Help me understand reasons for an AR pistol, please.

Status
Not open for further replies.

UKWildcatFan

Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
517
Location
St. Louis metro
I'm not trying to be smart about it at all, so please withhold the smart comments back, but I don't understand the reason for such a short-barreled rifle. I mean an AR with a collapsible stock and 16" barrel is pretty compact. Why do yall have them, for what use, etc. I know they're very popular, so I might be missing something about them. Please help me out here, folks. Thanks!
 
i dont think many people have a genuine 'need' for them.....people have them pretty much because they are fun and different.
 
You go ahead and get the ar pistol, wait for atf approval, and when that comes in you turn the pistol into a rifle. I agree that an ar-pistol seems useless but when you think about hanging a suppressor off the end, a short barreled rifle is quite useful. Making a pistol first means one can go ahead and start buying/building and stay legal or even starts shooting in the interim.
 
A 10.5" barreled AR is quite functional, the MK18 CQBR (a 10.3" barreled M4) has seen extensive combat use in Iraq/Afghanistan with US Army SF and Navy SEALs among others.

Below 10" things get iffy, reliability is a problem and the ballistics get a lot worse.

The reason for the "pistol" AR is either can't own an SBR in that state, don't wanna do the paperwork, or as an interim while waiting on the stamp.
 
There are only two valid reasons for the so called SBR. Submachine gun using pistol rounds or rifle/subgun on which silencer will be installed. Semi-auto AKM or AR pistols with short barrels and no butt stock or folding stock make no sense to me.
 
Several reasons:

These things are crazy fun. I like the BOOM and get a big kick from the muzzle flash. Not very practical really. They are God awefull loud

They are more accurate than you might think. Maybe not rifle accurate but more accurate than other pistols.

They are just another toy to play with. Some of us May be a bit more jaded than others.

I remember a conversation I had with a guy once. He wanted a full ton diesel truck. I asked him why he thought he needed that kind of truck.... What he did for a living.... Answer, he worked in the paint department for BMW... He just wanted one. They were cool. Rock on!

Shouldn't this be in the pistol forum?

Thing is... If you don't get it don't bother. They are probably not for you.
 
There are only two valid reasons for the so called SBR. Submachine gun using pistol rounds or rifle/subgun on which silencer will be installed. Semi-auto AKM or AR pistols with short barrels and no butt stock or folding stock make no sense to me.
Well I'm glad I have no valid reason for owning my AR pistol.

Because I can, because I wanted one, because it is fun to shoot, because I can have a functional gun while I wait for a tax stamp... these are not valid reasons?

Just because they make no sense to you means nothing to anyone else. I see no valid reason to put hydraulics and 24" wheels on my car, but people still do it.
 
Last edited:
Why do they not make sense? accurate to 200 yds and they can be stashed almost anywhere. Lots of firepower in a small package. I love mine. 7.62 and 5.56.
 
I know they're very popular, so I might be missing something about them. Please help me out here, folks. Thanks!

I kind of agree with you. I built my first AR pistol a couple months ago. It shoots great. No plans for SBR or suppressor (my concession to the tin foil hat club:)). It really does not ring my bell but I'll keep it as it is a bit more compact and easier to store out in my shop than even a 16" carbine.

But other folks like them and that's ok. I am sure they cannot understand my enjoyment of long, heavy barreled, 12 pound, varmint ARs.
 
It should go without saying the ATF tries to ban ammo as an exercise in just banning it - there are millions of AR's with "rifle" barrels shooting it, the pistol population is still pretty slim.

A 10.5" AR does have some significant advantages. That length barrel is the preferred one for shipboarding operations, and there are those who use it for storming things like Pakistani townhouses. For us - it's about a 15% velocity loss, which makes it still effective for self defense.

Even hunting - which is why I'm building one. Sure, I have a 6.8 16" carbine for rifle season, but when pistol season rolls around, I can use the AR 10.5" and it still is effective to 200m or more. Accuracy is up to me, the bullet is still effective. And it's not about shooting one particular military round and then worrying about it's fragmentation velocity. It's about shooting open tip ammo that is known to expand well which delivers sufficient force.

Which also goes to self defense - and most of that is conducted at much closer ranges. If at home or in your yard, things are usually in handgun range, but handgun ammo can be less than optimal in some circumstance.

If it's a pistol, then there are also advantages that a "rifle" cannot enjoy. The use and carry of a pistol is now determined a lot more by CCW laws which allow concealed carry but ready to hand - including the front seat of your vehicle. On the other hand, a rifle is often restricted in many states due to anti-poaching laws which require it be unloaded, cased, and stored in the trunk. Carrying it otherwise would create difficulties in a traffic stop as it raises further questions of illegality.

Pistols can traverse state lines, whether an AR, Glock or 1911 makes no difference. But a SBR - as registered with the ATF - requires advance permission from the Feds beforehand. They offer a one year certificate which has to be renewed.

Of course, all of this is moot if you are found in New Jersey with either of them, but in states where the Pistol is legal and the rifle is restricted, and SBR's even banned, it's an easy choice to make.

An AR pistol is essentially identical to the SBR - the only difference between the two woulc be the stock, which constitutes a flat vertical surface to hold it against the shoulder. Two different interpretations in law, same identical ballistic profile, tho. Except in one regard - accuracy.

A stock reduces the wobble of the rear of the gun and makes sighting easier, enhancing the ability of the shooter as they have less variations and a steadier rest. But - it can't make them more accurate than the gun and their inherent ability. A pistol doesn't have that aim enhancing accessory - but with training the shooter can discipline themselves and become just as good again.

It's not that big an enhancement in accuracy when the purpose of a 10.5" barreled weapon is considered. These are close range weapons, the barrels shortened for maneuverability and handling. Most targets will be less than 100m, which means a good shooter will be putting groups right at the capability of the weapon at 2MOA, or, 2". And the average target, human or deer, has an 18" COM, or 18MOA. For hunting or combat purposes, the gun is still accurate enough.

Is a 10.5" barrel louder, yes, they are pushing another 8-10,000 psi at the muzzle because it's shorter. They are NOT expelling burning powder, tho, it's the unburnt gas hitting more oxygen that creates a fireball. That depends on the load, too, as even the military has gone to a low flash formula in the Mk262 77 gr OTM. As for the noise, muffs are the common answer, and most who shoot competitively use electronic muffs with active shot suppression and amplification, too. For $100 - the street price on Peltor Sport Tacs - you get plenty of protection and enhanced hearing of movement much further away than normal. A short barreled gun isn't a hindrance in that regard - it's a reason to get the muffs and enjoy their advantages. They are issue with the small teams that normally shoot 10.5" barreled guns anyway.

So, there are some good reasons for AR pistols, and they can be a better option than a temporary halfway house to being a government inspected and approved gun owner. For some, that's the icing on the cake, as we don't need no stinkin Stamps allowing us to own a gun.

There's more but it's the end of the evening and a long day ahead.
 
Makes for a good vehicle/truck gun to complement your hand gun carry. You don't have to worry about it being chambered in your vehicle if you have carry permit, or even having to worry about carrying it in a bag while walking down the road if your vehicle breaks down as long as you you have carry permit from gun friendly states.
 
The reason for the "pistol" AR is either can't own an SBR in that state, don't wanna do the paperwork, or as an interim while waiting on the stamp.

Or because you want to travel interstate with your short AR without first getting ATF's permission (Req'd for SBR/SBS)

Or because in some states (mine, for example), a pistol actually has looser restrictions for vehicle transport (long gun=no loaded chamber per DOW).
 
Or because you want to travel interstate with your short AR without first getting ATF's permission (Req'd for SBR/SBS)

Or because in some states (mine, for example), a pistol actually has looser restrictions for vehicle transport (long gun=no loaded chamber per DOW).
We should change name of our country to Separated Stated of America.
 
It should go without saying the ATF tries to ban ammo as an exercise in just banning it - there are millions of AR's with "rifle" barrels shooting it, the pistol population is still pretty slim.

A 10.5" AR does have some significant advantages. That length barrel is the preferred one for shipboarding operations, and there are those who use it for storming things like Pakistani townhouses. For us - it's about a 15% velocity loss, which makes it still effective for self defense.

Even hunting - which is why I'm building one. Sure, I have a 6.8 16" carbine for rifle season, but when pistol season rolls around, I can use the AR 10.5" and it still is effective to 200m or more. Accuracy is up to me, the bullet is still effective. And it's not about shooting one particular military round and then worrying about it's fragmentation velocity. It's about shooting open tip ammo that is known to expand well which delivers sufficient force.

Which also goes to self defense - and most of that is conducted at much closer ranges. If at home or in your yard, things are usually in handgun range, but handgun ammo can be less than optimal in some circumstance.

If it's a pistol, then there are also advantages that a "rifle" cannot enjoy. The use and carry of a pistol is now determined a lot more by CCW laws which allow concealed carry but ready to hand - including the front seat of your vehicle. On the other hand, a rifle is often restricted in many states due to anti-poaching laws which require it be unloaded, cased, and stored in the trunk. Carrying it otherwise would create difficulties in a traffic stop as it raises further questions of illegality.

Pistols can traverse state lines, whether an AR, Glock or 1911 makes no difference. But a SBR - as registered with the ATF - requires advance permission from the Feds beforehand. They offer a one year certificate which has to be renewed.

Of course, all of this is moot if you are found in New Jersey with either of them, but in states where the Pistol is legal and the rifle is restricted, and SBR's even banned, it's an easy choice to make.

An AR pistol is essentially identical to the SBR - the only difference between the two woulc be the stock, which constitutes a flat vertical surface to hold it against the shoulder. Two different interpretations in law, same identical ballistic profile, tho. Except in one regard - accuracy.

A stock reduces the wobble of the rear of the gun and makes sighting easier, enhancing the ability of the shooter as they have less variations and a steadier rest. But - it can't make them more accurate than the gun and their inherent ability. A pistol doesn't have that aim enhancing accessory - but with training the shooter can discipline themselves and become just as good again.

It's not that big an enhancement in accuracy when the purpose of a 10.5" barreled weapon is considered. These are close range weapons, the barrels shortened for maneuverability and handling. Most targets will be less than 100m, which means a good shooter will be putting groups right at the capability of the weapon at 2MOA, or, 2". And the average target, human or deer, has an 18" COM, or 18MOA. For hunting or combat purposes, the gun is still accurate enough.

Is a 10.5" barrel louder, yes, they are pushing another 8-10,000 psi at the muzzle because it's shorter. They are NOT expelling burning powder, tho, it's the unburnt gas hitting more oxygen that creates a fireball. That depends on the load, too, as even the military has gone to a low flash formula in the Mk262 77 gr OTM. As for the noise, muffs are the common answer, and most who shoot competitively use electronic muffs with active shot suppression and amplification, too. For $100 - the street price on Peltor Sport Tacs - you get plenty of protection and enhanced hearing of movement much further away than normal. A short barreled gun isn't a hindrance in that regard - it's a reason to get the muffs and enjoy their advantages. They are issue with the small teams that normally shoot 10.5" barreled guns anyway.

So, there are some good reasons for AR pistols, and they can be a better option than a temporary halfway house to being a government inspected and approved gun owner. For some, that's the icing on the cake, as we don't need no stinkin Stamps allowing us to own a gun.

There's more but it's the end of the evening and a long day ahead.
This is what I wanted. Great stuff. I really appreciate it.
 
Tirod

Great post! I also like the notion of a lot of firepower in a relatively compact package.
 
I mean an AR with a collapsible stock and 16" barrel is pretty compact.

Not with a suppressor mounted. Also nice to put everything together and know that the gun runs then, when the form 1 comes back approved, swap the tube for a stock.
 
Suppressors are nice to have, the cost/use ratio, not so much. Which is why I included the electronic muffs - you can have two sets for the price of just the Stamp, no trust fees needed, you don't wait months for approval, you aren't registered with the .Gov as the specific owner, and you save the cost of the suppressor, too. Which aren't cheap, I can build an AR pistol complete for the asking price of just the silencer.

I can also hear the footsteps of a game animal 50 yards away, which a suppressor does nothing to enhance. And the extra 6" of overall length is counterproductive to having a shorter firearm - a 10.5" barrel with 6" suppressor is right back at 16". Might as well carry the carbine, which will be just as light and swing the same way.

The muffs fit all calibers and weapons, the suppressor, not so much. SBR's and suppressors aren't all that, the technology we can use to sidestep anti gun restrictions is in this case cheaper and less intrusive on our rights. Some 2A supporters don't agree with having to be complicit with the NFA just to own something they want, and this circumvents any illegality - the same as the Spyderco hole in the blade got around switchblade laws.

Sometimes it turns out to be the better idea, too.
 
I live in a non SBR state. This is the closest I can legally get to owning one. Besides, they are a fun range toy.

IMG_4151_zpsexrxzcot.jpg
IMG_4155_zpsb2bwssr7.jpg


EDIT TO ADD:

My pistol above was bought from an 07/02 dealer, as configured. I refer you to the ATF letter written to Franklin Armory, here in California, that an AR pistol with a greater than 26" OAL is not legally considered a pistol or a rifle, it is considered an "Other". http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf Their reasoning aligns with their ruling on the Thompson Model 1927 A5 (You've seen pictures of it in the past, it's lik a Tommy Gun with no butt stock) and some other similarly configured guns that are too long to be concealable and therefore are not pistols but they are not rifles because they don't have a butt stock. The Franklin Armory letter from the ATF clarified this ruling and since then, several manufacturers and gun chains have retailed these "Others". It is not an AOW because I also own a Remington 870-based 12.1" barreled AOW that I the tax stamp for and I am well aware of the difference as is my dealer, who sold me both the Other and the AOW. www.ebrworks.com

Here is a link to the ATF letter to Franklin Armory about their "Other" they sell, it is the XO-26. http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html Generally, AR pistols with a 10" or 11" upper and a standard pistol buffer tube are greater than 26" OAL.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As for having an AR pistol, its nice to throw in your trunk and have a nice, compact rifle (pistol) thats easily stowed and ready for cqb, without carrying an NFA weapon at all times. It also allows you to conceal carry with CCW, unlike SBR (at least in my state)

Personally like 300blk over 5.56 in a 8.5" pistol.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top