I've been hearing various reports on this. I've heard sub-moa, but then again I've heard >3". So for those who have one, how good can it shoot? I know I can't shoot sub-moa with iron sights, but i still want something that will show my progress as I get better, and that I can use for nra matches some time down the road. Can it shoot at 1,000yrds?
How accurate is Loaded Std M1A?
- Thread starter Dmack_901
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There's no bedding or unitized gas system on a loaded standard so it's probably not sub-MOA. I have a custom build that is similar in specs but with a unitized gas system and GI barrel, and it shoots 1.5-2.5 MOA. I don't know much about 1000 yard shooting; I'll leave that to someone else.
Swampy
Member
Dmack,
First off, let me correct a misconception you have.....
It is VERY possible to shoot sub-MOA with iron sights. As long as the RIFLE is capable of sub-MOA, and the SHOOTER is also skilled in iron sights, then there is no reason whatever that he can't shoot the rifle to the top of it's ability. This is very evident by the scores seen at any Highpower event you care to attend.
Re the Loaded M1-A. I bought one several years back (pre-Y2K). With Port surplus it'll do 2 to 2.5 MOA. Using good handloads with 168 SMK it'll shoot 1.0-1-1/4 MOA, sometimes a bit better if I do my part.... and YES, this is with irons.
Best regards,
Swampy
Garands forever
First off, let me correct a misconception you have.....
It is VERY possible to shoot sub-MOA with iron sights. As long as the RIFLE is capable of sub-MOA, and the SHOOTER is also skilled in iron sights, then there is no reason whatever that he can't shoot the rifle to the top of it's ability. This is very evident by the scores seen at any Highpower event you care to attend.
Re the Loaded M1-A. I bought one several years back (pre-Y2K). With Port surplus it'll do 2 to 2.5 MOA. Using good handloads with 168 SMK it'll shoot 1.0-1-1/4 MOA, sometimes a bit better if I do my part.... and YES, this is with irons.
Best regards,
Swampy
Garands forever
45/70 GOVT.
Member
I just got a Loaded M1A in December. I've only shot it once 60 rounds of mil surplus. At 50 yds I shot gruops that ranged from 1" to 1.5".
At 100 yds. I have a six shot group. It might have been 3 to shot groups
One at 1/2", 1", 1.5" If this was a 6 shot group it is 3". but I don't think I was
This trip to the range was to sight this rifle in, so I might have shot 2shot groups.
Shooting conditions on this day weren't the best It was cold, gusty wind, and the sun was setting and shining right in my eyes.
I think they will shoot 1 to 1.5 with good ammo and pratice with the iron sights
I had a friend back in the '80s that had a standard with a match bbl I don't know if it had any of the other things the loaded rifle comes with.
He had a Springfield (made by Redfield) scope 3-9 with a range finder. This Rifle with the Scope would would shoot 1" at 100 no problem This was with handloads.
If it will do that with a scope it will do it without the scope. The variable here is the operator.
I have a hard time seeing 8.5X11 target at 100
At 100 yds. I have a six shot group. It might have been 3 to shot groups
One at 1/2", 1", 1.5" If this was a 6 shot group it is 3". but I don't think I was
This trip to the range was to sight this rifle in, so I might have shot 2shot groups.
Shooting conditions on this day weren't the best It was cold, gusty wind, and the sun was setting and shining right in my eyes.
I think they will shoot 1 to 1.5 with good ammo and pratice with the iron sights
I had a friend back in the '80s that had a standard with a match bbl I don't know if it had any of the other things the loaded rifle comes with.
He had a Springfield (made by Redfield) scope 3-9 with a range finder. This Rifle with the Scope would would shoot 1" at 100 no problem This was with handloads.
If it will do that with a scope it will do it without the scope. The variable here is the operator.
I have a hard time seeing 8.5X11 target at 100
ocabj
Member
With match ammunition, I'd expect 1.5-2MOA.
ocabj
Member
Well, if you want something for NRA service rifle matches, you're better off with an AR-15. It's inexpensive and more accurate than the M14.
iamkris
Member
Depends on what you mean by "perfect". It shoots what a battle rifle should shoot ... and a bit more. She ain't no prima donna with 0.5 MOA groups but then again, those rifles couldn't go through what a battle rifle like a M14 or FAL can.
saltydog
Member
My Std. grade M1A manufactured from Springfield Armory in the late 80's and Leatherwood ARTII scope will shoot 1.5" at 100 yards all day with Portugese ammo. Will also shoot .75"-1.25" with 168 grain Federal Match. Not bad for a utility grade rifle.
jobu07
Contributing Member
I think the right answer is that it is as acurrate as the person shooting it will allow it to be.
spartacus2002
Member
Unless you are an incredible natural shot or have sent lotsa rounds downrange in practice, you probably cannot shoot 1MOA with any rifle -- yet.
A Loaded is a good starting point. You get the match barrel, match trigger, and match front sight. Next is unitizing your gas system and installing a match recoil spring guide -- total cost less than $80. If you want to get really high speed, add a match rear sight aperture and have the rifle bedded.
A Loaded is a good starting point. You get the match barrel, match trigger, and match front sight. Next is unitizing your gas system and installing a match recoil spring guide -- total cost less than $80. If you want to get really high speed, add a match rear sight aperture and have the rifle bedded.
artherd
member
I can't shoot Irons worth a crap, we're talking BAD here. 5-9MOA.
But with a scope prone I can hold 1/4MOA.
The "Loaded" isn't an M14 either. It's the same thing as an AR-10 vs AR-10T. The latter is a match gun and has a tighter chamber that will jam if you get dirt in there. Period.
It's still a good gun, and the M1/14 op system holds up today (if you take the care to know it and clean/use it.)
M14-type guns can be sub-MOA shooters, if you do a lot of work to 'em. It will likely be 1-1.5MOA out of the box.
But with a scope prone I can hold 1/4MOA.
The "Loaded" isn't an M14 either. It's the same thing as an AR-10 vs AR-10T. The latter is a match gun and has a tighter chamber that will jam if you get dirt in there. Period.
It's still a good gun, and the M1/14 op system holds up today (if you take the care to know it and clean/use it.)
M14-type guns can be sub-MOA shooters, if you do a lot of work to 'em. It will likely be 1-1.5MOA out of the box.
jlwatts3
Member
Sorry for the newb question but, what is "unitizing" your gas system"? Thanks for tolerating my presence.
As issued, the M14 gas cylinder and front band are separate components. The front band is not solidly attached to anything, so it is free to flop back and forth and side-to-side. This means the barrel harmonics may vary between shots, depending on how the parts settle. Unitizing the gas system means attaching the front band and gas cylinder together by welding or by drilling and screws.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Too bad Dmack_901 isn't around anymore. Maybe he will pop in for a look. I agree with a fellow poster, it is much more cost efficient and learning efficient to start with an AR-15 for matches. You will save thousands of dollars and you will learn to shoot well much faster.
AZ Jeff
Member
US military acceptance standards for the M14, when it was in production, was that it shoot 3MOA with M80 ball ammo.
That said, MOST M1A's (the civilian version of the M14) will shoot 2-3MOA with ball ammo.
It's RARE to find an as-issued rifle that will do 1MOA with ball ammo. That's not to say that it's impossible, it's just that it's not COMMON.
Once an M1A is "accurized" using the AMU recommended methods, it can perform at 1MOA or better, especially if fed match grade ammo.
Steve Smith is correct, though, in that the "black rifle" can perform MUCH better out of the box than an M1A or M14.
That said, MOST M1A's (the civilian version of the M14) will shoot 2-3MOA with ball ammo.
It's RARE to find an as-issued rifle that will do 1MOA with ball ammo. That's not to say that it's impossible, it's just that it's not COMMON.
Once an M1A is "accurized" using the AMU recommended methods, it can perform at 1MOA or better, especially if fed match grade ammo.
Steve Smith is correct, though, in that the "black rifle" can perform MUCH better out of the box than an M1A or M14.
I'm here, allways have been. Anyway, I already looked at the ar15, and I agree that it is probably a better choice for a match rifle, but I'm definatly not serious about rifle matches and I'm looking for something more versitile. I want something that I "could" hunt with, and would use the same ammo and my m700. I also thought it would be a good SHTF gun. Since that stuff mainly what I'm looking for, I think the M1A or suits my needs; reliable, sturdy, .308, and accurate enough to beat my dad in our own little matches. Thanks for your expertise everyone.
BTW, Is Ozarkguns.com a good company to deal with, their $1329 for a Synthetic Loaded looks reasonable.
saltydog
Member
I have both .223 and .308 and it depends on if you are hunting "meat" or "paper" at 600+ yards.
iamkris
Member
Here's a question about a loaded vs a standard model M1A barrels --
How "delicate" is the NM air-gauged barrel. In other words, is this barrel a prima donna that is only to be used for NRA slow fire / rapid fire (which really isn't all that rapid) or can you use it to "plink" where you may truely have a rapid fire string.
The reason I ask is that I have a buddy who has shot at Camp Perry with the Army Reserve and has a high end M14 built by Fulton Armory. He refuses to shoot it "rattle battle" style because he doesn't want to affect the barrel adversely...can't blame him knowing roughly what he paid for it.
Having never owned a "match grade rifle", is the loaded barrel similarly "delicate" or is my friend being overly protective?
How "delicate" is the NM air-gauged barrel. In other words, is this barrel a prima donna that is only to be used for NRA slow fire / rapid fire (which really isn't all that rapid) or can you use it to "plink" where you may truely have a rapid fire string.
The reason I ask is that I have a buddy who has shot at Camp Perry with the Army Reserve and has a high end M14 built by Fulton Armory. He refuses to shoot it "rattle battle" style because he doesn't want to affect the barrel adversely...can't blame him knowing roughly what he paid for it.
Having never owned a "match grade rifle", is the loaded barrel similarly "delicate" or is my friend being overly protective?
AZ Jeff
Member
Here is my thoughts on barrel life and rapid fire, FWIW:
EVERY SHOT run through a barrel moves it that much closer to the end of it's useful life. Doing rapid fire does not move it that much faster than doing slow fire, as 100 rounds through the barrel is 100 rounds of wear.
The added heat of rapid fire plays VERY little into overall wear compared to the general wear that the hot gases provide in total. After all, one can only put 20-30 rounds through the barrel before there is a pause, at least to change magaziines.
In a nutshell, firining rapid fire (rattle battle, etc) through a barrel probably accelerate wear by any more than 10% over what slow fire would do.
EVERY SHOT run through a barrel moves it that much closer to the end of it's useful life. Doing rapid fire does not move it that much faster than doing slow fire, as 100 rounds through the barrel is 100 rounds of wear.
The added heat of rapid fire plays VERY little into overall wear compared to the general wear that the hot gases provide in total. After all, one can only put 20-30 rounds through the barrel before there is a pause, at least to change magaziines.
In a nutshell, firining rapid fire (rattle battle, etc) through a barrel probably accelerate wear by any more than 10% over what slow fire would do.
kaferhaus
Member
My experience has been the exact opposite. Once the area just ahead of the chamber gets "hot" thoart wear accelerates exponentially. Very very quick.
I've seen Chrome bore ARs throats wiped out in as little as 300rds when fired non stop on semi auto. The Army has burst them in as little as 750rds on full auto.
Once the barrel gets hot enough that it's uncomfortable resting your hand on it, (near the breech, not the muzzle) it needs to be allowed to cool before shooting it any further.
Your money.
AZ Jeff
Member
I don't doubt that continuous full auto will destroy a throat. After all, 750 rounds on full auto equates to about 1 minute of continuous firing.
Practically speaking, it's pretty hard for us to sustain that rate of fire. (I don't own enough magazines to keep firing continuously for 1 full minute or more!)
I would guess a couple of full magazines at rapid fire would not result in major damage to the throat.
Practically speaking, it's pretty hard for us to sustain that rate of fire. (I don't own enough magazines to keep firing continuously for 1 full minute or more!)
I would guess a couple of full magazines at rapid fire would not result in major damage to the throat.
iamkris
Member
Good info guys, thanks...any other real world examples of barrel life (especially effects on a "match" barrel) with rapid fire?
ocabj
Member
Define "rapid fire".
In service rifle competitions, rapid fire strings are usually defined by 10 rounds fired in 60-70 seconds. 10 rounds a minute will get that barrel hot, but not enough to cause severe barrel wear.
If you plan on emptying three 20 round M14 mags in under 45 seconds, then yes, I'm pretty sure that will cause some extraneous bore wear. How much? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to do that unless I'm in a combat situation.
In service rifle competitions, rapid fire strings are usually defined by 10 rounds fired in 60-70 seconds. 10 rounds a minute will get that barrel hot, but not enough to cause severe barrel wear.
If you plan on emptying three 20 round M14 mags in under 45 seconds, then yes, I'm pretty sure that will cause some extraneous bore wear. How much? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to do that unless I'm in a combat situation.
30Cal
Member
I view the occasional rattle battle and the rapid fire stages as normal wear and tear. If you plan on shooting pretty regularly, then barrels are a somewhat consumable commodity.
Ty
Ty
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