~ "Shot through the "head"! And you're to blame; buddy, you give Kahr's ... a bad name!"~~~~~
 
The way I see it, if you have a ND( there are very few AD) You should lose your ccw for life. You have proven that you can not safely handle a gun.
 
But it is kind of funny how KSL ALWAYS has to report on it and is usually the first one to do so
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I didn't realize that our mod was from UT too. I have been living here for 30 years, and I can tell you this is very rare. And you could not be more correct about KSL. For a so-called conservative news network, they sure do report in a very anti manner.
 
It's the second time in just a couple of months that a concealed weapon permit holder's gun has misfired
in a public restaurant.
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Sounds to me like the weapon performed exactly as designed. Just too bad the guy carrying it did something stupid.
 
Not trying to be the Devil's Advocate here, but...

Are we being a bit harsh on this guy? Yes--he had a ND, and it was absolutely due to his own fault--but I'm seeing posts that state that this gentleman needs to lose his CCW for life. Respectfully, I disagree. Here me out before I get flamed:

If an individual causes an accident while driving his automobile, and specifically due to improper actions on his part, should he lose his driver's license for life?

If the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with sporting purposes, and everything to do with protection from tyranny and self-defense, is a negligent discharge--and nobody was hurt here--really good enough reason to deny an individual the capacity for self-defense?

I just don't see it that way--and I realize that I might be on the wrong end of the spectrum here. Show me, while debating politely, the error of my ways.

If a firearm is just a tool--as an automobile is just a tool, or a book of matches, or a chainsaw--shouldn't the punishment for adverse behavior be based on the behavior itself, and not the tool? I don't know if I'm making myself clear here, but it seems as though many on this forum--myself included!--make the argument that firearms are tools, and not "evil" in themselves. It is the operator that determines the actions.
 
I don't think an ND should result in a CC permit loss.

I do think an ND should cause him a serious reappraisal of his focus, his holster, his weapon, and his carry condition. And should he find after said reappraisal that he need not make any changes, he needs to reappraise again.
 
If an individual causes an accident while driving his automobile, and specifically due to improper actions on his part, should he lose his driver's license for life?
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We would be alot safer if they did.

there is also a huge diffrence between a small fender bender and have a ND. A small fender bender during ccw would be like printing.

If the worst a CCW can do is draw thier weapon to commit a crime, having a ND is number 2 on the list.

For driving that would be like DUI... yeah you know its wrong, but you don't care.
 
How about a license SUSPENSION for a public ND/AD?

Not to be reinstated until proof of retraining, payment of a reasonable fine, payment of a new license fee, and passing a range test by the issuing agency?

In MO, training certificates are issued by trainers who are private businesses, and recognized individually by the county sheriffs.

Actions (should) always have consequences.
 
there is also a huge diffrence between a small fender bender and have a ND. A small fender bender during ccw would be like printing.
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not even close. What property damage is done when you print? What are the chances that you will injure someone when you print?

I think it is a bit harsh to deny someone a constitutional right based on an error that hurt no one. Beyond restitution of any monetary damages (replacing the toilet or chair) and perhaps a small fine is excessive, especially for a first offense. Second offense- suspension. Then, for a third offense, a lifetime removal, along with some criminal charges.

After all, a person who says something stupid does not get his right to speech revoked, what other rights are revoked for life because the person committed a misdemeanor that hurt no one? Speech? Religion? Freedom from unreasonable search?
 
I think it is a bit harsh to deny someone a constitutional right based on an error that hurt no one.
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What diffrence does it make if you hurt some one or not? You pulled the trigger.

Also in all 50 states you are required to have car insurance, so the other guy is covered... should we start that for CCW?


FWIW, printing can damage a biz. Ever been shoping some where or going out to eat and found some one there so offensive that you desided to go some where else( if not ask your wife). Also what about every one else there during your ND. At the very least people are going to have minor hearing damage. Are you going to pay for hearing aids for them? Should you have to pay for hear aids for them?
 
The gun is a 9 mm handgun.
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How embarrassing. I'm sure all the other 9 mm handguns are bowing their heads in shame.

FWIW, printing can damage a biz. Ever been shoping some where or going out to eat and found some one there so offensive that you desided to go some where else
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So carrying a gun is offensive? Hmmm. That's news to me. I always thought it was defensive.
 
PvtPyle said:
The more people you have carrying the more likely you are to see this happen.
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That's kind of what I was thinking. It is an embarrassment for the CCW community, but I suppose Utah criminals should be getting a clear message that there are a lot of us out there.
 
Dave/hoff said:
How about a license SUSPENSION for a public ND/AD?

Not to be reinstated until proof of retraining, payment of a reasonable fine, payment of a new license fee, and passing a range test by the issuing agency?
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I think that's a fine idea. It addresses a problem while not trampling an individual's rights. Some form of redress needs to be made--I'm not arguing that point!--but some here go too far. ND is not unforgiveable, though many here would argue that point. In my opinion, intent should also be considered. Retraining, as well as the embarrassing incident itself, should serve to make a much better CCW'er.
 
There are some pretty "holier-than-thou" opinions out there. Kinda disgusting to me to see fellow cc's damning a man for something that almost everyone has admitted to at one point in their life.

If you expect people to be perfect in all that they do, you're going to have a sadly disappointing life.
 
There are some pretty "holier-than-thou" opinions out there. Kinda disgusting to me to see fellow cc's damning a man for something that almost everyone has admitted to at one point in their life.

If you expect people to be perfect in all that they do, you're going to have a sadly disappointing life.
__________________
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Exactly. What's worse is that the flaming being done by these keyboard warriors makes any useful discussion impossible. There are holsters being made that aren't safe--maybe this was one of these, but you'll never know as who would want to talk about an AD/ND with 'experts' like these to tell you what an ignorant schmuck you are. There are guns that really aren't good choices for folks new to CCW to carry deeply concealed due to lack of safeties, but you won't hear about it because those who know get tired of being flamed.

What's really irritating is that it sure seems likely that many of the most vocal opinions are from youngsters in their late teens/early 20's that haven't lived long enough to have an opinion that's worth anything. A good example was a former poster on here that went by the handle of 'sheriff' and was all of 15 years old.

So carry on with the public flogging of this 'dumb CC'er', lest any useful information be discussed.
 
Wait so some one that can go to war and vote "IMO" is not worth anything? its only older people... maybe we should only let older people have CCW, that would fix every thing right?

There is also a diffrence between an AD and a ND. a discharge cused by a bad holsters is a AD. To qoute many other posters " you only need one safety, the one between your ears" I don't agree with that, but in many ways its true. Far to many guns go bang when they are not supose to, becuase some one could not keep thier finger off the trigger. Even more "unloaded" guns go bang, but thats another story.

FWIW, my age starts with a 3.
 
Wait so some one that can go to war and vote "IMO" is not worth anything?
That's a straw man, Tab, and if your age begins with a '3' you should know it. How much experience carrying and using weapons are the 18 to 24 y/old crowd going to have? A few will have grown up around guns and hunting, but in most states you can't obtain a CCW until you are 21, and often can't even OC a handgun unless you are 18.

So if you want to take the advice of somebody that's been carrying for a year or two over that of someone who's been carrying for ten, twenty or thirty years, be my guest.
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how is it a straw man?

your words..

youngsters in their late teens/early 20's that haven't lived long enough to have an opinion that's worth anything.
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You just flat out said people that are in thier late teens earily 20s "IMOs" are worthless. Thier IMOs are so worthless, maybe they should not be able to vote? after all they have no idea what they are talking about. Screw them, they don't even deserve to own guns. After all they know nothing about how to carry a gun and can't give out good advice.

Time carrying means very little... I know Police officers that have been on the job 20 years, carrying every single day and have yet to shoot 1000 rounds in thier life time. What matters is the quality of that time. I'd sooner take the word of a true operator that is under the age of 21, then one of a guy that has been carrying 30 years, but never had a day of training.


Anyway you want to slice it, you have shot yourself in the foot with that comment.
 
Tab, quit trying to drag the right to vote and military service into this. That has nothing to do with the validity of their opinion. I'm talking specifically about the large number of youngsters (and we've had several who've been outed) who just love to come on this board and start threads just like this one with the title of 'Dumb CC'er'. Stick around a while and you'll start to discover who they are.

And it isn't that folks in this age bracket don't know 'anything' , so much as maybe they ought to be a bit more humble and quite a bit less shrill on some of their opinions. The odds are that there is an AD/ND waiting in their future at some point.

Tab, your posts make my point perfectly that there is very little reason for anyone who's had an AD/ND to post around here. If it isn't the keyboard warriors flaming a fellow CC'er (as in this thread), then there are folks like you willing to defend their actions to the hilt. You aren't willing to step back and admit that TRGRHPY and I might have a valid complaint.

I'm done with this. Go ahead, flame away and tell the world just how stupid anyone is who might have an AD/ND for any reason.
 
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