friend of mine got hit by some wannabe gangsters

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I tell him to come over to me if he wants to fight me because I know I can land a couple hits and take him out.

Why did you do that? Don't confront... don't challenge.... especially when armed you don't want to give somebody like that the idea that you are willing to fight at all. Your job is to get out of the situation.

If you were to continue like that, the two of you get into a fight... then he pulls a knife, and you have to shoot, your defense in court is going to be a lot harder.
 
1) Do not approach _group_ of blustering individuals. They'll show off for each other. You'll be the show off-ee...

2) The guy at the car with the glock should have stayed with the car. At first sign of stupidity, he should have called for his friend to come to the car, and for the rest of them to stay away. BTW, the car guy is BEHIND the car.

If things get nasty, the glock is drawn, and shown. 911 is called. Police report is done.
 
nowadays we have a thing called quilt by association which means that if you hang in a group of say criminals, and they commit a crime while you are there, you can legaly be held liable for their crimes, simply because you are an associate with them, at a scene of a crime and thus suspect in personal action

However isnt anyone who has a ccw class told not to START or go look for violent situations? because technicaly thats what you did when you told them to come over to YOU for a fight, that defeats any claim to self defense because you now have 30 unseen gang members up on the witness stand saying how you
"lured a real nice upstanding member of society over to your car were you proceeded to fill him full of lead while he tried to sell girlscout cookies for his sick nieces"
get new friends, drink at home, the end.
 
I find it fascinating that in the scenarios presented here, NO ONE thinks to call the police BEFORE it gets out of hand.

In one scenario, the police are called and everyone shuts up. Very brave and macho.

What are the police there for? Why not give them the information they need to take idiots off the street, even if only for a few hours?
 
Bezoar said: nowadays we have a thing called quilt by association which means that if you hang in a group of say criminals, and they commit a crime while you are there, you can legaly be held liable for their crimes, simply because you are an associate with them, at a scene of a crime and thus suspect in personal action

That isn't an exact representation of the law. If you have any expertise or education on the matter, please present it.


S&T in NOT the place to speculate what we think the law says, or pretend we do.
 
My friend knew I was armed, he also guessed they didnt have any weapons so he knew I couldnt use my weapon. He didnt want me to use my weapon and told me he would rather take a few punches then me firing at them.

I'm gonna stay away from these cheap $4/hr pool halls and start going to Slicks.
Your friend guessed they were not armed. What if he was wrong? What if they pulled a knife or a gun and proceeded to attack your friend. What if they simply began to beat and stomp him into the ground, rendering him unconcious and defenseless. What if they did not stop the assault? Are you prepared to kill in that instance? How would you like to sit in jail while the associates of these hoods harrass your family? Are you prepared to serve 7 years of a 20 year sentence and be forever stigmatized as a murderer? Can you live with yourself if you accidentaly kill an innocent person while trying to stop the attack? Can you live with yourself if you do nothing?

If your friend knew you were armed, and had any respect for you at all, he would not have escalated this situation. Perhaps one cannot expect your friend to understand the responsibility that accompanies carrying a deadly weapon. Apparently, you do not either, but you are beginning to understand by virtue of your experience.

Hoodlums have always fought in gangs, using the advantage of numbers. This will never change. You cannot expect to have a boxing match in a poolhall parking lot. Expecting such is incredibly naive. You will have a lot of posturing and eventually a bloody brawl if one participant does not swallow his pride and walk. You cannot expect the brawl to stop when one participant goes down. Expect it to continue until every person is tired of kicking and stomping the corpse on the pavement.

It's tough to learn the hard way. If you do not know the legal requirements of using lethal force and the interpretation of those laws in your area, you should restrict your firearm to target practice until you do. I'm glad this one worked out OK for you. It could easily have gone sour. Go to packing.org to learn the laws in your state. Then become aware of how they are interpreted locally. Finally, be safe and make smart decisions so you will never be in this position again.
 
I'm not a lawyer but:

IIRC by getting out the car with your gun YOU were in the wrong and 'went to the situation with intent' (Or something like that)
Also you and your friends escelated the situation several times.

If THEY had pointed a gun at you AFTER you were in the car you would of been OK.


This is why i carry 2oz. of FOX spray on my belt...
 
I carry pepper spray on and off. My friend thought they were unarmed, but I told him he would never know. There are a lot of people who carry these days.

Glad it worked out ok, will stay out of this place.
 
Another thing and I hate to pig pile in with everyone else and harp on you and this is called the HR for a reason so dont take this the wrong way and it doesnt really sound like you were looking for trouble buttttt.............



First .............. while though yes I will stand up for myself when disrespected and have fought over some pretty petty stuff when I was younger the goal is not to be some kind of tough guy billy bad ass but to go home safe to you and yours, THAT should be you focus. Having a good time and getting you and yours home safe and sound WHAT EVER that takes.

Said it before and I will say it agin, I have felt more like a "man" from the fights I have walked away from than the quick fist Ive thrown. I cant tell you how many fights I have DRAGGED my friends over the last few years. Sometimes thats what it takes right there. "Screw it guys lets go someplace else these guys dont mean jack ***handfull of shirt tail hand full of collar*** LETS GO I SAID!!!" usally does the trick for me

"I tell him to come over to me if he wants to fight me because I know I can land a couple hits and take him out."

BAD BAD BAD idea. A. your an armed CCL holder. B. you dont KNOW anything. not how far they were willing to take it, if they were armed, if they had 50 more people on hand right up the street, how do you or your friends know that one of the dudes in there little crew wasnt the baddest little mofo since sliced bread??

I assume kinda from the way you put that, either you can fight a little, have some formal training or THINK you can fight. That and a buck 50 will get ya a ride on the A-train. someone with a cool head and some experiance can kick the crap of 90 percent of the people they come across, so what??


What if as you were saying that you got blindsided with a pool stick?? What if you COULDNT have banged the guy out then what??

here is my battle plan when I go out, you can use it too:D

1.Have fun and stay safe.

2. Know and spot trouble before it spots me. For instance I know if im going out with my best buddy david that he tends to be not found of most bouncers and they him. So I keep him away from them and vise versa as best I can. I know which of my friends are complete savages and know how to keep them out of trouble and in line as best I can as well.

3.Avoid places known to be trouble if possible{ lifes to short to worry all the time about stuff like that, sometimes ya just gotta say screw it and HAVE SOME FUN.

4.SQUASH ANY "BEEF" RIGHT AWAY but dont act like a "rabbit". It seems like you did the right thing and I know it cant always work but you would be suprised how easy it can be to chill people out if you do some simple things like introduce your self and the people in your party and find an ally in common. Lots of times you wont be the only one trying to keep the peace.

5. If trouble is unavoidable like the man once said "get to fightin' or get to runnin' ". Dont hesatate dont say a word, start hittin or start walking.

6.HAVE SOME FUN!!!!!
 
At times like these, I am ashamed of my own race. I try to hang out with all the white friends whenever possible.

What the hell did race have to do with it? My feeling is that most people in ANY GROUP (Whites, blacks, Republicans, Democrats, Jews, Christians, etc...) are a**-holes.
Trying to only hang out with white folks because you think you'll be safer is pretty dumb, as this case just demonstrated.
You acted fairly properly in this scenario. Don't sully it by bringing race into it.
If a group of guys attacked me, hell yeah I'd pull a gun on them. a)i don't want to be ont he floor in a fetal position while they kick my head in with steel-toed boots, and b) who is to say they won't reach into my pocket and take the gun? Then not only have I been robbed, and beaten severely (risk of greivous bodily harm is a good enough reason to draw), but I have supplied a weapon to them to use in further criminal activity. No thanks.
 
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Your friend guessed they were not armed. What if he was wrong? What if they pulled a knife or a gun and proceeded to attack your friend.

This was the first thing I thought when I read your post.

Your friend felt emboldened because he knew you were armed...

Why do you think those punks felt they could take on your 6'4" buddy? Perhaps you weren't the only one with a gun that night.
 
Your friend felt emboldened because he knew you were armed...
That's serious. Did he pay you to provide armed backup for his smart mouth? Did you offer to do it for free? If not, doesn't sound like much of a friend.

--Len.
 
Pool hall, you say? Wow, that's what I think of as a really classy social venue all right.

Let's see, how does that old saying go... "Don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things"... is that it? Yeah, I heard that somewhere once or twice. Pretty much something like that. It's a really good thing to think about if you decide to carry a gun along with you, too.

Because solving Problem One (winning the gunfight) doesn't necessarily mean that Problem Two (the courtroom fight) will necessarily go your way. Best bet is avoid Problem One in the first place, not go looking for it.

Buy a pool table, play at home- heck of a lot cheaper than medical bills, funerals and lawyers.

lpl/nc

P. S. - Here's the long version:

Layers of Response by John Farnam
======================
Years ago, Jeff Cooper delineated the "Color Code" and the "Principles of Personal Defense" in an effort to provide us with a logical model for one's thinking on the subject of mental preparedness. I'd like now to go to the next step and apply the same logic to the issue of personal appearance and demeanor, as we all agree that, in the domestic defensive environment, avoiding a fight is preferable to winning one.

Layer One: Nonattendance. The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms. Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.

Crowds of any kind, particularly those with an agenda, such as political rallies, demonstrations, picket lines, etc are good examples of "stupid places." Any crowd with a high collective energy level harbors potential catastrophe. To a lesser degree, bank buildings, hospital emergency rooms, airports, government buildings, and bars (particularly crowded ones) fall into the same category. All should be avoided. When they can't be avoided, we should make it a practice to spend only the minimum time necessary there and then quickly get out.

"A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

Layer Two: Functional invisibility. We all need to practice to art of "being invisible." It is in our best interest to go our way unnoticed, both by potential predators and by the criminal justice system alike.

Whenever I travel, particularly to foreign countries, I endeavor to be the one that no one notices; no one recalls; no one remembers. I silently slip through the radar, leaving no trace, a nameless, faceless tourist. When in any public place, I try to be clean and well groomed, but I never wear bright colors, any kind of jewelry, or anything shiny. I smile a lot, but talk softly and as little as possible. As we say in the law enforcement business, "Courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one."

Loud talking, bright colors, Rolex watches, etc will consistently accumulate unwanted attention. On the other end of the spectrum, tattoos, poor grooming, loud and offensive language, a slovenly appearance, etc will also garner unwelcome notice.

Layer Three: Deselection. Any successful predator has the ability to quickly screen potential victims, focusing in on the ones who look as if they will make good victims and rejecting those who either (1) look too strong for expedient victimization or (2) don't conveniently fall into any particular category.

When invisibility fails, we need endeavor to be consistently deselected for victimization. We do this by making it a habit to appear alert, uninviting, self-confident, and strong. At the same time, we never loiter or appear indecisive. We are always in motion.

"Weakness perceived is weakness exploited!"

Layer Four: Disengagement: Our best interests are not served by any kind of engagement with potential predators. Successful disengagement involves posturing, bearing, verbalizations, and movement. It is in our best interest to disengage at the lowest reasonable force level, but we must simultaneously be prepared to instantly respond to unlawful force with superior force.

Potential predators, as they attempt verbal engagement, should be politely dismissed. Bearing and eye contact should always project strength and confidence. We should continuously be moving off the "line of force." We should be observant in every direction, giving potential predator duos and trios the distinct impression that they will not be able to sneak up on us.

When predators are confused, they are unable to focus sufficiently to carry off their victimization. Therefore, never let a potential predator seize the agenda. Don't answer his questions, and don't stay in any one place very long.

Disengagement, separation, and exit are our immediate goals when we have been selected or are being seriously evaluated by predators. However, if there is to be a fight, the best one is a short one. If a predator menaces me with a gun or a knife, I know that, before it is all over, there is a good chance that I will be shot or cut. However, within that prison of circumstance, I also know that the faster I can end the fight, the less hurt I'm going to get! If there must be a fight, I must explode into action, moving smoothly and quickly, in an effort to confuse and overwhelm my opponent before he has a chance to process all the information I'm throwing at him.

Ultimately, we must "have a plan." Potentially dangerous encounters must be thought about in advance. Decisions must be made. Skills must be practiced. Confusion, hesitation, and vacillation will always attract the attention of predators and simultaneously stimulate predator behavior.
 
Lee Lapin said: Let's see, how does that old saying go... "Don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things"... is that it? Yeah, I heard that somewhere once or twice. Pretty much something like that.

I was thinking the same thing when this story opened with, "I'm at the pool hall we're playing our game and . . . "

I bet we heard that saying from the same source, Lee . . .
 
If i thought the mob was going to follow me into the parking lot to kick my ass, i would have called 911 without leaving the bar. explain the threat to 911 and communicate that you believe your life may be in danger based on the actions and words of the mob. if 911 doesnt want to send a car out then you have to deal with things yourself, otherwise, let the cops handle the situation.

I pay enough in taxes to justify using community services every now and then. plus, calling the police for help and not getting help will look even better in court should you have to smoke someone in lawful self defense.

The best advice is (1) dont go to pool halls/bars (2) be home before 23:30 (3) always retreat
 
Dear OP,

I got bored reading all the posts. It sounds like you do not really want to avoid trouble. Good luck in life.
 
just leave when the place gets nasty, man. if your friends give you sh** about it, then they are being foolish.

if i ever somehow get a CCW here in CA, I would guard it until the last possible moment. I would take insults, let people throw things at me, cuss my mother and my sister too to my face.

I'd take it all.. but when I'd get home, i'd pat my pistol and feel much better, know that IF it went way south I could have defended myself - but because I was wise, I didnt have to do that.
 
In Texas when you get your CHL you go over the law and that law tells you what you can and can't do.

IF YOU CAN LEAVE, LEAVE. Because you HAVE A GUN is the reason why you should leave. Your friend is an idiot. He should have gotten in the car ASAP and not bothered with an apology or the bathroom.
 
Knowing when to leave (a friendship, a job, a movie, a pool hall) may be the single most important skill you can have in life.

What's rule #2 of gunfighting? Bring a gun.

What's rule #1 of gunfighting? Don't be there.
 
Knowing when to leave (a friendship, a job, a movie, a pool hall) may be the single most important skill you can have in life.

Amen. Maybe even more important is knowing where not to be in the first place.

Secondarily, experience will teach you that you will solve a lot more problems with your head than you will with your weapon. I would much rather walk away and let someone think they were the bigger man than let a situation escalate to the point that I had to present deadly force.

I forget where I saw this, but I find appropriate here
If you can walk away, walk away.
If you can't walk away, run away.
If you can't run away, you probably should have walked away earlier.
If you have to defend yourself, do it right the first time.


V
 
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