Help Me Decide On Which AR 15 To Buy

[rogerjames]

"Better" is relative. Most of us won't have our lives depend on them in the mountains of Afghanistan. all of my current ARs are Frankensteins. However I have top of the line parts in them. Well I guess my 6.8 is a full cmmg production rifle. You can say whatever makes you feel good but I have 2k plus Frankensteins that will out shoot any colt you can come up with. I have two in particular that are sub 1/2 moa guns. Now they were expensive to build. But if your not looking for that kind of accuracy, Than my cmmg is reliable as they get. every bushy I've ever had ran great. People love to hate bushy. Truth is they run. Without selling your first born to get one. Decide what's important, and go for it

Most of us won't own multiple ARs and configurations. If you're going to buy your first AR, and possibly only one... today's market begs for a wise decision.

Congratulations on your sub MOA Frankenstein builds. Ever tried to sell one?

 

[Warp]

16.5 inch barrels just suck. You lose quite a bit of velocity over a rifle, have to deal with a mid-length gas system and lose the hardiness of the 14.5 inch and shorter barrels. The carbines are only worth it if you go NFA and get a 10.3, 11.5 or 14.5 inch barrel. Go with something like a Colt AR 15 A4 with a 20 inch barrel. You get a rifle length gas system and the increase in velocity is definitely worth the extra barrel length.

What do you mean by "deal with" a mid-length gas system? I would choose a mid length gas system for a ~14.5-16" barrel, mutiple advantages...no disadvantages. What do you see as problematic with the middie gas that you have to deal with?

A 20" A4 is significantly less handy than a 16" carbine, and dealing with the NFA red tape for a barrel 1.5" shorter doesn't seem particularly favorable (or popular).

 

[mboylan]

What do you mean by "deal with" a mid-length gas system? I would choose a mid length gas system for a ~14.5-16" barrel, mutiple advantages...no disadvantages. What do you see as problematic with the middie gas that you have to deal with?

A 20" A4 is significantly less handy than a 16" carbine, and dealing with the NFA red tape for a barrel 1.5" shorter doesn't seem particularly favorable (or popular).

You lose 2 inches of barrel length when you go down to a 14.5 and 5 when you go down to 11.5. Yes a middy gas system is the only choice for a 16.5 carbine. The carbine length is not as good. The rifle length gas system with an 18 (only 1.5 inches longer than a standard carbine) or 20 inch barrel is a little more reliable and gives you a softer push.

 

[Warp]

You lose 2 inches of barrel length when you go down to a 14.5 and 5 when you go down to 11.5. Yes a middy gas system is the only choice for a 16.5 carbine. The carbine length is not as good. The rifle length gas system with an 18 (only 1.5 inches longer than a standard carbine) or 20 inch barrel is a little more reliable and gives you a softer push.

Why do you keep talking about 16.5" barrels?

 

[rogerjames]

You lose 2 inches of barrel length when you go down to a 14.5 and 5 when you go down to 11.5. Yes a middy gas system is the only choice for a 16.5 carbine. The carbine length is not as good. The rifle length gas system with an 18 (only 1.5 inches longer than a standard carbine) or 20 inch barrel is a little more reliable and gives you a softer push.

I'm having a hard time finding a coherent thought here. Maybe it's just me.

 

[C-grunt]

"Better" is relative. Most of us won't have our lives depend on them in the mountains of Afghanistan. all of my current ARs are Frankensteins. However I have top of the line parts in them. Well I guess my 6.8 is a full cmmg production rifle. You can say whatever makes you feel good but I have 2k plus Frankensteins that will out shoot any colt you can come up with. I have two in particular that are sub 1/2 moa guns. Now they were expensive to build. But if your not looking for that kind of accuracy, Than my cmmg is reliable as they get. every bushy I've ever had ran great. People love to hate bushy. Truth is they run. Without selling your first born to get one. Decide what's important, and go for it

My department bought 200 Bushmaster rifles to use as duty guns when we couldnt get Colts. I got one of those guns. trust me when I say that if you really run the gun hard the Bushmasters DO NOT just run. They start to break. Not malfunction, they break. trigger components, gas rings (I went through 4 sets in 3 years and there were many like it), popping primers when shooting M193 because the chambers were not 5.56 even though they are marked as such...

We had so many problems that we dumped the rifles and spent a lot of money again to buy Colt 6920s. We have very few problems with the Colts. I havent had any problems whatsoever with my Colt and Im coming up on the same round count as I had on the Bushy. Now that being said my Bushy was more accurate than my Colt but my Colt is plenty accurate for its intended use.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

Colts are ROCK SOLID. I think your nuts to think they dont make the best if not ONE OF. Lots of people would vouche for this..

 

[Rubber_Duck]

If Colt is an option, Colt is the answer.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Colts are ROCK SOLID. I think your nuts to think they dont make the best if not ONE OF. Lots of people would vouche for this..

For the money, yeah Colt is one of the best...there are certainly companies that offer better options though.

Bravo Company Manufacturing and Daniel Defense are a small step up and offer more options.

LMT, Larue, Noveske, Kights Armament and a bevy of others offer much higher priced guns with many more options and parts which are designed to exceed the specs of the Colts.

 

[Averageman]

At the price point, or very near what he is working with the Colt is the answer.
Hands Down best bang for the buck I have seen in a very long time.

 

[Blade First]

"What AR's are better than the Colt (and how are they better) while also costing less? -- Warp

I've been impressed with the offerings from Aero Precision, an aerospace company in Tacoma, WA [www.aeroprecisionusa.com] which produces and sells uppers, lowers and complete rifles. One of their M4E1/EK-15 uppers [be sure and check the specs, including QPQ, midlength, etc.] and a complete lower such as #APAR501111 would make a great starter rifle. Just add your choice of BCG, CH and optic [or Magpul flip-ups] and you'd be good to go with some money left over for ammo.

Or you could revert to post #2 and other contributions for a simple and much less expensive choice that is, in my experience, every bit as good as the bargain-basement Colt if not better.

But again, these are my opinions based on my experience...and I'll leave it at that. Don't need any more emotion-filled insults [don't mean you] because I express my opinions. You'd think I'd kicked somebody's dog.

 

[Warp]

"What AR's are better than the Colt (and how are they better) while also costing less? -- Warp

I've been impressed with the offerings from Aero Precision, an aerospace company in Tacoma, WA [www.aeroprecisionusa.com] which produces and sells uppers, lowers and complete rifles. One of their M4E1/EK-15 uppers [be sure and check the specs, including QPQ, midlength, etc.] and a complete lower such as #APAR501111 would make a great starter rifle. Just add your choice of BCG, CH and optic [or Magpul flip-ups] and you'd be good to go with some money left over for ammo.

Or you could revert to post #2 and other contributions for a simple and much less expensive choice that is, in my experience, every bit as good as the bargain-basement Colt if not better.

But again, these are my opinions based on my experience...and I'll leave it at that. Don't need any more emotion-filled insults [don't mean you] because I express my opinions. You'd think I'd kicked somebody's dog.

Can you explain what makes the M&P a better rifle than the Colt, please?

 

[Blade First]

"Can you explain what makes the M&P a better rifle than the Colt, please?" -- Warp

Yes, I can...but I won't in this thread. If you're really serious and not intent on just being argumentative, PM me. That's a serious offer.

I'll be happy to share the details...which are based on my personal experiences. I do a lot of T&E and my standards for each and every part in an AR, no matter how large or small, are high.

However, nothing I share here is going to have the slightest effect on the true believers, so why make the effort?

Nice talking with you...

 

[Creature]

Yes, I can...but I won't in this thread. If you're really serious and not intent on just being argumentative, PM me. That's a serious offer.

"Can you explain what makes the M&P a better rifle than the Colt, please?"

Darn....I was waiting for Blade First's explanation of how exactly S&W makes a better rifle than Colt.

 

[Warp]

"Can you explain what makes the M&P a better rifle than the Colt, please?" -- Warp

Yes, I can...but I won't in this thread. If you're really serious and not intent on just being argumentative, PM me. That's a serious offer.

I'll be happy to share the details...which are based on my personal experiences. I do a lot of T&E and my standards for each and every part in an AR, no matter how large or small, are high.

However, nothing I share here is going to have the slightest effect on the true believers, so why make the effort?

Nice talking with you...

Why not start a thread and link it here?

 

[Rubber_Duck]

I do a lot of T&E and my standards for each and every part in an AR, no matter how large or small, are high.

You must have X-Ray vision and do your own high-pressure tests. Otherwise, please explain what "your own T&E" consists of, and explain your "standards". Because Colt's standards come from the US Government's TDP and I'm positive that they are more stringent than the standards that the hobby-grade ARs are built to.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I'm in the market for a new AR 15. I just want a basic rifle, no whistles & bells. I want a flip up rear sight but no carry handle because I will add a scope. I'd like to keep the price in the $700-$800 range or less.

I plan on checking out some Carbon 15's. I've heard pro's & con's about them, some really like them, some don't. Some claim their plastic uppers & lowers will break easily or won't stand the test of time. They said pretty much the same thing about Glocks when they came out. They're plastic, they won't last, who wants a plastic gun? Well, we see how that turned out. Comments please.

What you described is exactly what I had budgeted for with respect to my wife's birthday present. I budgeted $1,000 for hardware, which included a working budget for a red dot scope in addition to the rifle.

I bought my wife a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport. Bass Pro had them on sale at the time for $650 (down from their normal $700), but since they didn't know their keister from a hole in the ground with respect to state laws on selling the rifle to me, I ended up buying it from a LGS...at their regular price of $669. After taxes, I believe it came to $715.

This is what you get:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

The sights are fixed front, flip up rear Magul. No carry handle: just a Picatinny rail.

The specs are on the link I gave. It's a sweet rifle, in my opinion. It's had 200 rounds through it so far, and that was just me having fun with it...err..."sighting it in".

No forward assist (you don't need it anyway and it's probably asking for trouble to use it in some cases) and no dust cover (you don't need it either).

 

[Deog]

I guess I would rather have a colt, but for the money, my m and p sport has been excellent bang for the buck.

These threads get way to full of the fan boy BS. Buy what you want and can afford, your decision will be just fine, no matter what way you go.

 

[Averageman]

The last AR build I did was on a Aero Precision lower and I would have to agree with being impressed by the quality.
When these questions come up here I try and refer people to M4 Carbine.net to do some research. There is more detailed information there than you can comfortably read in a week, much of it put together by unbiased SME's.
There is also a pretty cool spread sheet that will take you through some very detailed aspects of individual parts. I highly suggest you read this if you are in the AR Market to either build or buy a complete rifle.
Be warned that the use of the search button is very highly recommended there and it can get a little snarky for new guys who don't follow the rules. That being said the place is a gold mine of information and no small amount of entertainment.
I have three AR's a DD M4V7, a Frankenbuild BCM upper on a Spikes lower with parts picked out for it using the information at M4C, and an AR pistol I built recently using the BCM upper on a Aero Lower again using M4C as a source for parts information.
I certainly don't look down on building your own gun, but at the price point of the Colts now it is almost no savings when you look at buying tools and your potential risk of screwing up something without someone experienced assisting you.
YMMV, but good luck to you.

 

[Armybrat]

Bought a S&W Sport ($579) early last year, then in October bought a Colt LE6920MP-B ($879).

No disappointments with either one - they are very nice little carbines well worth the price.

To each his own.

 

[Inebriated]

This thread would have been vastly shorter if OP listed, or asked about, what features he needs.

An M&P Sport has great specs in its price range. Chrome-lined carrier, M4 feed ramps, proper staking of the gas key and buffer tube, which is milspec diameter, MPI and batch HP tested bolt, F-marked pinned A2 FSB, a Magpul rear sight, and Melonite finish and lining in the barrel. All good things, all things that contribute to it running, and running well. And you can find many many people that haven't had a single malfunction with their Sport in several thousand rounds, and get better accuracy than a 6920.

Where they save money, though partially to economy of scale for small parts and machining costs on the upper and lower, is largely in the barrel, I would imagine. 4140 barrels with Melonite treatment in and out. The process to make a Melonite treated 4140 barrel simply costs less than a CHF, chrome-lined 4150 barrel. Is that a problem now? No. Will it be a problem in 10k rounds? Possible. Although there are some claims of Melonite treatment extending the life of a barrel more than chrome lining, I've not researched it enough. Also, the bolt on the Sport could be cheaper steel than the bolt on the 6920... I don't know, S&W doesn't say, but it's likely to be either 8620 (inferior) or 158 Carpenter (MilSpec). The carrier is an AR15 carrier, not an M16. Big deal? No. The receiver extension is likely 6061, rather than 7075 like the Colt. Again, big deal? Not really. The heart of an AR15 is the barrel and bolt, and with the Colt, you get better components, or rather, you get assurance of better components. And of course I'm glossing over the dust cover/forward assist issue because, well... I honestly could not care less about those two "features". You may.

All that being said, I'm of the opinion that if you're going to use a rifle hard enough that the Colt's features present themselves in several thousand rounds, replacing the barrel and bolt in the Sport would cost you a minimal amount in comparison to the cost of that ammo and those classes that you likely took with it. So would the initial cost of just buying a Colt. Whether or not you decide to get the Colt outright, or get the Sport and see how the AR world treats you, is really the only decision to be made here... I opted for the Sport, because I didn't know what I wanted from an AR, and the overwhelming suggestion was the Sport. I did my own research, and it's a solid value. Now that I know what I do and don't want in AR's after using it, I can either upgrade the Sport, or just buy another rifle... Do I wish I had gotten the Colt to begin with? Eh, not particularly. At the end of the day, the Sport was only $560... That's not a bad price to pay for a spare rifle and learning platform in my opinion.

 

[grter]

What you described is exactly what I had budgeted for with respect to my wife's birthday present. I budgeted $1,000 for hardware, which included a working budget for a red dot scope in addition to the rifle.

I bought my wife a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 Sport. Bass Pro had them on sale at the time for $650 (down from their normal $700), but since they didn't know their keister from a hole in the ground with respect to state laws on selling the rifle to me, I ended up buying it from a LGS...at their regular price of $669. After taxes, I believe it came to $715.

This is what you get:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

The sights are fixed front, flip up rear Magul. No carry handle: just a Picatinny rail.

The specs are on the link I gave. It's a sweet rifle, in my opinion. It's had 200 rounds through it so far, and that was just me having fun with it...err..."sighting it in".

No forward assist (you don't need it anyway and it's probably asking for trouble to use it in some cases) and no dust cover (you don't need it either).

Sounds like typical retail garbage when compared to a properly built AR (note speaking in relative terms.)

It may not be a bad rifle but don't compare it to something that it is not.

What a person needs is going to depend on what he/she uses it for. Right ?

Not having a dust cover or forward assist is asking for trouble with an AR platform, not just in some instances, but in a Whole Lot Of Intstances.

Someone may also just want a properly built AR because they want it. Right ?

Someone may also want one like yours to save some money and get a decent rifle that suites their needs. Right ?

 

[Warp]

I suspect the forward assist is often overrated.

Don't get me wrong, mine have one and I want it there, but I don't think I've ever needed it.

 

[C-grunt]

I use the forward assist a lot. Every time I deploy my rifle I give it a press check to make sure a round is in the chamber. I then use the forward assist to ensure the bolt is fully in battery.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Sounds like typical retail garbage when compared to a properly built AR (note speaking in relative terms.)

It may not be a bad rifle but don't compare it to something that it is not.

What a person needs is going to depend on what he/she uses it for. Right ?

Not having a dust cover or forward assist is asking for trouble with an AR platform, not just in some instances, but in a Whole Lot Of Intstances.

Someone may also just want a properly built AR because they want it. Right ?

Someone may also want one like yours to save some money and get a decent rifle that suites their needs. Right ?

OK, where do you get that I'm "comparing it to something that it is not"? And what's not "properly built" about my recommendation?


The OP asked a simple question with a few basic desires and a budget. I answered that. And I answered it with my own opinion on a couple features some AR platforms have based on the OP's stated desire of "I just want a basic rifle, no whistles & bells".

The dust cover and forward assist are NOT necessary features at all, most especially for someone looking for a basic, no-frills AR-15 platform. People have gotten along without these kinds of features in semi-automatic rifles for decades before they came up with them on the AR-15, the AR-15 functioned perfectly adequately without them before they came along, and they function perfectly adequately now.

Maybe if what he's looking for is an all-conditions, combat platform, that would be different. But he's not.


If the rifle doesn't chamber...then there's something wrong and the problem should be addressed and fixed rather than automatically hitting the forward assist. That includes operator error such as riding the bolt forward, damaged/improper rounds and such. The novice needs to understand this and learn what is causing malfunctions and deal with them, just like any other platform.

Remember, the OP is new to the market and specifically said "no bells and whistles" and gave a budget. He's obviously not combat oriented, nor looking to get the "top-of-the-line-whizbang" AR-15.

And the true beauty of the AR-15 platform is how fantastically modular it is. He can use the knowledge and experience he gains from this purchase to make further modifications as he sees fit, or perhaps just build his own later.