Good enough groups for newbie self-defense?

[DefiantDad]

Folks,

As many of you know, I am new to firearms. Been shooting basically this year (months, and not every month, mostly just recent weeks actually).

On the handgun, on the human outline target at 10 yards, I try shooting five rounds (all shot within, say, 2 or 3 seconds). I aim for the head area, and then rest for a few seconds, then the next 5 rounds aim for the chest area, etc.

My five rounds are all within the head outline, and the chest outline box. Maybe 1 or 2 of them are lucky enough to be close to the center of the head/chest.

Is this "good enough"? I don't intend to stop practicing of course, for higher accuracy, and for increased range.

I just need to know objectively how good/bad/acceptable this is.

(Shooting 9mm.)

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Sounds good enough to me (for now and where you're at). That seems to me to be the whole reason you'd use the human silhouette. If you can place 5 shots on the head of the silhouette in 2-3 seconds, I'd say you're good. Also, I would suggest focusing on the chest/torso rather than the head. This should be easier, of course, but if you ever need to do this stuff for real, you'll be so freaked out that you'll probably need that whole chest/torso area to make hits.

Have you taken any classes? There are basic CCW-type classes as well as "advanced" handgun classes. Take all you can! Tactics and strategy are just as important, maybe even more important.

 

[jim8115]

I think that if you could shoot like that in a real life or death situation, that is actually pretty good. Though i may suggest, start with the body, then move to the head. In the real world a head is a smaller and usually , moving , target.
Does your target have the scoring rings? Are your body shots all in the 9 ring or better?

JIM

 

[The-Reaver]

My advice, Stop aiming for the head. If anything drop to the pelvis area.

 

[holdencm9]

I'd say you are on the right track.

Another thing you could try is transitioning back and forth between the head and chest, or put a couple smaller targets on either side of the silhouette and alternate left/left/right, etc. And just keep trying to get faster, faster faster, while keeping the groups tighter and tighter.

Also starting from holster, or if your range doesn't allow that (like mine ) then you could just start from the low ready position or as low as you can go to get the "effect" of drawing your weapon.

It's a journey not a destination, yada yada yada.

 

[flatlander937]

Just keep at it and your accuracy will improve with time and practice... I started a thread about this very subject a while back(though I was asking about at further distances... but my accuracy seems like it was similar to yours at 10 yards):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=639971

What I did that helped the most was I bought a 22lr Ruger 22/45 to get more actual practice in... I shoot 300-500 rounds through it whenever I go to the range, going back and forth from it and my 1911 constantly(usually shoot ~100 through the 1911 total). You find how badly you really twitch/jerk when pulling the trigger when you look like a pansy with a .22 for the first few shots you take

I haven't been to the range in over a month(been busy with a very pregnant wife and now wife + baby) but the last couple times I went, I have found my .45 accuracy has improved considerably.

I've also done dry firing every so often when I think to do so.

The best trigger pull advise I got was instead of trying to "stage" the trigger right before it breaks, just pull it concentrating on nothing other than the front sight while trying to apply slightly more and more pressure until the gun goes off and almost "surprises" you.

Another interesting note is that at my last range trip I rented a Ruger LCR which is a small .38spl revolver... I shot more accurately with that thing than my 1911 which has a great single action trigger. I think I found out I shoot double action stuff a bit more easily.


Hope that helps... keep in mind this is from one newbie to another

 

[jmorris]

If your hits are in and around the area that would be the most effective at stopping, there is a good argument that would be better than 1 shot passing through the center of the "perfect" spot the 4 more going through the exact same spot.

 

[Plan2Live]

I'm a volunteer RSO at a local range so I see a lot of different shooters. They don't allow rapid fire so I will have to base my opinions on slower rates of fire than your example. And even with those slower rates of fire, the vast majority of range visitors I see can't consistently pull off 5 consecutive shots inside the head outline at 10 yards.

Many here will tell you that at 10 yards, slow fire, you should be grouping inside 2 or 3 inches. I don't see that kind of performance and we get a lot of shooters, many with military training.

Many here also seem to suggest everyone needs to be capable of six inch groups at 25 yards but I rarely see anyone at our range practicing at 25 yards. Let's face it, 25 yards with a self defense handgun (your scenario) would be a hard sell in front of a jury.

Sounds like you are doing fine. Happy to hear you can practice where rapid fire is allowed. If you haven't used a shot timer on your sets, try it. Very eye opening.

Happy shootin' brotha!

 

[DefiantDad]

Sounds good enough to me (for now and where you're at). That seems to me to be the whole reason you'd use the human silhouette. If you can place 5 shots on the head of the silhouette in 2-3 seconds, I'd say you're good. Also, I would suggest focusing on the chest/torso rather than the head. This should be easier, of course, but if you ever need to do this stuff for real, you'll be so freaked out that you'll probably need that whole chest/torso area to make hits.

Have you taken any classes? There are basic CCW-type classes as well as "advanced" handgun classes. Take all you can! Tactics and strategy are just as important, maybe even more important.

OK thanks; no, no classes yet from a trainer. They change $100 per hour, so I reckon I might as well shoot a few more boxes of 9mm (for the time being). Maybe a month or two down the road I will book an hour class to see if the trainer can give me pointers (I just reckon it is wasted on me as a complete newbie).

 

[DefiantDad]

I think that if you could shoot like that in a real life or death situation, that is actually pretty good. Though i may suggest, start with the body, then move to the head. In the real world a head is a smaller and usually , moving , target.
Does your target have the scoring rings? Are your body shots all in the 9 ring or better?

JIM

OK thanks; looks like most guys are saying go for the chest. OK, I will keep that in mind (still want to have the psychological "imprint" to try head shots when I am reacting subconsciously/fight or flight).

 

[DefiantDad]

I'd say you are on the right track.

Another thing you could try is transitioning back and forth between the head and chest, or put a couple smaller targets on either side of the silhouette and alternate left/left/right, etc. And just keep trying to get faster, faster faster, while keeping the groups tighter and tighter.

Also starting from holster, or if your range doesn't allow that (like mine ) then you could just start from the low ready position or as low as you can go to get the "effect" of drawing your weapon.

It's a journey not a destination, yada yada yada.

I see. OK. My range does allow drawing but I will try with the low ready. I don't even have a holster(s) yet anyway haha. (Working on that).

 

[DefiantDad]

Just keep at it and your accuracy will improve with time and practice... I started a thread about this very subject a while back(though I was asking about at further distances... but my accuracy seems like it was similar to yours at 10 yards):

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=639971

What I did that helped the most was I bought a 22lr Ruger 22/45 to get more actual practice in... I shoot 300-500 rounds through it whenever I go to the range, going back and forth from it and my 1911 constantly(usually shoot ~100 through the 1911 total). You find how badly you really twitch/jerk when pulling the trigger when you look like a pansy with a .22 for the first few shots you take

I haven't been to the range in over a month(been busy with a very pregnant wife and now wife + baby) but the last couple times I went, I have found my .45 accuracy has improved considerably.

I've also done dry firing every so often when I think to do so.

The best trigger pull advise I got was instead of trying to "stage" the trigger right before it breaks, just pull it concentrating on nothing other than the front sight while trying to apply slightly more and more pressure until the gun goes off and almost "surprises" you.

Another interesting note is that at my last range trip I rented a Ruger LCR which is a small .38spl revolver... I shot more accurately with that thing than my 1911 which has a great single action trigger. I think I found out I shoot double action stuff a bit more easily.


Hope that helps... keep in mind this is from one newbie to another

Thanks. I have been practicing with a 22LR Ruger (another thread I talk about how much it jams, due mostly to the gun not being properly maintained by the range). I don't really care what others think of me shooting a 22LR haha. All I care about is training right.

 

[DefiantDad]

I'm a volunteer RSO at a local range so I see a lot of different shooters. They don't allow rapid fire so I will have to base my opinions on slower rates of fire than your example. And even with those slower rates of fire, the vast majority of range visitors I see can't consistently pull off 5 consecutive shots inside the head outline at 10 yards.

Many here will tell you that at 10 yards, slow fire, you should be grouping inside 2 or 3 inches. I don't see that kind of performance and we get a lot of shooters, many with military training.

Many here also seem to suggest everyone needs to be capable of six inch groups at 25 yards but I rarely see anyone at our range practicing at 25 yards. Let's face it, 25 yards with a self defense handgun (your scenario) would be a hard sell in front of a jury.

Sounds like you are doing fine. Happy to hear you can practice where rapid fire is allowed. If you haven't used a shot timer on your sets, try it. Very eye opening.

Happy shootin' brotha!

OK thanks; when I first "started" shooting handguns (just bought them) and shot at the 25 yard range (the other range I can go to) it was just basically wasting money for me and my friends, because we couldn't hit the target or even see if we hit it. So I just decided to forget 25 yards and go to the range that offers closer distances. As you said, I don't actually expect to shoot anyone at 25 yards (and won't be confident doing so anyway even if (s)he/they was shooting at me).

 

[DefiantDad]

If your hits are in and around the area that would be the most effective at stopping, there is a good argument that would be better than 1 shot passing through the center of the "perfect" spot the 4 more going through the exact same spot.

OK thanks; interesting point.

Thanks again everyone for your feedback and encouragement.

Shooting again tomorrow after having rested a few days!

 

[rcmodel]

Don't spend an inordinate amount of practice time on head shots.

It is the hardest part of the body to hit reliably because it never holds still like it does on a paper target.
And the sloping frontial bone in the forehead is the hardest thickest bone in the body.
It has been known to deflect a pistol bullet and just pizz the guy off more.

Practice COM.
Even if you miss by a little bit, you will still do some major damage to something importent.

rc

 

[Red Tornado]

If you want to practice transitions, you might try using the Mozambique. Basically it's two quick shots to the center of mass, and a slower follow up shot to the head.
RT

 

[JagerRanger]

OK thanks; when I first "started" shooting handguns (just bought them) and shot at the 25 yard range (the other range I can go to) it was just basically wasting money for me and my friends, because we couldn't hit the target or even see if we hit it. So I just decided to forget 25 yards and go to the range that offers closer distances. As you said, I don't actually expect to shoot anyone at 25 yards (and won't be confident doing so anyway even if (s)he/they was shooting at me).

So, if you're unable to hit a target at 25 yards; it's a waste of time?

This is exactly how I started ... at 25 yards. I usually shot 200 rounds per day, every day, trying to concentrate aiming and hitting the Olympic target in the middle black. [ http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HWVKSNGEC...E/q2YBW6m4C70/s400/olympistoltarget-Model.jpg ]

To keep things interesting and the concentration span going, I shot one hand only (both strong and weak hand), etc.

I never let the range until I finished 10 rounds to the black. Nine rounds and I started all over with a new target.

Little by little the more demanding range (25 yards) and continuous practice bore fruit. I could easily hit the black at 25 yards with both hands, strong-hand only and weak-hand only. Now that the basics of the shooting were established, it was time to include the draw that I had practiced at home - dry firing, and movement, etc.

It served me well in the practical shooting matches for years.

It had nothing to do with shooting someone at 25 yard range in SD. It was all about making the practice more demanding, where focus had to be in the squeezing the trigger and eyes on the front sight.

I never noticed being able to accomplish the Bill Drill at 25 yards was a waste of time. Modern pistols (not to mention revolvers) are accurate up to 100 yards. I can shoot pretty fast at 10 yards also.

It's usually the proficiency or the lack there of that limits the accomplishment. It's pretty sad when people are unable to hit a target at 25 yards with a pistol / revolver.

One needs to learn the basics first. The rest comes easily after that. IMHO

Good luck to you and stay safe.

 

[Josh45]

Sounds like your doing fine.
Like the others, I would suggest going for the body. there is more area to hit than the head in case of a SD situation

This is what I was able to do with my new Taurus 1911 38 Super.
This was the 4th time I had shot it with 147 Gr hand loads.

Practice will help you get where you want to be. This was at about 12-15 feet.

 

[9mmepiphany]

OK thanks; no, no classes yet from a trainer. They change $100 per hour, so I reckon I might as well shoot a few more boxes of 9mm (for the time being). Maybe a month or two down the road I will book an hour class to see if the trainer can give me pointers (I just reckon it is wasted on me as a complete newbie).

Actually 1:1 instruction is most cost effective for a newbie. I've had a few clients who I worked with before they even bought their first gun...I charge at the same rate

It is better to start with correct techniques from the beginning, be careful as too many rounds can easily ingrain some bad habits, which take a lot of rounds to break.

I'd budget for a couple of hours the first time.

 

[holdencm9]

I see. OK. My range does allow drawing but I will try with the low ready. I don't even have a holster(s) yet anyway haha. (Working on that).

Make sure when you do get to that, you practice A LOT drawing your weapon safely. That means finger straight and off trigger until you are almost on target.

The best trigger pull advise I got was instead of trying to "stage" the trigger right before it breaks, just pull it concentrating on nothing other than the front sight while trying to apply slightly more and more pressure until the gun goes off and almost "surprises" you.

Good advice. Another thing to keep in mind with the trigger pull...follow through. Pull to the rear, applying more and more pressure, then when it breaks, hold it back as the weapon recoils, don't release until you are back on target. Then, consciously allow the trigger to reset and start over. At first it may seem like it slows you down, but over time it will become second nature and actually be faster.

ETA: Eventually you will even be able to start resetting the trigger during the latter part of the recoil (when the sights are coming back down on target), and get that much faster.

 

[DefiantDad]

Alright guys. Thanks.

 

[kayak-man]

I'd say those groups are not that bad. Not sure if its what you were looking for, but this is my philosophy when it comes to "combat" shooting:

I try to use a five inch group as an indicator or when I need to slow down. If I'm shooting at 5yds, and shooting a 2 inch group, then I try and go faster, try and push myself to see how fast I can go and keep it within those five inches from where I want the bullets to go. Soon as I leave five inches, I know I need to slow things down a little bit.

At the same time, I think the ability to fire a well placed, surgical shot on command is invaluable. Again, I'm taking those shots as fast as I can, but its noticeably, painstakingly, slower than when I'm shooting the larger groups. My reasoning behind this is, in a defensive situation, I may not have a full target. There's a possibility that some one is just firing blindly around a corner, or otherwise taking cover, and you don't have the luxury of a large target. On the other hand, if I'm being shot at from the open, and I can shoot at a larger target, I may not need to shoot half inch groups, and would rather solve the problem as quickly as possible.


As far as training goes, just do it! I was in the same boat you are, and after about an hour of 1:1 instruction, my shooting improved considerably. I know it sounds like a lot of money for not much time, and I don't know anything about the training options available for you, but I do not regret a single firearms training course I have taken.

Hope this helps,
Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[coalman]

IMO, if you can maintain a volleyball size pattern evenly spread center mass at 7 yards rapid fire you are doing well starting out. Pulling right or left are more problematic issues to correct than a spread group or pulling high/low.

 

[Tarjb]

I agree with The-Reaver, transition to the Pelvic area of your target and practice to STOP the action of the perpetrator, You shatter that pelvic bone and he will STOP what he is trying to do to you. Also I recommend that you incorporate some kind of off-line movement into your practice, wheather it be left/right or forward/backwards movement. As I see it right now your waisting ammo shooting to the head, try the old double tap thing while moving, it will get you thinking of disconnecting and moving at all times. We are all fearfull of the other guy with a gun, but if you practice to win you will win every time.

 

[mortablunt]

Good enough. The key is consistent, regular practice.