Jlr2267
Member
*You* apparently cannot...others, including myself, have.
Help Me Decide On Which AR 15 To Buy
- Thread starter rugerman07
- Start date
- Status
I think links to this would be particularly helpful.
Jlr2267
Member
Google
Jlr2267
Member
Nice try though, trying to get others to find your deals for you. I give you a "B+" for creativity
Getting back to the OP, if you are fine with spending $800, then you can get a Colt for that amount. PSA offers Colt AR's now and then for $799. Just check out their website on a daily basis and wait for the sale. If fact, the Colt CRX-16 is on sale now for $799.
Of course, plain jane shooters can be had for about $500 on the same website.
Of course, plain jane shooters can be had for about $500 on the same website.
Inebriated
Member
rugerman07
Member
What's the difference in the "Sport" and the "Sport 15"?
There is no such thing as a Sport and then a different Sport 15.
There is the M&P Sport and then the M&P 15.
The Sport is cheaper, it uses some cheaper materials, a different twist rate/material barrel, omits the forward assist and dust cover, and some other details I am not sure of off the top of my head.
Inebriated
Member
It is actually the "M&P15 Sport".
But regardless, the only "cheaper material" is the handguard, which lacks the shielding.
The only difference between the Sport and the regular M&P15 is the Sport has no dust cover or forward assist, it has a Magpul flip up rear instead of a carry handle, and the M&P15 has a chrome-lined barrel with an M4 profile... still 4140, though, so chrome lining or melonite lining, doesn't really matter to me... it's still just a 4140 barrel.
But regardless, the only "cheaper material" is the handguard, which lacks the shielding.
The only difference between the Sport and the regular M&P15 is the Sport has no dust cover or forward assist, it has a Magpul flip up rear instead of a carry handle, and the M&P15 has a chrome-lined barrel with an M4 profile... still 4140, though, so chrome lining or melonite lining, doesn't really matter to me... it's still just a 4140 barrel.
Chrome lining matters it's better quality just plain and simple. It is not "the same."
Dust covers and foward assists are part of a better quality AR platform it matters. It is not the same.
If you want to save money by getting a rifle with a bare barrel (no chrome lining,) no dust cover, and no forward assist my advice would be to make sure the costs are significantly lower because if not, you are much better off spending a few extra bucks to get a foward assist, dust cover, and chrome lined barrel (full mil spec is preferable it really is.)
And get a barrel with a twist rate that is right for the type of ammo you intend to be using. If that happens to be the longer heavier type of bullet then you will need the modern faster twist rate.
Here is where I may be in the minority. A 20 inch barrel will give you better range, accuracy, power, and balistics (those points are well known by the way) and is what a 5.56 round is designed to work out of. The shorter barrels are a compromise and a big one at that. I would strongly urge a 20 inch barrel.
Dust covers and foward assists are part of a better quality AR platform it matters. It is not the same.
If you want to save money by getting a rifle with a bare barrel (no chrome lining,) no dust cover, and no forward assist my advice would be to make sure the costs are significantly lower because if not, you are much better off spending a few extra bucks to get a foward assist, dust cover, and chrome lined barrel (full mil spec is preferable it really is.)
And get a barrel with a twist rate that is right for the type of ammo you intend to be using. If that happens to be the longer heavier type of bullet then you will need the modern faster twist rate.
Here is where I may be in the minority. A 20 inch barrel will give you better range, accuracy, power, and balistics (those points are well known by the way) and is what a 5.56 round is designed to work out of. The shorter barrels are a compromise and a big one at that. I would strongly urge a 20 inch barrel.
Last edited:
RetiredUSNChief
Member
It amazes me how some of these threads break down so much.
The OP has a budget and a goal. That goal does NOT involve building an AR-15, it involves buying an AR-15 rifle. Given that he's not subsequently stated anywhere in 130-plus comments so far that he wants to build one, let's get off that subject. Let's also get off the arguments over how much it does or does not cost anybody else to build any kind of AR-15. Not germane to the conversation.
Also, suggesting where the price SHOULD be on any given make/model is likewise not germane. This is a personal, subjective opinion. The market determines what these prices are, not us as individuals.
That said, there is some value in making recommendations for alternate make/models in the same price range as the OPs budget, provided it meets the OPs objectives AND there is some qualifying justification, preferably something other than a person's subjective personal opinion. Such might include discussions on proprietary components vs non-proprietary components when it comes to modifications/repairs. Another example might be availability. Or reviews which point out strengths/weaknesses.
The OP has, in 130-plus postings, indicated several times that he's focusing on the M&P 15 Sport and the Ruger AR 556 and given a few of his reasons. These have the basic options he wants and are within his stated budget; unless someone can actually point out where these two choices are proven Lemons of the gun world and somehow worthy of being used as nothing more than door stops, let's respect his choices and tailor our discussions accordingly.
There are more AR-15 platform guns out there than you can shake a pointed stick at and endlessly bickering over every possible choice OTHER than the OPs is endlessly circular. It adds to the total confusion of a person trying to enter into the AR-15 ownership world.
OP:
The S&W M&P 15 Sport is a fine rifle by my experience. I just bought one for my wife and it's as accurate and smoothly operating as any other rifle I've ever shot. So far, 200 rounds have been put through it flawlessly. There are several people I work with who also have the exact same rifle and have collectively put several thousand rounds through them with no problems and no complaints. In my opinion, it's a solidly built rifle made by a long-standing firearms company with a good reputation. It's a great starter rifle that I can't see disappointing you.
The M&P 15 Sport is a 5.56, which will also fire .223. The 1:9 rifling will stabilize the most commonly used .223 ammunition, which is 55 gr. Longer/heavier bullets may not stabilize well, but some people appear to have no problems with them. See this link:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/pair-barrel-twist-rates-ammo/undefined
The rifle comes with Magpul Folding MBUS rear sight, which is a folding sight like what you stated you desired. The front sight is a fixed, raised sight. If you want to mount a red dot later, you can do this; however, you will need a mount that will raise the sight up high enough to sight over the front sight. Based on my experience, a 37 mm mount will do this. I discovered this while mounting a Vortex Sparc II on my wife's rifle, which comes with a mounting system that will accommodate four different heights up to 40 mm.
I bought this rifle for $669 (before taxes). I'm perfectly happy with it, and my wife loves it. There are many very positive reviews of this rifle out there, like this one:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ger/-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/
As for the Ruger 556, I don't have any experience with, nor do I know anybody at work that has one. Perhaps someone here can speak to that.
The OP has a budget and a goal. That goal does NOT involve building an AR-15, it involves buying an AR-15 rifle. Given that he's not subsequently stated anywhere in 130-plus comments so far that he wants to build one, let's get off that subject. Let's also get off the arguments over how much it does or does not cost anybody else to build any kind of AR-15. Not germane to the conversation.
Also, suggesting where the price SHOULD be on any given make/model is likewise not germane. This is a personal, subjective opinion. The market determines what these prices are, not us as individuals.
That said, there is some value in making recommendations for alternate make/models in the same price range as the OPs budget, provided it meets the OPs objectives AND there is some qualifying justification, preferably something other than a person's subjective personal opinion. Such might include discussions on proprietary components vs non-proprietary components when it comes to modifications/repairs. Another example might be availability. Or reviews which point out strengths/weaknesses.
The OP has, in 130-plus postings, indicated several times that he's focusing on the M&P 15 Sport and the Ruger AR 556 and given a few of his reasons. These have the basic options he wants and are within his stated budget; unless someone can actually point out where these two choices are proven Lemons of the gun world and somehow worthy of being used as nothing more than door stops, let's respect his choices and tailor our discussions accordingly.
There are more AR-15 platform guns out there than you can shake a pointed stick at and endlessly bickering over every possible choice OTHER than the OPs is endlessly circular. It adds to the total confusion of a person trying to enter into the AR-15 ownership world.
OP:
The S&W M&P 15 Sport is a fine rifle by my experience. I just bought one for my wife and it's as accurate and smoothly operating as any other rifle I've ever shot. So far, 200 rounds have been put through it flawlessly. There are several people I work with who also have the exact same rifle and have collectively put several thousand rounds through them with no problems and no complaints. In my opinion, it's a solidly built rifle made by a long-standing firearms company with a good reputation. It's a great starter rifle that I can't see disappointing you.
The M&P 15 Sport is a 5.56, which will also fire .223. The 1:9 rifling will stabilize the most commonly used .223 ammunition, which is 55 gr. Longer/heavier bullets may not stabilize well, but some people appear to have no problems with them. See this link:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/pair-barrel-twist-rates-ammo/undefined
The rifle comes with Magpul Folding MBUS rear sight, which is a folding sight like what you stated you desired. The front sight is a fixed, raised sight. If you want to mount a red dot later, you can do this; however, you will need a mount that will raise the sight up high enough to sight over the front sight. Based on my experience, a 37 mm mount will do this. I discovered this while mounting a Vortex Sparc II on my wife's rifle, which comes with a mounting system that will accommodate four different heights up to 40 mm.
I bought this rifle for $669 (before taxes). I'm perfectly happy with it, and my wife loves it. There are many very positive reviews of this rifle out there, like this one:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ger/-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/
As for the Ruger 556, I don't have any experience with, nor do I know anybody at work that has one. Perhaps someone here can speak to that.
My bottom line: S&W AR anything > Ruger AR anything.
Chrome lining or melonite treatment is a notable difference, and 1:7 vs 1:9 twist rate is a notable difference as well. They are different rifles at different prices for a reason. Whether or not the more expensive model is worth it to you is something only the buyer can decide, but they should be fully aware of the difference and implications thereof before making the decision.
We are well aware of that fact.
Fortunately we are also well aware of the fact that an awful lot of materials and processes go into assembling an AR type rifle than ones that dictate whether or not it is legally a machine gun.
Depends what you want to do with the rifle. A 4" longer barrel will alter the handling and maneuverability, for example. The military only uses a 14.5" barrel on most and a 10.3" barrel on quite a few as well, for example.
Chrome lining or melonite treatment is a notable difference, and 1:7 vs 1:9 twist rate is a notable difference as well. They are different rifles at different prices for a reason. Whether or not the more expensive model is worth it to you is something only the buyer can decide, but they should be fully aware of the difference and implications thereof before making the decision.
We are well aware of that fact.
Fortunately we are also well aware of the fact that an awful lot of materials and processes go into assembling an AR type rifle than ones that dictate whether or not it is legally a machine gun.
Depends what you want to do with the rifle. A 4" longer barrel will alter the handling and maneuverability, for example. The military only uses a 14.5" barrel on most and a 10.3" barrel on quite a few as well, for example.
Inebriated
Member
Both the Sport and regular M&P15 are 1/9, according to their site. Wasn't downplaying the differences, just pointing them out. And I forgot to put it in that post, but by all my research, their bolts and carriers are the same.Warp said:
But I'm with you on the S&W > Ruger off of track record alone.
Do show me where I said they were "the same."grter said:
I'll leave you to it, it'll take you a while.
A dust cover and forward assist is no inherent indication of quality. There are plenty of garbage AR's with them, and there are plenty of excellent AR's that have them and they never get used.
And no matter how much you love the word "milspec", a chrome-lined 4140 barrel is no more "milspec" than a melonite-lined 4140 barrel (which the Sport is, not a "bare barre").
henschman
Member
I think everyone here understands that the term "mil spec AR-15" refers to a rifle that follows the mil specs as much as an AR-15 can. We use that term because it is easier than saying "4150 chrome lined HPT/MPI barrel, forged F-marked front sight base, Carpenter 158 HPT/MPI shot-peened bolt with tool steel extractor, chrome lined 8620 carrier with staked Grade 8 fasteners, M4 meed ramps, 7075 receiver extension," etc.
What would you like us to call it?
C-grunt
Member
I wouldn't look down on a barrel (as long as its a good one) that is Melonite treated. There is some good debate out there that these treatments are better than chrome lining. Several militaries around the world have gone to these types of treatments for their barrels over chrome lining.
As per the OPs question of Sport v. Ruger I would buy the Sport. Its been out for several years and is known to be probably the best budget AR-15. The Ruger might be great but its to new to really say.
As per the OPs question of Sport v. Ruger I would buy the Sport. Its been out for several years and is known to be probably the best budget AR-15. The Ruger might be great but its to new to really say.
I can't believe the M&P 15 is a 1:9 barrel, I could have sworn it was a 1:7...what the heck. I guess I used to consciously know that which is one reason I don't rank S&W in the top portion of my personal list? Man, that's a shame (IMO)
That's too much to type man (and leaves out the very common cost savings of using a C vs H buffer).
The melonite seems to be a very good thing. It's too bad S&W changed the Sport barrel, it had been a 1:8 melonite, now it's that lame non-melonite non-chrome lined 1:9.
That's too much to type man (and leaves out the very common cost savings of using a C vs H buffer).
The melonite seems to be a very good thing. It's too bad S&W changed the Sport barrel, it had been a 1:8 melonite, now it's that lame non-melonite non-chrome lined 1:9.
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
M&P15 (811000) 4140 Chrome Lined 1:9
M&P15OR (811003) 4140 Chrome Lined 1:9
M&P15X (811008) 4140 Chrome Lined 1:9
M&P15T (811041) 4140 not specified (probably still nitrided) 1:8
M&P15TS (811024) 14.5" with pinned & welded Vortex FH, 4140 (was briefly 4150) chrome lined 1:7
M&P15PC (178016) 20" unspecified stainless steel 1:8, A2 fixed stock, Performance Center.
Then there are sub-variations of each like the camo PC rifle, and the various ban state compliant versions of the others.
I would get a 20 inch barrel. I think it won't disappoint. A 20 incher does make a difference for the 5.56.
The shorter barrels are just todays popular fad because it's currently used by the military and it's featured on most tv adventure shows.
Unless there is a situation specific grave need for the advantages of a shorter rifle that outweighs the whole lot you give up with a shorter barrel, I would get the barrel the bullet was designed to work out of which is a long one.
That is what I would do.
The shorter barrels are just todays popular fad because it's currently used by the military and it's featured on most tv adventure shows.
Unless there is a situation specific grave need for the advantages of a shorter rifle that outweighs the whole lot you give up with a shorter barrel, I would get the barrel the bullet was designed to work out of which is a long one.
That is what I would do.
C-grunt
Member
Really???? Well then that really bumps the Sport down a couple pegs in my book. Id get the Ruger.
Blade First
Member
"I priced out that Aero rifle, which by the way looks like a nice option, and it came out to 770 for the cheapest 16 inch rifle they make. But that is minus any iron sights and has a Carbine buffer instead of a H buffer."
Please go back to my post and pay attention to the specs. It isn't a *complete* rifle...it is an upper and a lower. Add'l parts needed are specified. This isn't currently-taught, government-sanctioned "math"...it is simple addition that any 2nd-grader should be able to perform.
And you are correct...that combo [which requires nothing more than pushing two pins to "make" a carbine] is an excellent option for the OP. Less expensive than the Colt's stripped offering and of better quality.
"You cannot build a mil-spec AR15 type rifle for $500 with new parts." -- Warp
Good luck proving that negative. You keep throwing out excuses as to how this just can't happen...but there are many of us who have done it. Period...point blank. 'Stubborn' is not a valid argument.
Please go back to my post and pay attention to the specs. It isn't a *complete* rifle...it is an upper and a lower. Add'l parts needed are specified. This isn't currently-taught, government-sanctioned "math"...it is simple addition that any 2nd-grader should be able to perform.
And you are correct...that combo [which requires nothing more than pushing two pins to "make" a carbine] is an excellent option for the OP. Less expensive than the Colt's stripped offering and of better quality.
"You cannot build a mil-spec AR15 type rifle for $500 with new parts." -- Warp
Good luck proving that negative. You keep throwing out excuses as to how this just can't happen...but there are many of us who have done it. Period...point blank. 'Stubborn' is not a valid argument.
I'm not the one who needs to "prove" anything or make excuses for anything..
A very specific claim was made. It was stated that one could build a "mil spec" AR15 type rifle for $500. That is not true. Simple as that.
If you want to claim that it is, show us.
- Status
