gunsmith
member
they won't answer the phone
can someone in FL get better numbers.
can someone in FL get better numbers.
Florida: Student arrested for cutting food with knife
- Thread starter AZRickD
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GuyWithQuestions
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Not enough details; would you really trust a bunch of 10 year olds running around?
The story doesn't include many details, which is usually the case when something in the media sounds stupid. Whether she kept it hidden in her lunch box until lunch or carried it around some other way would make a big difference in how to interpret the situation.
In this situation, I wouldn't have charged her with anything nor suspended her, just a simple warning would have done because it sounds like she had no bad intentions. Think of the last time when you accidentally forgot to turn on your headlights at night in an area that's extremely well lit and a police officer pulled you over and gave you a warning instead of a ticket. The same should have been done in a situation like this.
At the same time, I can understand why they would get all concerned about a situation like this. Earlier I was an assistant Scout Master for 11 year old Blazer scouts (between when they're cub scouts and real boy scouts). They got into so much mischief; why would I have given them steak knives to run around with on their spare time? At an over night scout camp, one boy poured boiling hot water on another kid and the other kid was crying. Every single rabbit that ran out had them shouting, running, and throwing rocks; although that was kind of a relief since it meant them leaving for a minute gave the scout master and I some peace and quite. I trusted them more when they were supervised, for example we had them target practice with rifles and I felt quite entertained and at ease. I probably wouldn't have minded showing them how to use a chainsaw (if that's even allowed in 11 year old scouting), but definitely not run around with them unsupervised in play. However, if it was a bunch of 10 year olds (one year younger) running around at an elementary school with steak knives, is that really a good idea? I have no problem with them using them to cut food, that's normal behavior. They should provide them for lunch. But really, running around with them in their backpacks, or whatever she was doing that they left the details out?
Sounds like their local area has interesting news stories. For example, they have "Police: Man Beat Boy For Polishing Nails".
The story doesn't include many details, which is usually the case when something in the media sounds stupid. Whether she kept it hidden in her lunch box until lunch or carried it around some other way would make a big difference in how to interpret the situation.
In this situation, I wouldn't have charged her with anything nor suspended her, just a simple warning would have done because it sounds like she had no bad intentions. Think of the last time when you accidentally forgot to turn on your headlights at night in an area that's extremely well lit and a police officer pulled you over and gave you a warning instead of a ticket. The same should have been done in a situation like this.
At the same time, I can understand why they would get all concerned about a situation like this. Earlier I was an assistant Scout Master for 11 year old Blazer scouts (between when they're cub scouts and real boy scouts). They got into so much mischief; why would I have given them steak knives to run around with on their spare time? At an over night scout camp, one boy poured boiling hot water on another kid and the other kid was crying. Every single rabbit that ran out had them shouting, running, and throwing rocks; although that was kind of a relief since it meant them leaving for a minute gave the scout master and I some peace and quite. I trusted them more when they were supervised, for example we had them target practice with rifles and I felt quite entertained and at ease. I probably wouldn't have minded showing them how to use a chainsaw (if that's even allowed in 11 year old scouting), but definitely not run around with them unsupervised in play. However, if it was a bunch of 10 year olds (one year younger) running around at an elementary school with steak knives, is that really a good idea? I have no problem with them using them to cut food, that's normal behavior. They should provide them for lunch. But really, running around with them in their backpacks, or whatever she was doing that they left the details out?
Sounds like their local area has interesting news stories. For example, they have "Police: Man Beat Boy For Polishing Nails".
Brad Johnson
Member
Marion County Schools
Administrative offices
512 SE 3 Street
Ocala, Florida 34471
Voice 352-671-7700
FRS 800-955-8770
TTY 800-955-8771
*NOTE*
No e-mail addresses were given on their contact pages (cowards). Listed e-mail addresses are presumptive based on the naming conventions for other school personnel.
Jim Yancey
Superintendent
[email protected]
Diana Greene
Deputy Superintendent
[email protected]
Wally Wagoner
Deputy Superintendent
[email protected]
Administrative offices
512 SE 3 Street
Ocala, Florida 34471
Voice 352-671-7700
FRS 800-955-8770
TTY 800-955-8771
*NOTE*
No e-mail addresses were given on their contact pages (cowards). Listed e-mail addresses are presumptive based on the naming conventions for other school personnel.
Jim Yancey
Superintendent
[email protected]
Diana Greene
Deputy Superintendent
[email protected]
Wally Wagoner
Deputy Superintendent
[email protected]
GuyWithQuestions:
Nobody has said a 10-year-old should be walking around school with a knife. But, the polar-opposite of making the child a felon under ZT is not proper. The child violated policy and should have been dealt with as such. However, she did not violate the 3 criteria for ZT.
Doc2005
Nobody has said a 10-year-old should be walking around school with a knife. But, the polar-opposite of making the child a felon under ZT is not proper. The child violated policy and should have been dealt with as such. However, she did not violate the 3 criteria for ZT.
Doc2005
GuyWithQuestions
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- Jul 24, 2006
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- 451
Doc2005,
I totally agree that it was inappropiate to make what she did a felony, I'm just thrown off because everyone's saying that she needs a stake knife, and some even compare this situation to gun control, which makes it sound like she had every right to bring a steak knife. I think they should provide them instead. It sounds like the real issue that the school was worried about was the fact that she was carrying one around at school, not the fact that she had a belief that she needs something to cut her food with and that that's irrational.
I don't think that she should have gotten in trouble, not even disciplined for violated school policy, a simple warning would have been better for the situation (unless she had been warned before).
I totally agree that it was inappropiate to make what she did a felony, I'm just thrown off because everyone's saying that she needs a stake knife, and some even compare this situation to gun control, which makes it sound like she had every right to bring a steak knife. I think they should provide them instead. It sounds like the real issue that the school was worried about was the fact that she was carrying one around at school, not the fact that she had a belief that she needs something to cut her food with and that that's irrational.
I don't think that she should have gotten in trouble, not even disciplined for violated school policy, a simple warning would have been better for the situation (unless she had been warned before).
LiquidTension
Member
As I've said so many times before, there is absolutely no justification for any sort of zero tolerance policy.
If there is no zero tolerance policy, the guilty can still be punished and the innocent do not have to be punished. People seem to think that if there's no zero tolerance policy that the guilty will not suffer consequences and that just isn't true.
If there is no zero tolerance policy, the guilty can still be punished and the innocent do not have to be punished. People seem to think that if there's no zero tolerance policy that the guilty will not suffer consequences and that just isn't true.
RustyShackelford
member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2006
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Research-student killed with a KNIFE on a FL campus
Howdy Doc;
Your wait is now over, if you want to research online the exact date and related details of the Orange County FL school murder of one 14yr old killing a classmate with a small pocketknife then check here; www.myfoxorlando.com or www.wesh.com or www.cfnews13.com or www.orlandosentinel.com .
These media sources detail my points that children on school property should not have knifes, throwing stars, edged weapons, swords or any other "weapons". If a school supervisor or LEO thinks an item is wrong or subject to enforcement then let them do the job. We should not judge sworn LEOs or teachers then blame them when a major incident or criminal act goes on in a US school. ***?
Rusty S
:banghead:
Howdy Doc;
Your wait is now over, if you want to research online the exact date and related details of the Orange County FL school murder of one 14yr old killing a classmate with a small pocketknife then check here; www.myfoxorlando.com or www.wesh.com or www.cfnews13.com or www.orlandosentinel.com .
These media sources detail my points that children on school property should not have knifes, throwing stars, edged weapons, swords or any other "weapons". If a school supervisor or LEO thinks an item is wrong or subject to enforcement then let them do the job.
We should not judge sworn LEOs or teachers then blame them when a major incident or criminal act goes on in a US school. ***?Rusty S
:banghead:
Rusty:
Examples of other students' misdeeds are not relevant to the 10-year-old's case.
I am waiting for someone to apply the 10-year-old's case to the 3 criteria of ZT. It has not been done. As I said earlier, no, the student should not have had the knife in school. But, her possessing the knife is not in and of itself a zero tolerance justification either for expelling or for convicting...it is merely 1 of 3 needed, and for fact, the remaining two are not there. Ergo, the school should deal with the matter via the general rules in the handbook.
Doc2005
Examples of other students' misdeeds are not relevant to the 10-year-old's case.
I am waiting for someone to apply the 10-year-old's case to the 3 criteria of ZT. It has not been done. As I said earlier, no, the student should not have had the knife in school. But, her possessing the knife is not in and of itself a zero tolerance justification either for expelling or for convicting...it is merely 1 of 3 needed, and for fact, the remaining two are not there. Ergo, the school should deal with the matter via the general rules in the handbook.
Doc2005
gunsmith
member
I carried a knife in school all the time
It kept me safe and allowed me to keep my lunch and my change.
One time the science teacher found one, he demonstrated his knife throwing skills by sticking it in the ceiling, he also beat up this 18 yr old who was still in the seventh grade, then did the same to his dad when his dad came in to complain.
If kids are getting killed, teach them to protect themselves, because it is already illegal to murder.
It kept me safe and allowed me to keep my lunch and my change.
One time the science teacher found one, he demonstrated his knife throwing skills by sticking it in the ceiling, he also beat up this 18 yr old who was still in the seventh grade, then did the same to his dad when his dad came in to complain.
If kids are getting killed, teach them to protect themselves, because it is already illegal to murder.
For anyone who thinks the child is being justly punished, I direct you to a recent ZT thread. I posted some detail of one student who is alive today because I refused to expel her under ZT! I've been around the education world for many years, 23 to be exact, and I can assure all, my convictions are based solidly in educational law, and in uncommon sense and they run to the core of my bones. When I say no, I by golly mean no expulsion! Check out post #28. Are you willing to risk getting fired to put your convictions to the fire's test?! I did, and as the result a young lady is alive. My reward is to be a full-time, tenure-track, graduate professor. Why? Because of my education, my experience and most of all because of my conviction to not allow students' needless conviction.
A recent ZT Thread:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3824251&posted=1#post3824251
The 10-year-old did not violate ZT. Unfortunately, when it comes to Zero Tolerance, her administrators have Zero Spine. I need to return to grad school. It's time for me to get a law degree!!! Some educator, who possesses uncommon sense, needs to litigate these cases nation-wide and then hold the schools and politicians accountable.
Doc2005
A recent ZT Thread:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3824251&posted=1#post3824251
The 10-year-old did not violate ZT. Unfortunately, when it comes to Zero Tolerance, her administrators have Zero Spine.
I need to return to grad school. It's time for me to get a law degree!!! Some educator, who possesses uncommon sense, needs to litigate these cases nation-wide and then hold the schools and politicians accountable.Doc2005
TargetTerror
Member
I looked at your post in the prior thread referencing this event. Can you provide further details? How did refusal by you to suspend the student directly save here life?
Doc, you also keep mentioning these 3 criteria for ZT. Where are these codified? Are they actually written into law? Are they simply school policies? And why should these 3 criteria apply in the case of this 10 year old girl, even if they applied at the school you used to work at?
The Student:
I can't detail too much because it is a child's record. I have to keep it in a nutshell. This child was, undiagnosed bi-polar. She got into a "fight" and it was no fight. The allegations grew and grew as to what she had done, most of it lies...weapon, no weapon. Hitting, no hitting. Seriously a pack of lies. Anyhow, the child hearing the lies feared being arrested, and suspended or expelled. She went home and very seriously tried to kill herself. Her psych called me at home and worked out a deal with me to withdraw the child from school, and to not pursue any action against the girl.
The parents of the other child pressed and pressed for action. I refused. So, they went to the Supt. The Supt refused and kicked it back to me. So the other parents went to the Board. It remained there for the remainder of the academic year. The Board Pres kept insisting that I take action, and I kept advising them that the psych said if we did, the child WOULD kill herself. I refused action, ergo, yes, the child is alive because I refused to take ZT action.
ZT:
When ZT was passed, it was up to each district to develop and adopt a ZT policy. The criteria were handed down and they constitute the legal framework. I have already detailed the criteria, and for those same criteria, I say, the student in Florida did not violate ZT. She violated school policy, yes. But, she did not violate the criteria for ZT as ZT was intended.
I hope this helps. I do have to temper what I detail, as I said, these are confidential records, and it really is not too hard to find my real name, back-track where I was employed and request Brd of Ed records. With that, the circle is closed and the child's privacy violated.
Here's are some links for you:
http://www.ippsr.msu.edu/Publications/PBZeroTolerance.pdf
http://www.ippsr.msu.edu/ppie/
http://www.thisistrue.com/zt.html
And why did it all matter?!?! Creeping incrementalism. Now, WE have Zero Tolerance:
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6936
Doc2005
I can't detail too much because it is a child's record. I have to keep it in a nutshell. This child was, undiagnosed bi-polar. She got into a "fight" and it was no fight. The allegations grew and grew as to what she had done, most of it lies...weapon, no weapon. Hitting, no hitting. Seriously a pack of lies. Anyhow, the child hearing the lies feared being arrested, and suspended or expelled. She went home and very seriously tried to kill herself. Her psych called me at home and worked out a deal with me to withdraw the child from school, and to not pursue any action against the girl.
The parents of the other child pressed and pressed for action. I refused. So, they went to the Supt. The Supt refused and kicked it back to me. So the other parents went to the Board. It remained there for the remainder of the academic year. The Board Pres kept insisting that I take action, and I kept advising them that the psych said if we did, the child WOULD kill herself. I refused action, ergo, yes, the child is alive because I refused to take ZT action.
ZT:
When ZT was passed, it was up to each district to develop and adopt a ZT policy. The criteria were handed down and they constitute the legal framework. I have already detailed the criteria, and for those same criteria, I say, the student in Florida did not violate ZT. She violated school policy, yes. But, she did not violate the criteria for ZT as ZT was intended.
I hope this helps. I do have to temper what I detail, as I said, these are confidential records, and it really is not too hard to find my real name, back-track where I was employed and request Brd of Ed records. With that, the circle is closed and the child's privacy violated.
Here's are some links for you:
http://www.ippsr.msu.edu/Publications/PBZeroTolerance.pdf
http://www.ippsr.msu.edu/ppie/
http://www.thisistrue.com/zt.html
And why did it all matter?!?! Creeping incrementalism. Now, WE have Zero Tolerance:
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6936
Doc2005
CNYCacher
Member
I am reminded of the quote: "Every normal man must, at times, be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
jpr9954
Member
Has anyone gotten a reply from the Principal or any of the other school administrators?
They may be stupid but not so stupid as to not know how to set up a "kill file" for email they don't want to read.
John
They may be stupid but not so stupid as to not know how to set up a "kill file" for email they don't want to read.
John
TargetTerror
Member
Thanks for the links, Doc. I didn't realize ZT was a part of federal law! Thats REALLY bad.
We're next TargetTerror!!! We ARE next!!! It is already at Michigan's state level for all of us for driving!
Allow me to scar the Hades outta you all. Ya hear the one about the LEO whose wife wanted him to have to retire??? She spiked his food with pot. Years later, it was still detectable to a microscopic level...ZT...they fired this LEO!!! Everyone still like ZT?!
Doc2005
Allow me to scar the Hades outta you all. Ya hear the one about the LEO whose wife wanted him to have to retire??? She spiked his food with pot. Years later, it was still detectable to a microscopic level...ZT...they fired this LEO!!! Everyone still like ZT?!
Doc2005
Last edited:
Doc, i too was a victim of ZT... back in HS, on a monday after a boy scout campout, a fillet knife fell out of my back pack in my anatomy-phys class... i was removed from school... was not arrested, probably because my father worked at the school... i was expelled for 6 months and forced to attend an "alternative" school... the same school that drug dealers and habitual violent kids were sent to... the rest of that year was a fight to stay alive... i spent countless days getting beat up, punched, kicked and generally abused by the other students... the fact that i was the only one there from a middle class background didnt matter to anyone other than the students, and they used that as a reason to beat on me... as far as the school system was concerned i was a criminal just like the rest...
so i can totally agree with your analysis on ZT... its a stupid rule, and its enforced by stupid narrow minded people...
so i can totally agree with your analysis on ZT... its a stupid rule, and its enforced by stupid narrow minded people...
mekender:
Your case also fails the ZT criteria:
1) a true weapon? Yes.
2) knowingly brought to school? No!!!
3) intended for use to kill or harm? No!!!
You did not violate ZT. But, you had spineless administrators! Sorry for that!
Did they give you a due process hearing?! Did they allow you to call witnesses? Did they hold off ALL action until you presented a defense? If not, they violated your equal protection too, substantive and procedural.
Doc2005
Your case also fails the ZT criteria:
1) a true weapon? Yes.
2) knowingly brought to school? No!!!
3) intended for use to kill or harm? No!!!
You did not violate ZT. But, you had spineless administrators! Sorry for that!
Did they give you a due process hearing?! Did they allow you to call witnesses? Did they hold off ALL action until you presented a defense? If not, they violated your equal protection too, substantive and procedural.
Doc2005
Agreed, and yes they do exist. My child attends private school because I was a public school administrator. I saw the crap first-hand and had to fight it.
At private school, my daughter does reports about hunting, shooting, talks about her collection of dozens, and dozens of firearms.
A hint, start seeking a good private school 3 or so years in advance.
Doc2005
At private school, my daughter does reports about hunting, shooting, talks about her collection of dozens, and dozens of firearms.
A hint, start seeking a good private school 3 or so years in advance.
Doc2005
no they didnt do any of the above... this was in 1996, and im suspecting that my father went along with their recommendation because of him not wanting to risk his job... they didnt prosecute criminally, so its not on a permanent record anywhere...
hoppinglark
Member
I graduated from High School in 1999 and back then there were no knives in the lunch room, only sporks.
Looks like we have become a nation of fools.
Looks like we have become a nation of fools.
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