Help me understand reasons for an AR pistol, please.

[benEzra]

There's no large scale outcry against AR pistols by the anti gunners, it's mostly coming from inside our own ranks, and it's not going to add much credibility to those who advocate giving it up as if it will placate the anti's. Those of us who have seen gun rights expand in the last 30 years didn't do it by giving the anti's anything they asked for. And they aren't even asking.

I'm all for people owning AR and AK pistols, even if the only reason someone buys one is as a fun range toy or to give a one-fingered salute to Bloomberg et al. Same for PGO shotguns.

For a home-defense firearm, I do believe that there are more effective choices than shorty rifle-based pistols (especially the sub-10.5's in .223/5.56mm) or PGO shotguns. That doesn't mean people don't have the right to freely own them, keep them for HD/SD, or whatever.

As an aside, the prohibitionists' focus on M855 out of pistols is asinine, since M855 actually has *less* ability to penetrate Level III AR500 (won't penetrate even out of a 20" barrel at close range, whereas M193 may), and out of an AR pistol even an entire magazine of M855 is unlikely to get through the plate. Going after M855 as "armor piercing" is like going after stock Honda Civics for "excessive horsepower".

 

[hatt]

There's no large scale outcry against AR pistols by the anti gunners, it's mostly coming from inside our own ranks, and it's not going to add much credibility to those who advocate giving it up as if it will placate the anti's.

You nailed that one. Add open carry to that list too. I've seen the enemy, and it's us. 15+ years ago I made sure to carry my evil preban AKM underfolder around every time I went to a gunshow just to see the antis give me looks and talk their nonsense. Shoving Freedom in people's faces is the way to change them.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Shoving Freedom in people's faces is the way to change them.

Yeah, it is..............that's how you tip ambivalent fence sitters and non-partisan corporations into the anti crowd. Just look at the Texas shenanigans last year if you have any doubt.

Loud/obnoxious/obtrusive in-your-face tactics are off-putting, whether it's about RKBA, gay rights, religion or anything else.

 

[jerkface11]

Yeah, it is..............that's how you tip ambivalent fence sitters and non-partisan corporations into the anti crowd. Just look at the Texas shenanigans last year if you have any doubt.

Is that why they're getting open carry?

 

[MachIVshooter]

Is that why they're getting open carry?

They almost lost that initiative because of the actions of these idiots. OC was in queue before the neckbeards started their nonsense. They nearly set the entire movement back.

Sally soccer mom who has never given much thought to guns certainly hears the news and knows what they can do on MSM, but when she is personally presented with some little d-bag holding his AK at the low ready in a Chipotle while his slovenly 400 lb counterpart who looks like he finally ended his 40 hour world of warcraft marathon in mommy's basement has an SKS over his shoulder, you can bet she's not thinking "well, thank goodness we have the second amendment!"

Think about it: if a really effeminate guy sporting a rainbow scarf and a caricatural lisp walks up to you, gives his boyfriend a big, juicy smooch, and then screams in your face "we're here, we're queer, get used to it!", does that make you want to support gay marriage?

I'll say it again. In-your-face tactics do more harm than good with the majority population you're courting for support.

 

[d2wing]

I have seen them used in areas where only shotguns and pistol were legal for deer.

 

[USAF_Vet]

They almost lost that initiative because of the actions of these idiots. OC was in queue before the neckbeards started their nonsense. They nearly set the entire movement back.

Sally soccer mom who has never given much thought to guns certainly hears the news and knows what they can do on MSM, but when she is personally presented with some little d-bag holding his AK at the low ready in a Chipotle while his slovenly 400 lb counterpart who looks like he finally ended his 40 hour world of warcraft marathon in mommy's basement has an SKS over his shoulder, you can bet she's not thinking "well, thank goodness we have the second amendment!"

Think about it: if a really effeminate guy sporting a rainbow scarf and a caricatural lisp walks up to you, gives his boyfriend a big, juicy smooch, and then screams in your face "we're here, we're queer, get used to it!", does that make you want to support gay marriage?

I'll say it again. In-your-face tactics do more harm than good with the majority population you're courting for support.

I used this argument myself once upon a time. I'm ok with OC, just be smart about it.

But, the whole "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" WORKED. Sorta.

Thirty years ago, gay marriage was unheard of. Today, how many states recognize it? Not a majority, not yet. But it's going to happen eventually. Like gun control vs. gun freedom, not all states have it. Some states have more freedom and less control.

Although, it seems like the "in your face" tactics only work depending on the subject matter. IT's more like preaching to the choir. If you already support XXX, then having XXX shoved in your face isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if you're already opposed to XXX, then having it shoved in your face isn't likely to gain your support.

As always, it's the fence sitters we have to coddle and win over to our side. Shoving your cause in their face is likely to knock them off the fence.

Having Fudds in the rank of the pro 2A movement is like having a Catholic Pro-Life priest attending a planned parenthood rally and human sacrifice party, or whatever it is they do behind those walls.

If you like the freedom to own guns, accept that it includes ALL guns. Not just your bird shotgun or deer rifle, but everything.

 

[Panzerschwein]

A Kel-Tec PLR-16 would be a great concealable, yet accurate pistol that could defeat body armor (with the right load) and still fit in a laptop bag.

Imagine how well armed you'd be with a PLR-16 with stabilizing sling, red dot sight, and several 30 round mags loaded with M855 penetrator rounds during say and active shooter scenario. Think of it as an FN Five SeveN pistol on steroids!!

 

[strambo]

There is a difference with the in your face gay marriage tactics vs RKBA. Yes, on the undecided they have the same effect, a turn off.

However, the gay marriage movement is in accordance with the media propaganda, hollywood/music industry propaganda, and political correctness as well as the notion that if you oppose it, you are an anti civil rights biggot.

The RKBA movement is on the opposite side of the media, political correctness, pop-culture pressure so undecideds are already feeling cultural pressure...this just tips it past the breaking point for them.

 

[redbullitt]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but since it is a pistol it makes one heck of a truck gun here, meaning you can have it loaded up. I have my CCW here, but the law does not look kindly on a long gun ready to roll in the truck. Pistol is ok, SOOO an AR pistol makes an excellent tool for that situation IMHO.

 

[benEzra]

But, the whole "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" WORKED. Sorta.

Thirty years ago, gay marriage was unheard of. Today, how many states recognize it? Not a majority, not yet. But it's going to happen eventually. Like gun control vs. gun freedom, not all states have it. Some states have more freedom and less control.

Thing is, that movement didn't make much headway until the normal, mainstream GLBT people became the face of the movement, and reined in the in-yer-face idiots. San Francisco style parades down the aisles of Baptist churches in flyover country would have backfired and set the movement back badly, had they become common. Sort of like idiots carrying rifles at low ready into restaurants and state capitols helped Bloomberg's astroturf groups and gave responsible CC and OC advocates a black eye.

 

[hatt]

They almost lost that initiative because of the actions of these idiots. OC was in queue before the neckbeards started their nonsense. They nearly set the entire movement back.

If we look at the facts TX hasn't had OC for 140 years. Then some activists started up and now it's imminent. But at the same time OC activists are jeopardizing OC? OK, that makes sense.

 

[Browning]

If we look at the facts TX hasn't had OC for 140 years. Then some activists started up and now it's imminent. But at the same time OC activists are jeopardizing OC? OK, that makes sense.

We're getting open carry in Texas because some activists got together with some State Representatives who sponsored the bill which was then voted on. The legislators voted for it because it's popular with regular people and that gets them votes.

Same way switchblades became legal it Texas . . . Activists and legislators. Those knife activists (most of whom double on the 2A side of things) didn't run around and stick knives in people's faces to accustom them to the sight of knives for the bills passage.

Carrying rifles into Target and Chipolte had little to do with success. That can only be done in State government. If anything it galvanized the anti-freedom crowd into action. If you doubt it I'll direct you to Facebook, Twitter and a whole host of liberal Sally soccer mom websites and blogs.

 

[AR-15Nutt]

do not know how to answer your Q. but.., i had one of the "original" AR pistols because it was "cool", sold it because it had too many malfunctions and was accurate to 20 yds., beyond that.., useless !

 

[benEzra]

If we look at the facts TX hasn't had OC for 140 years. Then some activists started up and now it's imminent. But at the same time OC activists are jeopardizing OC? OK, that makes sense.

*Smart* activism got CCW passed in Texas in the 1990s, then started working on OC and had it in the bag until the Open Carry Tarrant County idiots came within a hair's breadth of killing the bill. Even *Open Carry Texas* said that OCTC's attention-seeking, in-your-face tactics in neutral businesses were stupid and counterproductive to the movement. Had wiser heads not finally gotten these idiots to STOP, Texas OC would likely not have passed, and we probably would have lost OC and CC in even more nationwide chains than we did.

Imagine how well armed you'd be with a PLR-16 with stabilizing sling, red dot sight, and several 30 round mags loaded with M855 penetrator rounds during say and active shooter scenario. Think of it as an FN Five SeveN pistol on steroids!!

Since a PLR-16 outfitted as you describe would be to big to be an everyday carry gun, realistically you're talking about retrieving it from a place of off-body storage in response to an active-shooter event. In that scenario, having a 16" carbine with a shoulder stock would be a more effective choice, IMO.

Also, M855 would be a less than ideal choice of defensive load regardless of barrel length. M855 has less penetration against armor than 55gr FMJ, and inferior terminal performance compared to civilian 55gr JHP/SP. The only thing M855 does better than 55gr is retain its velocity better at 600 yards (M855 will penetrate at 600 what 55gr will penetrate at 500).

 

[Malamute]

In general, AR pistols dont do much for me. I'm allergic to muzzle blast in general, and shorter barrels in 5.56/223 arent hearing damaged friendly. I had developed somewhat of an interest in single shot long range pistols, the XP100 in particular. I then realized an AR pistol could be made about as accurate, at least for the general fun shooting and plinking I'd want to do with it. For fun shooting, I can deal with ear protection. If for so-called "serious" use, I think I may prefer to be shot than shoot a short barreled 223 without hearing protection. I dont even like 16" barrels if a 20" is possible. Still wouldnt shoot one without protection unless a life or death situation.

As for the open carry activists, some feel that the "in your face" type folks are the only ones being talked about when the term "open carry activists" comes up, or that they are the only ones that make any difference. They arent. Having been a former regular open carrier (it was the only choice to carry before concealed carry became possible), I have a very low opinion of them and their tactics, and their apparent lack of common sense and firearm knowledge, judging from some of the guns they carry and the way they carry them.

 

[ejfalvo]

I couldn't understand the utility until I shot one at a local range event. It was a blast to shoot, maneuverable through the drills, accurate. I had a Sig P220 as HD, it has now been replaced by a Sig PM400. Obviously, more rounds, short enough to maneuver through the house, easier for my wife to shoot. I also have a Sig 556 but that is the SHTF gun.

Did I need the PM400, nope, but I wanted it and it filled in quite nicely as a HD firearm.

 

[jimherb]

masochism.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If we look at the facts TX hasn't had OC for 140 years. Then some activists started up and now it's imminent. But at the same time OC activists are jeopardizing OC? OK, that makes sense.

IF open carry goes through this session (and that isn't a done deal), it will be six years of effort and the efforts of TSRA and NRA to shepherd it through the legislative process that do it. The activists you are speaking of had a totally different bill they supported which did not get a vote or even a hearing in Committee. In fact, during the HB910 debate, when the sponsor of OCT's preferred bill tried to offer it as an amendment he got dressed down on the House floor and told the behavior of open carry activists was one of several reasons he wasn't going to get a vote.

In addition, Rep. Poncho Nevarez claimed that their antics had changed his mind on guns and he now supports more gun control. I'm skeptical that Poncho ever had any love for the Second Amendment; but he certainly appeared to be negatively affected by having OCTC show up at his office and threaten him.

Overall, I'd say that much like gay rights, open carry is advancing in spite of those in-your-face tactics rather than because of them.

As for AR pistols, there is a niche for them as defensive tools as opposed to fun range toys. A red dot and sling or stabilizing brace make them much more practical in that niche. Honestly though - a Tavor with 16" barrel is the same size as a 9" barreled AR pistol and a bit more practical in many ways.

 

[rust collector]

I agree with OP that AR pistols probably aren't practical for most of us. Their apparent popularity indicates that folks are having fun with them, however and I think we're fine with that.

Until a couple years ago, I never had any desire to own a Kalashnikov design. All of a sudden one with a 10.5 inch barrel showed up and it's been a blast literally and figuratively. It's just a hoot to customize and to shoot. It exists only to put a big old smile on my face.

Maybe some things can't be explained or are better left unexplained.

 

[justice06rr]

do not know how to answer your Q. but.., i had one of the "original" AR pistols because it was "cool", sold it because it had too many malfunctions and was accurate to 20 yds., beyond that.., useless !

I'm curious what type/specs it had, and why you can't shoot it past 20yards...

 

[Tirod]

Interesting that in the thread on .300BO there was a quote on the effective max range of the round out to 440m from an 8" barrel. Yet when we discuss 5.56 from a 10.5" we get statements similar to the above, "useless beyond xx."

Nope.

The absence of a stock doesn't make it so, just the absence of skill shooting it. Nobody is inherently a champion three gunner the first time they pick up a .45 ACP, same with an AR pistol. It takes a different stance to stabilize both sights when there is no stock to do it at the shoulder. 1911's don't have a stock either, yet plenty shoot them well.

What we have are negatively expressed conclusions based on what it is, not what it can do, because the shooter has a negative perspective toward the firearm which isn't based on any long term experience with it. If someone goes in thinking it's a piece of trash and doesn't immediately excel with it, why, it's ALWAYS the gun, not the shooter, right?

Nobody takes responsibility for their lack of skill.

And on any sunny Sunday you see the exact same thing at a drag strip, the experienced drivers can get another .5 second out of car that the new owner can't get lucky enough to see.

Skill is not inherently imparted by simply owning something. There are thousands of M4geries and MK18 clone owners out their, but the harsh reality is most don't have any higher training or even compete regularly to show what they can do with one. It's the same with owners of new carbines showing up at weekend courses - the universal comment from instructors is that the accessories have to come off or get broken, and then the gun is tested to it's functional limit shooting over 1,000 rounds during the weekend. The guns fail all too often. The student does repeated - but that is exactly why they are there, to learn where and how they will fail and how to not fail.

Regardless of that weekend tho, they are not trained well enough to prevent future failure. Special unit members have to train repeatedly their entire career to maintain the ability to NOT fail. They work at being good enough they can't ever fail - not just good enough they didn't this time on one range weekend.

This is why the shooters who tried an AR pistol once and didn't get any satisfactory results aren't an important indicator of how YOU will do with one - if you take some time to learn why it's different and how to exploit it's strengths. Instead of complaining about it's obvious "weaknesses."

WEAR GOOD HEARING PROTECTION, THEY ARE LOUD.
LEARN HOW TO SHOOT IT WELL, THEY ARE MORE DIFFICULT.

Take some time with them and you get good results, come in with an attitude and you are only confirming what you think. Very few approach something they already have a bad attitude about to prove themselves wrong.

 

[sappyg]

Another excellent post by Tirod.

An AR pistol probably isn't for everyone. But it is a very good option all the same. We all like options though we all know everything comes with a compromise.

I can't make hits with one like I can with a carbine. Big deal. I can't make hits with a glock like I can with an AR pistol either. I've only got 500 rounds through a cut down 10.5 Amalite upper and 100 through a 10.5" PSA upper. Not one failure to speak of and most of which was with steel cased ammo. The recoil is in your hands a not your shoulder. You just have to find a way to deal with it if it matters to you.

A good solid, non A2 pistol grip, helps a lot. Mine is some kind of palm swell Ergo something or other. I like those Magpul forearms too. They have a nice hand stop that helps control the gun. Opposed to a carbine, hits are easier when You push the barrel toward the target with your forearm than to pull the gun into your shoulder.

 

[Malamute]

A good solid, non A2 pistol grip, helps a lot.

I'm curious about the non A2 grip. Why is that a consideration?

I know many dont. but I like the A2 grip in rifles. There may be other things I havent used that I'd like more, but I've not had any real complaints about them.

Another question to whoever,... Has anyone shot their AR pistols much like a pistol? Meaning two hands on the grip, not like a carbine without a stock. My interest is for shooting distance with precision, and probably a pistol scope. I've shot full size AR and AK's like a pistol just goofing around, they are pretty heavy and awkward, needless to say. An AR pistol may not be any more so than an XP, though I havent handled an XP in ages, and havent handled an AR pistol any.

 

[sappyg]

@ malamute,

The A2 grip is too small and too canted for me to get a good purchase on the grip and still manage the trigger. The angle is too steep. A2 grips will do but it doesn't help control the gun like a more upright grip will IMO. Think 1911. The recoil is in your hands, not your shoulder.

Havent tried a traditional 2 handed pistol grip personally. The sig brace might work better for this. IDK but prairie dogs would be an Endangers species well past 200 yards