Help me understand reasons for an AR pistol, please.
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morcey2
Member
Isn't proving a valid need the difference between "may issue" and "shall issue"? And then it all depends on who defines "valid".
I don't need a reason to own an AR pistol. I don't own one and don't foresee myself owning one if the future, but I don't condemn others who do own them. I also drive a mid 80's beater 4x4 even though I can easily afford a "better" truck. It's a matter of taste, just like guns.
Matt
I don't need a reason to own an AR pistol. I don't own one and don't foresee myself owning one if the future, but I don't condemn others who do own them. I also drive a mid 80's beater 4x4 even though I can easily afford a "better" truck. It's a matter of taste, just like guns.
Matt
henschman
Member
Among other reasons, because in a 2A situation it would be easy to slap a stock on it if the situation called for something compact with rifle firepower.
Why put a stock on it? Most confrontations are at very close range, and less than three shots fired. The few that go more than three, a 30 round mag will handle.
Sight alignment on an AR pistol under 100m should result in a hit, it's a 2MOA milspec barrel shooting an 18MOA COM target. Front sight on target, press trigger.
Stocks are just aim enhancing accessories - on a close range weapon they are not required, just nice to have. That's the issue with the AR pistol - it confronts our traditional notions of what is required, when what we need to think thru is what do we really need?
Nope, you don't need hydraulics or 24" wheels on a car, same for a firearm, you don't really need a stock until you are attempting to do something that becomes difficult for your skill level. SBR's are used side by side with handguns in a lot of the same scenarios, and nobody is complaining about the accuracy of a 5.5" weapon that can only be gripped in one place. The concern is about the amount of power and range. That's why the rifle caliber firearms are included to address any need.
If you can stalk game close enough to hit it with a bow, using a stockless firearm is well within it's capability. It's not about fractions of an inch improvements in group size, it's about a hit on a 18" x 18" center of mass to either stop a continuing attack or prevent game from being lost. Entirely how bolt action pistols with scopes came into being nearly 50 years ago.
They sell .30-30 Mare's Leg levers, the AR pistol is the modern equivalent.
Sight alignment on an AR pistol under 100m should result in a hit, it's a 2MOA milspec barrel shooting an 18MOA COM target. Front sight on target, press trigger.
Stocks are just aim enhancing accessories - on a close range weapon they are not required, just nice to have. That's the issue with the AR pistol - it confronts our traditional notions of what is required, when what we need to think thru is what do we really need?
Nope, you don't need hydraulics or 24" wheels on a car, same for a firearm, you don't really need a stock until you are attempting to do something that becomes difficult for your skill level. SBR's are used side by side with handguns in a lot of the same scenarios, and nobody is complaining about the accuracy of a 5.5" weapon that can only be gripped in one place. The concern is about the amount of power and range. That's why the rifle caliber firearms are included to address any need.
If you can stalk game close enough to hit it with a bow, using a stockless firearm is well within it's capability. It's not about fractions of an inch improvements in group size, it's about a hit on a 18" x 18" center of mass to either stop a continuing attack or prevent game from being lost. Entirely how bolt action pistols with scopes came into being nearly 50 years ago.
They sell .30-30 Mare's Leg levers, the AR pistol is the modern equivalent.
This is my plan, a 7-10in barrel with a couple 30 rd Pmags is a tiny package with ALOT of fire power!
I'm going to address the above and no other point in this discussion, because I see it used so often-
So what? The above is a statement based on statistics, not reality. It could mean that out of ten shootings (for example) that only three shots were fired each time- no more, no less. Or it could mean that seven times, only one shot was needed and three times, nine shots were needed.
In fact, statistically speaking, emergency gear is rarely, if ever, needed. Why wear seatbelts, carry a spare tire in the trunk, have a fire extinguisher, a first aid kit and a defensive firearm? Because when you do need them, you're already outside the statistical norm and chances are, you REALLY need them. Choosing your emergency gear based on statistics like "most shootings are resolved with three shots" is a poor bet
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Well, I don't consider my AK pistol as my go to weapon (my Mossberg 590A1 is), but I'd certainly feel safe if I did need to pick this up for HD. 30 rounds of AK in a short configuration will very likely outgun most confrontations. Or should I put the 75 round drum on? 
USAF_Vet
Member
Before you get your underroos in a twist, why don'y you go back and actually read the entire post you quoted of mine, including the post I quoted and responded too.
The fact that you compare me to Bloomberg is funny, but you go right ahead and keep twisting words to find a reason to be insulted.
To alleviate any further misunderstandings, I'll go back and add a question mark to my original post. You know, the one where I said I owned an AR pistol. Some people.
Glock_10mm
Member
Hey Capy, thanks for the legal clarification. I only asked because this was a pistol thread and i wanted to make sure you and other posters were aware that a vertical foregrip on a pistol was a no-go.
You are correct though, an oal of 26" or greater classifies as a title 1 but not as pistol or rifle and is allowed as long as a stockbhas never been attached to the receiver. Ive seen this before with 14" birdshead grip 12ga pgo shotguns (though technically they are not shotguns, simply title 1)
Nice gun!
You are correct though, an oal of 26" or greater classifies as a title 1 but not as pistol or rifle and is allowed as long as a stockbhas never been attached to the receiver. Ive seen this before with 14" birdshead grip 12ga pgo shotguns (though technically they are not shotguns, simply title 1)
Nice gun!
Glock_10mm
Member
SVT, if your planning on a 7" version, you should consider a caliber other than 5.56, and if possible changing over to a gas piston system.
300blk or 7.62x39 are excellent performers out of a 7-10 barrel. 5.56 really needs 10" minimum to see ots max potential.
Plus with a gas piston you can do away with the buffer tube, even easier to stash.
Just my $0.02
300blk or 7.62x39 are excellent performers out of a 7-10 barrel. 5.56 really needs 10" minimum to see ots max potential.
Plus with a gas piston you can do away with the buffer tube, even easier to stash.
Just my $0.02
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Most people probably own them for the fun factor, I'd expect. You lose a whole lot of shootability and effectiveness with the really short barrels in .223, and the lack of a shoulder stock makes them less effective than a real carbine, but they do look like fun range toys.
For defensive use, a true SBR in a caliber optimized for a short barrel might make a lot of sense, but a stockless super-short .223 doesn't, as .223 out of a super-shorty wastes the majority of its energy making noise and flash.
For defensive use, a true SBR in a caliber optimized for a short barrel might make a lot of sense, but a stockless super-short .223 doesn't, as .223 out of a super-shorty wastes the majority of its energy making noise and flash.
RainDodger
Member
I'm one of the guys that sees no sense in them either.... but I also know there's lots of you out there that DO see sense in them, so I'm on your side! Buy 'em and have fun with 'em! It's your right to do so!
Besides, I probably have a lot of gun stuff that makes no sense to other people... that's what makes our country a great one!
Besides, I probably have a lot of gun stuff that makes no sense to other people... that's what makes our country a great one!
I personally have no use for them. I have friends that own them and I have shot them quite a bit but I still have no desire to own one. Every time someone brings theirs to the farm for a session they ask if I want to shoot it and I always say yes. A year or more ago we had a golf ball attachment that we used and it was about like my actual golf game. I could send the ball a long way but I had no idea where it was going.
I do understand the cool factor but personally they don't do anything for me. Neither does an AK pistol. With that said I see no problem whatever with others owning and enjoying them.
I do understand the cool factor but personally they don't do anything for me. Neither does an AK pistol. With that said I see no problem whatever with others owning and enjoying them.
justice06rr
Member
Actually its not that compact. A collapsed M4 Carbine is about 32" at is shortest. Not enough to put in a backpack and usually has to travel in a rifle case.
I've had both an AR and AK pistol. If you've never shot or owned one, give it a chance. They will put a smile on your face. The practicality of owning one depends on how you plan to use it for your own purposes. It could be just a fun gun for plinking, or it could be used as a backpack or car/truck gun when traveling.
Here were the pistols I've owned. 10.5" AR that previously had the SigBrace when it was ok to shoulder. The 12"-barreled AK pistol is very compact at 21" OAL and easily fits in a backpack. They're also still accurate enough for offhand use within 50yards, and I can easily shoot soda cans at that range. Both have good ballistic effectiveness for short distances (~100yds), and when equipped with a red dot, are quite easy to shoot/acquire your target.
It is quite neat to have the firepower of an AK pistol with a 40-round mag stored in your backpack. It makes for a great hiking gun and you can eliminate almost any animal threat if needed.
Yes, the AR buffer tube presents an issue of length. There are versions which incorporate a new spring arrangement to eliminate it. With a 10.5" barrel a standard AR can get under 26" and will fit in a tennis racquet bag, which is becoming a cliché in some circles.
They are far from range toys, no firearm is. Since the only distinct difference between an AR pistol and the Mk18/CQBR used by ship boarding teams and small units is a stock, I find the assertion silly. If they are a primary weapon chosen by skilled professionals for use in urban settings or close confines, so much the better at presenting valid credentials.
Sure, some people like the noise and play spray and pray, I've seen it done with lots of deadly weapons over the years. The intent of the shooter doesn't change the lethality of it's use.
That there is ANY connection to the recent issue of the brace being used on the AR pistol and 5.56 AP ammo being banned goes to the lack of informed opinion by some. The AP issue has been going on since "sporting purposes" got inserted into legislation, and it took more legislation to exempt certain rounds. There are actually few bans at all, the latest on the 7N6 wasn't - it was a trade ban on it being Russian, not AP.
There isn't a ban on 5.56 AP, and there are bills being introduced to Congress to strip "sporting purposes" from the law. Seems the ATF's effort isn't working out so well, it just got a couple of million people to make Congress wake up and do something about it.
And a lot of them mentioned "Ban the ATF." Nobody did that before. Now it's being said. For that matter, some presidential candidates are saying the 2A is there to keep government from getting out of hand, right out on camera. It's how this election is going to play out, can we get the downtrodden and underpaid white male working class guy to vote the right way instead of calling him a racist pig?
The best one at it gets elected.
They are far from range toys, no firearm is. Since the only distinct difference between an AR pistol and the Mk18/CQBR used by ship boarding teams and small units is a stock, I find the assertion silly. If they are a primary weapon chosen by skilled professionals for use in urban settings or close confines, so much the better at presenting valid credentials.
Sure, some people like the noise and play spray and pray, I've seen it done with lots of deadly weapons over the years. The intent of the shooter doesn't change the lethality of it's use.
That there is ANY connection to the recent issue of the brace being used on the AR pistol and 5.56 AP ammo being banned goes to the lack of informed opinion by some. The AP issue has been going on since "sporting purposes" got inserted into legislation, and it took more legislation to exempt certain rounds. There are actually few bans at all, the latest on the 7N6 wasn't - it was a trade ban on it being Russian, not AP.
There isn't a ban on 5.56 AP, and there are bills being introduced to Congress to strip "sporting purposes" from the law. Seems the ATF's effort isn't working out so well, it just got a couple of million people to make Congress wake up and do something about it.
And a lot of them mentioned "Ban the ATF." Nobody did that before. Now it's being said. For that matter, some presidential candidates are saying the 2A is there to keep government from getting out of hand, right out on camera. It's how this election is going to play out, can we get the downtrodden and underpaid white male working class guy to vote the right way instead of calling him a racist pig?
The best one at it gets elected.
sappyg
Member
I like the way you think Tirod.
Things do look like they are turning in our direction. One too many gun grabbers woke up the sleeping giant.
Traded into another 10.5" upper this week because the owner got scared of the arbitrary ATF rules.
Things do look like they are turning in our direction. One too many gun grabbers woke up the sleeping giant.
Traded into another 10.5" upper this week because the owner got scared of the arbitrary ATF rules.
Jackal
Member
I tried the pistol AR thing with a Colt 6933 pistol. I just didnt get it. Sure its a few inches shorter and kinda fun to plink with, but its also losing a lot of power in an already anemic poodle shooter. .223/5.56 is a varmint round we happen to use for military purposes. Losing almost 500fps on the 5.56 from a pistol barrel is putting it in the .22 Hornet ballistic range..... I love my 5.56's, but consider it already nerfed by a 16"bbl. At 10.5-11.5, its just a loud, small step above rimfire...
sappyg
Member
^ um... No.
To me, they are pretty useless. I'd put them on the list with the Taurus Judge and the .30-30 Mare's leg. However, my opinion is of no value to anyone else. If you think you might like one of these, then you should get one. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, trade it or sell it. This is America and we have freedom of choice.
The MK262 is getting 2,700 fps from 5.56, with a 77gr OTM bullet. Not 55gr.
Is there a 500fps loss, not quite, but yes, a shorter barrel does that. Is it a huge loss, no, what is a short barrel for? Not 500m. Same as a 9mm or .45ACP, you accept the difference because the range and target are NOT the same intent as with a 20" rifle.
Therefore, confusing the issue with snippets of ballistic info is really dealing with misinformation. I don't see the owners of 10.5" .308's complaining about it, and those building .300BO with 8" barrels aren't either.
The application is to use it as a pistol, it has more than enough lethality even at extended pistol ranges, and certainly a lot more ammo capacity. Not to forget the Navy and other small unit's deliberately chose to go this course for a combat weapon with the Mk18/CQBR for shipboarding and urban use. They've been using it for over ten years now with a dedicated round and the results are acceptable.
One notable target was buried at sea.
You can't get a 20" barreled rifle down 30" hallways or passageways and thru 26" doors and hatches easily. And there is no reason for the 500m capability when most shots are going to be less than 21 feet. You leave the big guns outside where they can have overwatch and are needed.
Application is the key - every gun should be selected for what range and target it will be employed on. Deliberately choosing the wrong one and trying to make do isn't in anyone's best interest. Use an AR pistol within it's operating limits and it's the answer.
Nobody should expect to get 800m sniper like results out of it, any more than they would expect it from a 16" carbine with red dot.
Is there a 500fps loss, not quite, but yes, a shorter barrel does that. Is it a huge loss, no, what is a short barrel for? Not 500m. Same as a 9mm or .45ACP, you accept the difference because the range and target are NOT the same intent as with a 20" rifle.
Therefore, confusing the issue with snippets of ballistic info is really dealing with misinformation. I don't see the owners of 10.5" .308's complaining about it, and those building .300BO with 8" barrels aren't either.
The application is to use it as a pistol, it has more than enough lethality even at extended pistol ranges, and certainly a lot more ammo capacity. Not to forget the Navy and other small unit's deliberately chose to go this course for a combat weapon with the Mk18/CQBR for shipboarding and urban use. They've been using it for over ten years now with a dedicated round and the results are acceptable.
One notable target was buried at sea.
You can't get a 20" barreled rifle down 30" hallways or passageways and thru 26" doors and hatches easily. And there is no reason for the 500m capability when most shots are going to be less than 21 feet. You leave the big guns outside where they can have overwatch and are needed.
Application is the key - every gun should be selected for what range and target it will be employed on. Deliberately choosing the wrong one and trying to make do isn't in anyone's best interest. Use an AR pistol within it's operating limits and it's the answer.
Nobody should expect to get 800m sniper like results out of it, any more than they would expect it from a 16" carbine with red dot.
If we attempted to dance around the anti's and please them all the time, it would be simple: line up at the Police station and turn them all in, like Great Britain or Australia.
Obviously some would do the exact opposite, and practice a philosophy that involved having the gun pried from their cold dead hands.
Which view someone prefers to adopt is up to them, as are the 50 shades of grey in between. Blaming the AR pistol for all that, tho, no. It was going on before the AWB, and the target then was 20" barreled AR 15 evil black rifles.
That should demonstrate that the real issue isn't what gun, it's ANY gun to an anti.
What is even more interesting is that the AR pistol is only blamed by other shooters, and only since M855 was proposed as being AP. The cause and effect is almost entirely in the minds of those who would offer throwing it under the bus as tribute paying off the anti's.
They will only come back and ask for something else - like roving bandits, or ISIS. Rolling over and playing their game isn't how we defend our rights.
There's no large scale outcry against AR pistols by the anti gunners, it's mostly coming from inside our own ranks, and it's not going to add much credibility to those who advocate giving it up as if it will placate the anti's. Those of us who have seen gun rights expand in the last 30 years didn't do it by giving the anti's anything they asked for. And they aren't even asking.
Obviously some would do the exact opposite, and practice a philosophy that involved having the gun pried from their cold dead hands.
Which view someone prefers to adopt is up to them, as are the 50 shades of grey in between. Blaming the AR pistol for all that, tho, no. It was going on before the AWB, and the target then was 20" barreled AR 15 evil black rifles.
That should demonstrate that the real issue isn't what gun, it's ANY gun to an anti.
What is even more interesting is that the AR pistol is only blamed by other shooters, and only since M855 was proposed as being AP. The cause and effect is almost entirely in the minds of those who would offer throwing it under the bus as tribute paying off the anti's.
They will only come back and ask for something else - like roving bandits, or ISIS. Rolling over and playing their game isn't how we defend our rights.
There's no large scale outcry against AR pistols by the anti gunners, it's mostly coming from inside our own ranks, and it's not going to add much credibility to those who advocate giving it up as if it will placate the anti's. Those of us who have seen gun rights expand in the last 30 years didn't do it by giving the anti's anything they asked for. And they aren't even asking.
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