Gun myths: Kevlar "bulletproof" vests won't stop .22 LR

[Zoogster]

Looking at the CCI website all thier hyper velocity rounds are hollowpoints and actualy only rated around 1400FPS. (I had been thinking of the .22 magnum at 1800FPS.)

The only rounds with even a bullet really suitable for the test from CCI are the 22 magnum TMJ and the 17HMR TMJ.

Further they should only potentialy pierce IIa not IIIa. Armor rated to defeat the 9mm FMJ from pistols, and soft lead .357 rounds.
So the level of penetration in IIA by certain small caliber FMJ rounds would surprise many, as such rounds are significantly lower in power than other rounds stopped by the vest.

Of course a HP .22LR is not going to outperform a 5.7 FMJ when not even going as fast. The civilian 5.7 rounds are not even rated to defeat IIIa



Now if you wanted to surprise yourself a little with slightly more penetration and stuck a hardened rod of sharpened metal in the hollowpoint...but don't do that, you cannot manufacture AP rounds.


No the .22LR is not magicly going to jump several levels of ballistic protection.
A IIA vest and high velocity non HP are necessary to even test the myth.


The smaller caliber rounds have less frontal surface area and if hard enough to resist deformation have a higher level of penetration than many would assume for thier energy. Enabling them to defeat barriers which defeat more powerful wider diameter rounds.
They are not magical and able to escape the laws of physics.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well Zoogster, it is what I had on hand. However, recall that PTK claimed .22 lr would go through IIa, II, and IIIa vests with no problem. That didn't happen. The vest ratings are by stopping capabilities, not material of manufacture.

The OP claim was that .22 lr would pass through a Level II vest (not stated, but from the calibers listed that is the claim at least for the lowest rated vest that will stop those).

Since a Level I vest will stop it, Level IIa won't have a problem.
http://www.apparelsearch.com/Definitions/Clothing/bulletproof_vests.htm (NIJ Standard 0101.04)

 

[PTK]

The civilian 5.7 rounds are not even rated to defeat IIIa

SS192LF will, it seems... right off Pinnacle's test chart, they had to make a better vest to stop it.

However, recall that PTK claimed .22 lr would go through IIa, II, and IIIa vests with no problem. That didn't happen.

It DID happen, but the vests were of unknown quality. All I know is that I bought one each IIa, II, and IIIa Safariland vests made in 2004, and that I bought them specifically for testing.

 

[1KPerDay]

I think it's safe to say this myth is busted....

Based on what? I would like to see someone here actually shoot a 22LR copper washed round nose into a kevlar level 1 vest. Or any kevlar vest.

There probably isn't any evidence because people assume that if the larger rounds won't penetrate, the .22 LR obviously won't. But that doesn't make for difinitive evidence in my book.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

1KPerDay, the original claim was for a Level II vest, not level I.

Given the number of bad guys that use .22 lr and the number of cops shot with .22 lr, I can't find documented any where the vest failed to stop the round. Can you?

Maybe you would like to add .22 lr, copper washed, and teflon coated to the mix?

 

[PTK]

Teflon coating does nothing to defeat vests.

Also, the number of bad guys that use .22lr, are using PISTOLS, not rifles.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Actually, if you could get a FMJ .17HMR, I'd bet it would go through a vest quite easily...

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=479224

 

[benEzra]

SS192LF will, it seems... right off Pinnacle's test chart, they had to make a better vest to stop it.

The BATFE says SS192 will not penetrate NIJ IIIA. I would suggest that if Pinnacle's vests were failing against SS192, then they needed to redesign their vests anyway, as the vests were not up to industry standard.

But so far I have seen no credible evidence that SS192 actually penetrates any IIIA using NIJ test protocols, just anecdotes, and people on the Internet shooting vests using landscape timbers and phone books as backing materials. Oh, and the Brady Campaign video of 5.7x28mm penetrating NIJ IIA vest and pretending that's something a .357 won't do.

If I get to specify the backing material, I can probably make .22LR penetrate NIJ II and .357 penetrate IIIA.

It should be noted that SS196 will not penetrate NIJ Level II, and SS192 is no longer imported for non-LEO civilian use.

However, recall that PTK claimed .22 lr would go through IIa, II, and IIIa vests with no problem. That didn't happen.
It DID happen, but the vests were of unknown quality. All I know is that I bought one each IIa, II, and IIIa Safariland vests made in 2004, and that I bought them specifically for testing.

What was the backing material, and how was it prepared? (Forgive me if you already answered that upthread; I may have missed it.)

 

[TexasRifleman]

SS192 is no longer imported for non-LEO civilian use.

SS195 uses the same bullet at the same velocities, but with a lead free primer compound. There are still tons of SS192 for sale. Production of the round has been totally discontinued, LEO or civilian.

 

[PTK]

What was the backing material, and how was it prepared?

Wet phonebooks, but the real issue is that the vests were of unknown quality re: storage conditions.

 

[1KPerDay]

I can't find documented any where the vest failed to stop the round. Can you?

Nope... I can't seem to find any evidence either way. Either it's so obvious that the vests stop 22LR that nobody bothers to mention it, or nobody cares.

what original claim were you referring to, BTW?

 

[NeoSpud]

how about this?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot15.htm

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Also, the number of bad guys that use .22lr, are using PISTOLS, not rifles.

Yes, but some do use rifles and do shoot cops.
http://52.128.225.198/SurvivorClub/GetStory?OfficerID=118

what original claim were you referring to, BTW?

The claim made in the original post...

I was informed by a family member that this is the case. He argued until he was blue in the face. I said there's no way a modern vest won't stop a .22 LR round. He said it 'moves the fibers out of the way' and makes it through the kevlar. 9mm/.357/.40/.45 rounds will be stopped, but not .22 LR.

 

[starboard]

The 22LR has low energy, unimpressive sectional density, and easily deformed bullets. A celebration is called for when the bloody thing penetrates a leather jacket, so perhaps vest manufacturers don't even list 22LR on their charts as the whole notion is ridiculous.

 

[ericyp]

Thankfully, we have idiots to answer this question for us! .22 vs bullet proof vest on youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_4U2x1c7oU

 

[Jefferson Herb]

Small dia,and high velocity makes for a bad day,I've never tried any tests but a national guard member had an old vest and it's interesting what will go thru.

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks neospud... that's a kevlar vest, right?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Actually, we don't know if it is kevlar or not. We don't know if a rifle was used or not (or rather, I didn't find it in the text that a rifle was used). Given that the rests of the tests were done with pistols, I would be surprised if the .22 was fired with a rifle. In fact, they say,

Next test, we will shoot Shotguns and Rifles. Stand by.

Also, I was surprised to see the armor called "Level II armour" and "fragmentation armour" and to see it wasn't designed for bullets. So it certainly isn't what we would call Level II ballistic armor.

 

[NeoSpud]

DNS- It's a VietNam era M1969 anti-fragmentation vest, made from "ballistic nylon" (not Kevlar). Its successor, the PASGT, was kevlar. I don't think either were ever NIJ rated, either, as their intended purpose was as fragmentation protection vests.

The point I intended to make was this: if a surplus condition, likely ~30 year old, non-kevlar (weaker fiber) vest not even intended to stop bullets in the first place can STILL stop a .22, then current-production kevlar body armor would be expected to do it as well. It would be really ironic if it couldn't. I'm not closed minded to the thought, though.

I agree that the .22 was likely from a pistol, as the author has on several tests been pictured using a stainless Ruger Mark II (or III). How much of a difference in energy would the five inches of barrel between the Ruger and 10" setup PTK mentioned make? I don't doubt that there is a significant difference, but I have to question whether it would be enough to defeat actual body armor. For the link from post #3 (TexasRifleman's link to Pinnacle's ballistic chart), you can see that II is rated to take 40 grain .22 from a 22 inch barrel. That leads me to seriously question the assertion that a .22 from a 10" barrel would be so exponentially faster than from a 5" barrel that it could do what a 22" barrel should not and pierce level II armor.

That chart TR posted:
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

More importantly, did PTK use a backstop to mimic the human body that would be behind the vest? I own a PASGT vest and have shot it with my Ruger. Wrapped around a stump, it stopped the bullet. If hanging from a line by the shoulder straps, it punches right through. Admittedly, I was using a pistol when I did that, but I'll do it again with a 10/22 if that'll help this discussion.

 

[1KPerDay]

That would be very cool...

I'd like to see detailed pics and a report of several types of .22LR out of pistols and rifles, if you have the time.

 

[NeoSpud]

1KPerDay - What varieties of .22 ammo would you like to see? I have a few boxes of Remington Thunderbolt on hand (not great stuff, but it goes bang more frequently than not), and I've been meaning to go to the store, so now I have the impetus. I think a shot each of Federal, Remington, and CCI (blazers) from both a Ruger Mark II and 10/22 would be a decent impromptu design, though I don't own a chrony so I can't confirm velocities... it would be an OK test, but definitely not for the peer reviewed journals. I suppose y'all will be enough of a peer review for a modest guy like myself

I'd have to pick up another PASGT vest or two as well, I suppose, but luckily I know a guy who'll probably sell me two (he has 5 or 6, at last count). As long as he doesn't try to rip me off, I wouldn't mind adding a bit to this discussion.

 

[1KPerDay]

I dunno... round nose, copper washed seemed to be the 'one' according to my guy. The higher velocity the better, I guess.

If standard high-velocity rounds don't make it through, CCI stingers or velocitors would be good.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Does it have to be "kevlar" or just body armor? Is the claim being made that "kevlar" is somehow significantly different or likely to fail than other materials?

I ask because a lot of folks use words like "kevlar" and "armor" without really realizing that they are not talking about the exact same things...sort of like calling any sort of soda a "coke" or any adjustable wrench a "crescent wrench."

 

[NeoSpud]

That's a good question, DNS. 1KPerDay did explicitly say "kevlar" in his opening statement. I'll wait for him to clarify.

I just cannot imagine any reason why Kevlar would be susceptible to .22 LR penetration if "ballistic nylon" is not. I'm not a materials engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I do have some grasp of Kevlar's structure.

 

[1KPerDay]

For my purposes it would have to be kevlar. The actual Kevlar sheets were supposedly used in this guy's tests, according to some BS protocol or other, and failed.