Help Me Decide On Which AR 15 To Buy

[Inebriated]

I use the forward assist a lot. Every time I deploy my rifle I give it a press check to make sure a round is in the chamber. I then use the forward assist to ensure the bolt is fully in battery.

Scallop on the carrier does the same thing.

 

[Warp]

Scallop on the carrier does the same thing.

Yes it does. For administratively loading/doing a chamber check, the carrier works just fine. And since you just pulled the bolt/carrier back enough to see the case the ejection port will be open no matter what.

 

[Blade First]

Colt's @ SHOT Show this week:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/17..._COLT_LE6920_OEM1_and_LE6920_OEM2.html&page=1

You, too, can "build" an M4 carbine. And the MSRP is only $793 as compared to the MSRP of the least expensive 6920 variant at $1,229 [increased just this week, btw]. Do the math. Competition is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Colt's last November:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2014/12/8/colt-avoids-loan-default/

Of particular interest to those with a financial background, there is this excerpt:

"Delays in military contracts also reportedly contributed to Colt's financial shortcomings."

Given the confluence of these two, perhaps we'll see 'loss-leaders' in other Colt product lines...in fact, that's probably likely.

 

[Inebriated]

If that Colt with the A2 hits a street price of $650, I'll buy immediately.

 

[Blade First]

"If that Colt with the A2 hits a street price of $650, I'll buy immediately." --Inebriated

Two questions:

1. How available will that base package be if you decide to buy it from your LGS?

2. If it is readily available at that price [or less?] in the marketplace, what will that do to demand for the base 6920?

Cannibalization of similar products in a company/umbrella corp. isn't often successful...and usually really aggravates those customers who bought a product at a much higher equivalent price.

OTOH, if I were an FFL dealer with experience and spare parts to finish these carbines, I'd be rubbing my hands in glee and firing up the checkbook to buy as many units as Colt would sell me.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Oh, look!!! Arguments on personal tastes about an AR15 that in no way help the OP!!! Surprise, surprise....

Here is my broad list of gun brands that generally make solid AR15s for a budget (I'm sure I missed some, but these will get you started):
-Colt
-Ruger
-S&W
-Core15
-PSA
-CMMG
-Spikes
-Stag

Here are brands that are popular but can have some controversy:
-Bushmaster
-DPMS
-DelTon
-Windham Weaponry
-Mossberg
-Diamondback
-Armalite

I know that is just quick list off the top of my head, but if it were me, I'd get a brand that has good Customer Service as well as a good price. I'd look at S&W and Ruger, also Core15. If you get a good deal on a Colt, that's awesome too. Any brand can be good or bad, it just depends on needs and price.

 

[Inebriated]

Two questions:

1. How available will that base package be if you decide to buy it from your LGS?

2. If it is readily available at that price [or less?] in the marketplace, what will that do to demand for the base 6920?

Cannibalization of similar products in a company/umbrella corp. isn't often successful...and usually really aggravates those customers who bought a product at a much higher equivalent price.

OTOH, if I were an FFL dealer with experience and spare parts to finish these carbines, I'd be rubbing my hands in glee and firing up the checkbook to buy as many units as Colt would sell me.

1, how should I know? I have four real deal, new gun stores within 20 minutes of me... not just big box stores or fudd clubs. One of them will have it, considering the rest of the Colt stock they carry. If they don't, I'll order one online.

2, again, how am I supposed to know? I'm interested in it because I don't want plastic M4 handguards or an MOE stock to begin with... I have AR parts already that I am happy to slap on a rifle, and I'm happy to pay less for a rifle ready for that.

I have no idea how it will affect Colt's sales, and I don't actually care. If I can get their rifle for a price I want, it doesn't matter to me if they incur a loss or damage their business over time. Colt isn't known for making strong business choices lately anyway. But I would be surprised if Colt actually takes a significant hit in 6920 sales. Let's be honest, really only the hardcore AR guys are going to actually have rear sights, trigger guards, and furniture laying around. Most people are just going to buy the complete.

 

[C-grunt]

Yes it does. For administratively loading/doing a chamber check, the carrier works just fine. And since you just pulled the bolt/carrier back enough to see the case the ejection port will be open no matter what.

Yeah but when you're on scene of an armed robbery or a shooter at large just tapping the forward assist is easier.

 

[Inebriated]

When you're on scene of anything, you're probably using a rifle issued to you.... I don't think OP is going to be on any scenes...

And either way, tapping the forward assist and pressing on the scallop literally takes the exact same amount of time. At that point, it's just preference. If you're used to a forward assist, keep the forward assist. If you're not, then it really isn't a big deal.

 

[C-grunt]

Very true. My original point was there are reasons to use the forward assist.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Deleted.

Already addressed.

 

[JRWhit]

Well in true fashion a simple question resulted in a fire storm debate oddly involving a rifle outside of the listed price range.

You sound like your in the same boat I was. A myriad of choices for someone just getting started on ARs.
I feel I did pretty well with the Ruger AR 556. Paid 645 out the door and knew if nothing else there was a solid backing from the maker of said rifle.
This gave me a chance to toy around with accessories and figure out what exactly I wanted from this platform without dropping a ton of cash on a higher end AR.
The ruger came with flip up rear sight. The gas block is I bit unique and allows an attachment point on the bottom side. It comes with one p-mag.

I personally had an issue with the trigger. It was decent for a mils spec when it broke But was gritty in the take up. Found out later that the sear surface had a defect and I could have had ruger replace it, but I had planned on putting in an ALG trigger any way and never did bother with it.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Warp]

"If that Colt with the A2 hits a street price of $650, I'll buy immediately." --Inebriated

Two questions:

1. How available will that base package be if you decide to buy it from your LGS?

2. If it is readily available at that price [or less?] in the marketplace, what will that do to demand for the base 6920?

Cannibalization of similar products in a company/umbrella corp. isn't often successful...and usually really aggravates those customers who bought a product at a much higher equivalent price.

OTOH, if I were an FFL dealer with experience and spare parts to finish these carbines, I'd be rubbing my hands in glee and firing up the checkbook to buy as many units as Colt would sell me.

Nobody who bought an AR moderately recently will be "happy" about what they paid vs what you can get out the door with right now.

Which is a very good thing.

 

[Blade First]

"Which is a very good thing." -- Warp

It is if you're willing to pay for a Colt missing critical parts at the same price for which you can purchase a complete, functioning carbine...one which you're able, btw, to load and shoot minutes after you walk out of the store. If I were the OP, that'd be an easy choice for an entry-level, casual-use AR.

"If I can get their rifle for a price I want, it doesn't matter to me if they incur a loss or damage their business over time." -- Inebriated

Certainly doesn't matter if you help ensure that it might be the last new Colt carbine you'll ever have a chance to purchase. Actions have consequences.

In the unlikely event that I would have a problem with a new Colt that needed to go back to the factory for repair, I'd want a strong, viable company willing and able to make good on its warranty. Wouldn't you? Apparently not.

"Colt isn't known for making strong business choices lately anyway." -- Ibid.

Is there an echo in here?

 

[Inebriated]

Certainly doesn't matter if you help ensure that it might be the last new Colt carbine you'll ever have a chance to purchase. Actions have consequences.

Excuse me? You think that me buying a rifle they're selling makes it my fault if they have problems? How the hell does that make sense to you?

In the unlikely event that I would have a problem with a new Colt that needed to go back to the factory for repair, I'd want a strong, viable company willing and able to make good on its warranty. Wouldn't you? Apparently not.

Oh come on, it's an AR15... If there's a problem I'll fix it myself, regardless of if the company is alive and well or not.

 

[Warp]

It is if you're willing to pay for a Colt

You totally and completely missed what I was saying is a very good thing, which is weird because it seemed straightforward to me:

"Nobody who bought an AR moderately recently will be "happy" about what they paid vs what you can get out the door with right now.

Which is a very good thing."

Notice that nowhere in my entire post did I say anything about Colt specifically. Yes, that is the topic, but I distinctly said "an AR", not "a Colt"

Or is your contention that low AR prices are not a good thing??

missing critical parts

Maybe you only buy complete rifles that already have the exact stock and handguard/rail that you want, but many people choose their own to add after they acquire the rifle, thus making it wasteful to pay for them with the rifle.

Even a new AR shooter will often select a handguard or rail to install.

And if they don't want to, they can buy a complete rifle! Nobody is saying or implying that the no-stock/no-handguard Colt is the ONLY rifle anybody should buy. I mean...really...come on...you are arguing against yourself here.

at the same price for which you can purchase a complete, functioning carbine

There are a lot of choices for ARs. There are a lot of choices at different prices.

If your one and only concern is getting the cheapest possible complete carbine, obviously something like a Colt is not for you.

Certainly doesn't matter if you help ensure that it might be the last new Colt carbine you'll ever have a chance to purchase. Actions have consequences.

So now we are somehow bad people if we buy the product that the company puts on the market? What? lol

In the unlikely event that I would have a problem with a new Colt that needed to go back to the factory for repair, I'd want a strong, viable company willing and able to make good on its warranty. Wouldn't you? Apparently not.

Do you have the specific date that Colt will cease to exist and no longer warranty anything?

But an AR is so easy to work on that needing to send a good one back for work due to a material defect is very unlikely, and if it is needed, it would probably be soon after purchase.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I wish there were an AR15 thread that had useful choices and didn't turn into pointless riff raff about Colts.

 

[Warp]

I wish there were an AR15 thread that had useful choices and didn't turn into pointless riff raff about Colts.

That would be like having a "what semi auto defensive rifle should I buy" thread and not wanting people to talk about AR's

 

[MistWolf]

I wish there were an AR15 thread that had useful choices and didn't turn into pointless riff raff about Colts.

The subject is more complicated than that. For a shooter that knows little about the AR, suggesting a Colt 6920 is the Easy Button because of it's base reliability, cost and configuration. Buy a 6920 and ammo and stop buy the local rang on your way home and you're shooting an AR. Certain other makers aren't quite as reliable for the same amount of money and for a shooter with no experience with the AR, troubleshooting a problem can be overwhelming.

For a shooter that is knowledgeable about ARs, modifying and trouble shooting, the field is wide open because they have a good idea what to avoid, what is suitable to their shooting style, what compromises they are willing to accept and what they are willing to do make something work.

What makes the situation worse is that picking the right rifle for another is a chancy business at best. Unfortunately, a shooter does not and cannot know what rifle is best for them until they actually get out and shoot.

In all honesty, the best suggestion anyone can make is to pick a Colt 6920 and go shoot it. 99% of the time, it won't be the perfect AR but it is the perfect AR to start with because it's the AR at the most basic, is known to be reliable and can be modified as the shooter grows in knowledge and experience.

In my opinion, the second best suggestion is to pick a basic BCM with a 16" lightweight profile barrel with the mid-length gas system, A5 RE assembly and basic Magpul MOE furniture. This rifle is reliable, a good value and with the addition of sights and magazines, the shooter can take it with a box of ammo right to the range and know it's gonna work. It's a better place to start than a 6920 because of the better barrel profile and gas system. But it's a second place suggestion because it's a more complicated answer that is subject to opinion as to why it's a better choice. The problem only gets worse as more and more options and opinions are injected into the conversation.

If you really want to know what the short list of acceptable ARs are, do your research and become your own subject matter expert. You will be able to make better choices when buying an AR rifle or parts and you will really begin to understand why "Which AR Should I Buy" is both an easy and complicated question to answer

 

[Warp]

The subject is more complicated than that. For a shooter that knows little about the AR, suggesting a Colt 6920 is the Easy Button because of it's base reliability, cost and configuration. Buy a 6920 and ammo and stop buy the local rang on your way home and you're shooting an AR. Certain other makers aren't quite as reliable for the same amount of money and for a shooter with no experience with the AR, troubleshooting a problem can be overwhelming.

For a shooter that is knowledgeable about ARs, modifying and trouble shooting, the field is wide open because they have a good idea what to avoid, what is suitable to their shooting style, what compromises they are willing to accept and what they are willing to do make something work.

What makes the situation worse is that picking the right rifle for another is a chancy business at best. Unfortunately, a shooter does not and cannot know what rifle is best for them until they actually get out and shoot.

In all honesty, the best suggestion anyone can make is to pick a Colt 6920 and go shoot it. 99% of the time, it won't be the perfect AR but it is the perfect AR to start with because it's the AR at the most basic, is known to be reliable and can be modified as the shooter grows in knowledge and experience.

In my opinion, the second best suggestion is to pick a basic BCM with a 16" lightweight profile barrel with the mid-length gas system, A5 RE assembly and basic Magpul MOE furniture. This rifle is reliable, a good value and with the addition of sights and magazines, the shooter can take it with a box of ammo right to the range and know it's gonna work. It's a better place to start than a 6920 because of the better barrel profile and gas system. But it's a second place suggestion because it's a more complicated answer that is subject to opinion as to why it's a better choice. The problem only gets worse as more and more options and opinions are injected into the conversation.

If you really want to know what the short list of acceptable ARs are, do your research and become your own subject matter expert. You will be able to make better choices when buying an AR rifle or parts and you will really begin to understand why "Which AR Should I Buy" is both an easy and complicated question to answer

Precisely. Not to mention the resale value of a Colt vs a anything else that sells complete for <$900, and regardless of intentions, sometimes people choose to or have to sell guns, especially if it's their first of a type...maybe they just decide it isn't for them. Good to take resale into consideration (so something like a Colt AR or a Glock or a Ruger revolver is never a bad bet).

I agree that assembling a rifle around a mid length BCM complete upper really is a better way to go than a factory Colt (arguably anyway), but is definitely a more complex answer that results in having to get the correct list of parts together from multiple sources (even if the 'list' of parts is only 2-4 pieces long) and comes 'some assembly required' (very easy assembly, but not everybody will be up for that unless you match a complete lower with a complete upper).

Honorable mention to an AIM Surplus deal for a Spikes mid length upper.

Mid lengths are just great.

 

[Blade First]

"Excuse me? You think that me buying a rifle they're selling makes it my fault if they have problems? How the hell does that make sense to you?" -- Inebriated

Your logic, such that it is, is looking backward.

1. If you take a decision to buy a product that is, for example, a "loss leader", which by definition is a sale that is at best at cost or perhaps under cost, then you "win" for today's purchase.

The company, however, either breaks even on production/sales cost to you or actually loses money on your transaction.

2. If only you take that decision, the threat to the financial stability of the company isn't necessarily troublesome.

However, if thousands of customers like you decide to take advantage of that "sweet deal" without adding add'l purchases [by definition, the reason that a "loss leader" is offered; so that you will buy add'l items that will earn the company a decent margin], the company will at best break even on sales...or worse, lose money on thousands of sales.

Based on your comments, you don't really give a rat's patoot if Colt's goes out of business. Congratulations...you got yours. /sarc

"Notice that nowhere in my entire post did I say anything about Colt specifically. Yes, that is the topic, but I distinctly said "an AR", not "a Colt".

Actually, the topic is 'what AR-15 should I buy?', not how you can defend your contention that buying Colt in any and all configurations is "logical".

"Or is your contention that low AR prices are not a good thing??" -- Warp

You are exactly 180° out of phase [is there an echo in here?]. My opinion is that there are basic ARs that are at least as good as Colt's [and other mfrs' offerings] if not better...some at a better price.

"Maybe you only buy complete rifles that already have the exact stock and handguard/rail that you want, but many people choose their own to add after they acquire the rifle, thus making it wasteful to pay for them with the rifle."

Maybe you were in kindergarten when I started building ARs to my specifications. The magic of building an AR exactly as you want it to be is almost as much fun as shooting it when you finish the build. I don't buy new complete ARs...don't need to buy anything at an inflated price given my extensive experience.

"Even a new AR shooter will often select a handguard or rail to install."

Or a buttstock, trigger guard, better trigger, red-dot sight, back-up/ flip-up/ rail-mounted mil-profile front & rear sight, etc.

"And if they don't want to, they can buy a complete rifle! Nobody is saying or implying that the no-stock/no-handguard Colt is the ONLY rifle anybody should buy. I mean...really...come on...you are arguing against yourself here."

Actually, my argument is as consistent as my logic. As evidenced by their announcement at SHOT Show this week, Colt promises that they will be offering a basic 6920 carbine stripped of crucial parts at an MSRP that, at street price, will still be at a significant disadvantage with complete basic carbines from other mfrs.

 

[C-grunt]

What rifles, and by what measure are they better than Colt, are cheaper?

The only thing I can think of currently that MIGHT be as good for cheaper is the Spikes Middy from AIM. I say might because Spikes' component quality, ie bolt testing, was suspect in the past. I wont deal with Spikes for personal feelings about their business practices so I dont know if those questions was ever actually answered or not.

 

[Warp]

What rifles, and by what measure are they better than Colt, are cheaper?

That question is conveniently ignored.

1. If you take a decision to buy a product that is, for example, a "loss leader", which by definition is a sale that is at best at cost or perhaps under cost, then you "win" for today's purchase.

By how much is it a loss leader, exactly? Links to documents/numbers/Colt making this known please.

However, if thousands of customers like you decide to take advantage of that "sweet deal" without adding add'l purchases

This isn't like a grocery store and milk/eggs/ground beef/chicken breast as a loss leader to get you into the store where you then buy more stuff. People don't generally log in to grab a gun or go to their LGS, buy a new AR type rifle, and then buy more/additional items from the same company. They buy ammo, mags, optics, lights, slings, etc, which are almost always made by other companies.

Based on your comments, you don't really give a rat's patoot if Colt's goes out of business. Congratulations...you got yours. /sarc

Again..buying a product that a company puts on the market, for the price they put it on the market for, is not something you can throw insults at the buyer for. Seriously.

I don't buy new complete ARs

Then what you do probably isn't very relevant to a person asking what new, complete AR to buy.

 

[Inebriated]

"Excuse me? You think that me buying a rifle they're selling makes it my fault if they have problems? How the hell does that make sense to you?" -- Inebriated



Your logic, such that it is, is looking backward.

Colt puts rifle on market for a particular price.
I purchase it.
Any repercussions from Colt's price point are Colt's alone.
Your logic is what seems to be... Unique... In this thread.

"Notice that nowhere in my entire post did I say anything about Colt specifically. Yes, that is the topic, but I distinctly said "an AR", not "a Colt".



Actually, the topic is 'what AR-15 should I buy?', not how you can defend your contention that buying Colt in any and all configurations is "logical".

Notice where I don't care what company trips on their own tie. If you market something that you can't afford to market, you will and deserve to go under.

Also notice where my initial suggestions in this thread had nothing to do with Colt, and in fact listed the most specific differences that make Colt potentially more expensive for some users than they need.

I'm done with you in this thread, it's clear that you're just swinging with your eyes closed because of you'd been paying attention, you'd have noticed that I'm one of the few that didn't immediately jump on Colt's balls, and actually made an attempt at answering OP's question with some information about what separates rifles (something you've repeatedly failed to do when asked by Warp what makes those cheaper rifles better).

Have a good day.

 

[Warp]

OP has only posted twice in this thread, with the most recent being 6 days ago, at which time he said

Right now I'm looking at the RUGER AR 556 and the SMITH & WESSON M&P.

We still don't know which M&P he is looking at. Sport or M&P 15, or what he would pay for it, or what makes him lean towards those two.