Help me understand the value of a short reset trigger, please.

[RustyShackelford]

SWAT, special operations, Walther....

In the 2000s, Walther offered a few P99s and P990s in different formats.
S&W which still had a special deal with Walther offered a polymer frame SW99, .
Walther T&Eed a line of 9mm/.40S&W/.357sig sidearms with AS(anti-stress) and QA(quick action). These striker fired trigger systems were marketed by the request of SWAT/counter-terrorist/hostage rescue squads in Europe that wanted to upgrade the weapons after 9/11/2001.
The Anti-Stress & QA Walthers were a lot like short reset or light trigger pulls.
They were not meant for the casual shooter or collector, these pistols were intended for sworn officers or those able to devote the time-skills to safely use it.
These P99s didn't last very long. I think the QA versions sold better in the USA but even then, these trigger formats didn't hold up. The new PPQ series seems to benefit from Walthers older models. They get high marks from many target & law enforcement shooters. I'd buy or carry a Walther PPQ m2 in 9x19mm or .40 without any problems.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I remember the Walther P99s.

Two things stand out in my mind about the trigger:
1. The DA trigger stroke felt like it went on forever
2. The reset was the shortest I'd ever felt on any pistol (including the 1911)

They were very nice pistols with:
1. Interchangeable backstraps (I believe the first on the market)
2. Second strike capability
3. Ambidextrous magazine releases
4. Great placement of the de-cocker (on the slide, next to the rear sight)
5. The celebrity status of having been a Bond gun

 

[ugaarguy]

In the 2000s, Walther offered a few P99s and P990s in different formats.
S&W which still had a special deal with Walther offered a polymer frame SW99, .

Did you mean to say that S&W and Walther had an agreement in which S&W was the exclusive importer of Walther firearms to the US (and manufactured Walther firearms that couldn't be imported to the US) and that Walther was the exclusive importer and distributor of S&W firearms to Europe? The S&W99 was an externally modified P99 frame imported from Germany with the bbl and slide made by and final assembly done by S&W in the US.

Walther T&Eed a line of 9mm/.40S&W/.357sig sidearms with AS(anti-stress) and QA(quick action). These striker fired trigger systems were marketed by the request of SWAT/counter-terrorist/hostage rescue squads in Europe that wanted to upgrade the weapons after 9/11/2001.
The Anti-Stress & QA Walthers were a lot like short reset or light trigger pulls.

That's incorrect. First, the P99 was introduced in 1996. The QA trigger, while having a semi-short reset, broke at 8.5 lbs. The P990 (later P99 DAO) had both the 8.5 lb trigger pull and a longer pull length than the QA. The AS operates like a DA/SA hammer fired pistol. However, the trigger can be staged (with a slight pull like a set trigger) causing it to operate essentially in single action mode for all shots. There's also a striker decocker button on the slide of the AS pistols.

They were not meant for the casual shooter or collector, these pistols were intended for sworn officers or those able to devote the time-skills to safely use it.

That's utter nonsense. The QA is just like a Glock with a NY1 trigger spring, but without the short reset Glocks are capable of. The 990/DAO operate like any other DAO pistol. There's nothing complicated about either one. The AS operates like any other DA/SA pistol but adds the option to stage the trigger and make it operate like a DA/SA pistol when the hammer is manually cocked before the first shot. The decocker button on the slide is just like a decocker on any hammer fired DA/SA pistol. There's nothing complicated about that variant. Further, if Walther didn't intend them for casual shooters they wouldn't have exported them for civilian sales to the US.

The Mil/LE only variant is the P99Q. It has a 7.2 lb pull for all shots, a .5" trigger travel, and a .2" trigger reset: That's nearly identical to a Glock with a stock connector and NY1 trigger spring. It also has external changes that were first incorporated in the Polish license built P99 RAD, manufactured by Radom. I suspect that the P99Q is only marketed to Mil/LE because the trigger is so close to the P99QA that the P99Q would likewise be a slow seller on the civilian market.

These P99s didn't last very long. I think the QA versions sold better in the USA but even then, these trigger formats didn't hold up.

I don't known when the P99QA was discontinued, but the P99AS is still on the Walther USA web page, and they're still in stock at Bud's. In S&W's absence the German frame / USA top end variants have reemerged as the Magnum Research MR Eagle pistols. 19 years on the market is hardly short lived.

The new PPQ series seems to benefit from Walthers older models. They get high marks from many target & law enforcement shooters. I'd buy or carry a Walther PPQ m2 in 9x19mm or .40 without any problems.

The PPQ, which truly has a single action only striker fired mechanism, is the pistol that Walther markets as Special Operations pistol in Germany. That's because the PPQ actually has too light and short a trigger pull to meet German technical specs for a police duty pistol. In the US Walther markets the PPQ as a general use civilian and LE pistol.

 

[1John1:9]

Good discussion. Someone said it before me and it was reiterated.........The trouble comes when you are shooting a gun with a short reset on a consistent basis........And then you shoot a gun with a long reset.

My longest used carry gun was a Walther P99 (very very short reset). I shot it every weekend, sometimes 3x a week, putting 5,000 rounds within several months. After this, I took my seldom shot LCR revolver out and quickly found I was short stroking the trigger. I had never done this while I owned the LCR and a Ruger SR9c. Both had similar reset points.

For this reason, not only does my semi-auto carry gun have a moderate reset, but I also don't shoot thumbs forward with my semi-auto. If I shoot thumbs forward with my snubby revolver, I risk getting burned on my off hand thumb from the cylinder gasses.

I prefer to keep my guns as similar as I can. And I shoot with my dominant thumb down against the frame and my weak thumb hanging loose. It's not as tactical or easy to shoot two handed, but my one handed shooting has the same grip as my two handed shooting and I hold my revolver the same as I do my semi-auto.

 

[Zendude]

I have seen women have problems operating a handgun with a long trigger reset. If you have short fingers, a long trigger pull and long reset can be awkward to operate.

 

[Ankeny]

Faster shooters, in competition, are all resetting their triggers in parallel and have the trigger reset and have taken up the slack prior to the sights returning onto the target.

That all depends on the difficulty level of the shot. To quote Todd Jarret, "To shoot fast you need to learn to slap the trigger." "Taking up the slack" on an 18 ounce trigger while hammering out a sub 5 second el pres isn't gonna happen.

 

[Zendude]

Good discussion. Someone said it before me and it was reiterated.........The trouble comes when you are shooting a gun with a short reset on a consistent basis........And then you shoot a gun with a long reset.



My longest used carry gun was a Walther P99 (very very short reset). I shot it every weekend, sometimes 3x a week, putting 5,000 rounds within several months. After this, I took my seldom shot LCR revolver out and quickly found I was short stroking the trigger. I had never done this while I owned the LCR and a Ruger SR9c. Both had similar reset points.



For this reason, not only does my semi-auto carry gun have a moderate reset, but I also don't shoot thumbs forward with my semi-auto. If I shoot thumbs forward with my snubby revolver, I risk getting burned on my off hand thumb from the cylinder gasses.



I prefer to keep my guns as similar as I can. And I shoot with my dominant thumb down against the frame and my weak thumb hanging loose. It's not as tactical or easy to shoot two handed, but my one handed shooting has the same grip as my two handed shooting and I hold my revolver the same as I do my semi-auto.

Agree.. Muscle memory is difficult to fight. My slide bites have happened after shooting only revolvers for any appreciable length of time.

 

[Zach S]

I think you're on the right track, and personally, I think too much is made of reset.

I always thought the same. With double taps, I would shoot my Glock from the reset. Not a big deal since I normally shoot 1911s.

Then I bought a Kahr... Or an LDA, I can't remember which I bought first, but not having that short reset resulted in a few Whiskey Tango Foxtrot moments.

I own another Kahr, but the LDA, I consider a lesson learned.

 

[Delford]

Kahr in .45 once you get used to the trigger still isn't as fast for double taps as a G17 or G22 that has had trigger work. That is not a problem for me as I can shoot it fast, stay on target and make a 2 to 3 inch group at 15 yards. That's how I practice since that's the gun I rely on for EDC. I do try to practice twice a month. My friend lets me shoot his Glocks for fun and I'm fast and accurate but I choose the Kahr because it conceals very well and I am adept at using it properly.

 

[Ankeny]

Fast means nothing without some numbers. Fast and accurate needs even more numbers.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Fast is fine.....

But accuracy is final.

 

[45_auto]

Fast is fine.....
But accuracy is final.

Do you believe that a target pistol is the ultimate self-defense handgun?

Everyone I know raves about the accuracy of my Contender pistol in .30-30 Ackley Improved (golf balls on the 100 yard berm are no challenge), but it would be near the bottom of the list when choosing a self-defense pistol, although it does have a very crisp trigger with a short reset!

 

[Zendude]

Is a beginner or average shooter likely to be more accurate with a snub revolver shooting it in single action mode or double action mode?
At point blank range maybe not much difference. But at greater than 3 yards i think there will be a difference.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Is a beginner or average shooter likely to be more accurate with a snub revolver shooting it in single action mode or double action mode?
At point blank range maybe not much difference. But at greater than 3 yards i think there will be a difference.

Your post has nothing to do with trigger reset.

But to answer your question, DA as the distance increases, until you get out to 50 yards

 

[Zendude]

Your post has nothing to do with trigger reset.

But to answer your question, DA as the distance increases, until you get out to 50 yards

Yeah, I suppose this is straying from the original topic. In a nutshell, a short trigger reset will reduce the possibility of short-stroking the trigger because the trigger does not physically need to travel as far to reset.

 

[9mmepiphany]

In a nutshell, a short trigger reset will reduce the possibility of short-stroking the trigger because the trigger does not physically need to travel as far to reset.

Correct trigger management techniques does the same thing...it really is more about muscle memory than anything else.

You can't expect optimal results if you don't have proper training and don't practice