How do you tell a LEO that you are armed at a traffic stop

[Ledgehammer]

Just because you have a permit doesn't mean you carry 24/7. I know I don't.

I also don't view myself as any officers back up. I won't be sitting on trash can lids or anything like that. If we're pinned down together or I see him being brutally assaulted that's a different story. Otherwise I just remain a good witness.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Running a carry permit would tell me if it was valid or not and which fire arm they were said they would carry on the app. Washington State is a shall issue state. Each person is given a back ground check and the gun crime rate for permit holders is like .01%. So when you told me you were carrying and had a permit, you just told me you were the salt of the earth.

That's interesting, since there is no place on the Washington State CPL application to record ANY firearms information. The information you were given regarding firearms was the Department of Licensing's records of what handguns that individual purchased from Washington FFLs, which is completely useless information because I could be carrying a handgun I purchased in a private sale....and I might have sold the handguns in the DOL database in a private sale. If a LEO does not understand that in the field, they can get needlessly twitchy when they run the serial number of a gun and the Department of Licensing comes back with another owner's name unrelated to the person possessing that gun.

The Washington State Department of Licensing database of handgun purchases from Washington FFLs is a complete waste of public money and resources.

What I am afraid of is a situation where safety is compromised by an officer insisting he disarm me and clear my weapon while not necessarily being familiar with my particular firearm. I fear an accidental discharge from such overzealous behavior far more than I fear the cop whipping out his own gun ans shooting me because he takes notice of the fact I am armed.

NEGLIGENT discharge, not accidental, in my humble opinion. If a properly functioning handgun discharges during unloading, there is only one reason for that, the trigger was pulled fully to the rear by the operator with a round in the chamber.

 

[Deanimator]

Just to be clear: My purpose in disclosing is to protect *my life*, not his.

Are you saying that you're afraid that a cop will unlawfully MURDER you because you fail to do something NOT required by law?

What does that say about the police in your area?

Nothing good, from my perspective.

 

[Deanimator]

Don't interrupt the officer.

In Ohio you'd BETTER "interrupt the officer" if that's what it takes to notify. Otherwise you may be charged with "failure to notify".

Harless' Greatest Hits

Until the notification requirement in Ohio is repealed, I'll shout over a cop to notify if I have to.

PLEASE arrest me for obeying black letter law. Even better, tase or pepper spray me. You'll be recorded (and or streamed to the internet) while you do it.

 

[Deanimator]

Please cite the Ohio law that requires one to announce verbally or admit that you are making things up. For a guy who claims to follow the letter of the law, you sure seen to be asking others to comply with your ill-informed opinion of it.

Current consensus in OFCC is that VERBAL notification is required.

Feel free to come here and put it to the test.

I suggest Canton.

 

[Deanimator]

My advice: Obey the law, be courteous, forthright, and compliant. There is nothing wrong with informing, even when you don't have to, and I think it is a good idea to do so.

You're not advising people to be "compliant".

You're advising them to be servile.

I advise people to obey the law. If the law does NOT require notification, notifying is simply an act of ritualistic submission.

You're perfectly free to tug at your forelock and debase yourself to strangers.

I'm free NOT to, and the LAW is on my side.

And I couldn't care less who likes it or not, cops included.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

I think this thread has run its course

 

[HOWARD J]

In MI you must inform the LEO
Blow .02 or better kiss your CPL bye bye

 

[MyGreenGuns]

The first time I was pulled over after obtaining my CPL, I notified the officer out of "respect". He stepped back and pulled his gun the first 1/2" from his holster and ordered me to place it on the dash.

I calmly looked him in the eye and then looked at his gun and said "I believe it would be safer if we both left our weapons alone."

That has stuck with me. Ive never volunteered that info since (not required here, unless asked).

He was probably just a nervous rookie. But he ruined it for those LEO that like to be told that info. (I know his actions are not typical and/or representative of MOST officers.)

[EDIT] I know Ill get flak for this but if I had been gunned down by a nervous LEO,, Im sure his report wouldnt read that he got freaked and started shooting. It would say I went for a weapon and he did his job. (thats in regards to the earlier post where someone said "Ive heard stories..." and was challenged with "show proof". History is written by the survivors.)

 

[Davek1977]

In today's world, with dashcams and recording devices part of nearly every cop car's equipment, what happens, for better or worse, is quite plainly clear in many cases. If you aren't familliar with the Officer Harless case from Ohio, I suggest reading up on it. His asinine behavior was caught on dashcams....repeatedly (though he was known to shut them off on occasion as well)...The report can say whatever the officer says happened, but if the tape doesn't back it up, theres going to be issues. I don't doubt there are overzealous cops out there that act foolish on occasion. I also don't believe that any rational, reasonable human being would open fire at the first mention of being armed. An outright assassination of a law-abiding citizen is going to be hard for any department to cover up, and few departments would ever want an officer who would be such a liability on their police force

 

[Kyle M.]

Here you go

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you...oncealed-carry-gun-owner-during-traffic-stop/

 

[Deanimator]

In today's world, with dashcams and recording devices part of nearly every cop car's equipment, what happens, for better or worse, is quite plainly clear in many cases. If you aren't familliar with the Officer Harless case from Ohio, I suggest reading up on it. His asinine behavior was caught on dashcams....repeatedly (though he was known to shut them off on occasion as well).

But as you above state, they can... and DO turn off dashcams.

That's why it's VITALLY important to:

1. Stick to the letter of the law.
2. Do not engage with the cop beyond what's required by law.
3. ALWAYS use a recording device where lawful to do so.

Ohio is a one party consent state for recording. I NEVER leave the house armed without having a voice recorder of some sort running. A cop who would violate your rights... and the LAW, won't hesistate to lie about it after the fact... and they almost invariably do. That's what criminals do.

 

[Kyle M.]

But as you above state, they can... and DO turn off dashcams.

That's why it's VITALLY important to:

1. Stick to the letter of the law.
2. Do not engage with the cop beyond what's required by law.
3. ALWAYS use a recording device where lawful to do so.

Ohio is a one party consent state for recording. I NEVER leave the house armed without having a voice recorder of some sort running. A cop who would violate your rights... and the LAW, won't hesistate to lie about it after the fact... and they almost invariably do. That's what criminals do.

Those dash cams should be set up so the officer does not have the ability to shut them off, or if he does it immediately notifies his superiors. Unfortunately they don't, and as the above case states following the law and informing the officer doesn't always work.

 

[Jaxondog]

They should know when they run your plate.

 

[postalnut25]

^^^^^^
Running a plate does not tell me you are armed. NCIC does not return that info. I have to ask you on a stop if you are armed. Also, I assume everybody is armed, that is why I have a preference to do traffic stops in a way I feel is safe.

 

[Deanimator]

Running a plate does not tell me you are armed. NCIC does not return that info. I have to ask you on a stop if you are armed. Also, I assume everybody is armed, that is why I have a preference to do traffic stops in a way I feel is safe.

Hence the instances here of cops demanding that you notify them when you AREN'T armed, something CLEARLY not required by law. My answer in a word, "NO". The last cop to try to demand that of me backed down when I knew the law and refused to cater to random whim.

It only proves the innate foolishness of notification laws in general.

They're nothing but ritual shows of submission by citizens and invitations to dangerous lapses in situational awareness by cops.

 

[HOWARD J]

The last time I was pulled over in MI the LEO knew that I had a CPL.
I was driving wife to work at 6AM & did not have gun
"" where is gun"" I told her I don't have it on me so I didn't mention it.
She said OK--no problem

BTW--she let me go with warning

 

[NavyLCDR]

The first time I was pulled over after obtaining my CPL, I notified the officer out of "respect". He stepped back and pulled his gun the first 1/2" from his holster and ordered me to place it on the dash.

I calmly looked him in the eye and then looked at his gun and said "I believe it would be safer if we both left our weapons alone."

That has stuck with me. Ive never volunteered that info since (not required here, unless asked).

He was probably just a nervous rookie. But he ruined it for those LEO that like to be told that info. (I know his actions are not typical and/or representative of MOST officers.)

And this is exactly what I find so weird. We carry a gun to defend ourselves from a stranger who is going to commit a violent act against us. 99.9% of the strangers we encounter every day don't commit a violent act against us. But we carry a gun in case we encounter one of the .1% that will.

One of the reasons many people choose to conceal, vice open carry when available, is that they don't like the reaction that strangers might have at the sight of their gun.

Yet, when the stranger approaching them happens to be wearing a uniform and badge...everything changes. To me, that person wearing the uniform and badge is still a stranger. I have know idea how they are going to react in regards to my firearm, whether I tell them about it or not. If a valid reason for concealing my gun is to avoid reactions from strangers, than that reason remains valid regardless of what uniform or job that stranger is in (within the bounds of law, obviously). So it stands to reason to me that it just best if they don't know about my gun. I don't show my CPL and tell about my gun to every other stranger, it doesn't matter what clothes they are wearing.

During a traffic stop, it is that stranger's job to write me a ticket for the infraction and otherwise leave me alone. That's all. So I can't understand why I should change my behavior or feelings towards this particular stranger standing in front of me, than any other stranger I would happen to meet. Unless the law requires me to, of course.

 

[hermannr]

Hermanner wrote:

You missed the point I was making. When someone told me they were carrying, I still did my job. But you see I viewed the permit holders as my back up since real back up could be 30 miles away. I was hoping if I was getting wopped a law abiding citizen would help out. And yes there were a couple of times I was helped out and an arrest was effected. And no not because I was getting beat up but sometimes folks would point me in the right direction. One guy even sat on the lids on a dumpster a bad guy was hiding in until I got there after chasing that guy around. LOL.

For those who don't know.. Giving radio a plate number would not alert to a carry permit. If the owner of the vehicle had a warrant they would let us know. Most of the time I was back in the car getting ready to run the driver’s license before radio would ask if I was clear for traffic to get me that information. Running a carry permit would tell me if it was valid or not and which fire arm they were said they would carry on the app. Washington State is a shall issue state. Each person is given a back ground check and the gun crime rate for permit holders is like .01%. So when you told me you were carrying and had a permit, you just told me you were the salt of the earth.

P-32. When you run my DL you will see my CPL...that is all you need to know. I have a CPL, I do not have any outstanding problems with the police (never have had any problems that would ever get me to set foot in a court..OK? and I am of the SS crowd.)

There is absolutely no reason to insert my CPL into a traffic stop. There is absolutely no reason to expect any special treatment (good or bad) because I have a CPL...that status may tell you I won't give you any problems, but other than that...it should mean not 1 thing.

As for what I might be carrying? No relation. Most of my weapons were purchased before 1968, inherited, and given to me as gifts. I think I only have 3 pistols that I purchsed since 1968, here in WA through a FFL, and 2 of those are C&R...so that leaves you thinking I have one possible weapon I may be carrying, when in fact I have many others.

Granted, that one just happens to be the one I carry most becasue who wants to need to defendthemselves with a valuable collector's item...eh? It might not come back as pristine as when it was siezed. (which I disagree with the siezing part...so I have need to use my weapon properly in SD, and now you are going to disarm me so I cannot protect myself anymore??? Ya, I know evidence, but there are other ways to handle that in a SD situation...not everyone has a collection to fall back on you know)

 

[Doc3402]

When you run my DL you will see my CPL...that is all you need to know. I have a CPL, I do not have any outstanding problems with the police (never have had any problems that would ever get me to set foot in a court..OK? and I am of the SS crowd.)

hermannr,

That is not true in most locations with mine being one of them.

There is absolutely no reason to insert my CPL into a traffic stop. There is absolutely no reason to expect any special treatment (good or bad) because I have a CPL...that status may tell you I won't give you any problems, but other than that...it should mean not 1 thing.

I disagree. In my opinion there is reason to insert that info into a traffic stop. Immediately the officer knows that you are not a habitual criminal, drunk, or drug abuser. You don't make a habit of beating the snot out of your loved ones, and as far as the world can see, you are not mentally ill. In other words, your ability to even qualify for that carry permit tells the officer that you are a law abiding citizen. Knowing this may help him/her knock down the anxiety level a notch or two, and that is officially a good thing for you.

By the same token, how you tell the officer you are armed makes a huge difference, too. Doing your best Jack Nicholson imitation while stating, "I have a gun." is not the way to do it. A simple, "Officer, I have a concealed carry permit, and right now I have a firearm on my <state location>. What would you like me to do?" will work wonders. Always state that you have a permit before you admit to the concealed weapon.

The absolute last thing you want to happen is for the officer to find out you are carrying a concealed weapon that you didn't tell him about. At that point they tend to get a lot less polite than they could have been, permit or not.

During any dealings with the police there is one thing to remember. Their attitude feeds off of yours. If you don't respect the uniform you will not have as easy a time with it as you could have. Nobody says you have to respect the individual officer, but you need to show the uniform and what it stands for the respect it deserves.

 

[Deanimator]

During any dealings with the police there is one thing to remember. Their attitude feeds off of yours. If you don't respect the uniform you will not have as easy a time with it as you could have. Nobody says you have to respect the individual officer, but you need to show the uniform and what it stands for the respect it deserves.

Do they have to reciprocate?

Why so often don't they?

What should happen when they don't?

 

[ultramag44]

Doc3402 said it right!

LEO's are just as human as everyone else. They get tired, annoyed, constipated and have kid/ spouse issues. They are not mechanical extensions of civil authority.

They also have successes and great joy in thier lives.

You can't predict how they are feeling when they stop you.

Just as they can't predict how you are feeling that day. Maybe you got that big promotion @ work and are happy. Maybe you just found out your kid just flunked all thier classes because they are ditching school, your spouse says it all your fault and you are upset.

They are trained to ignore irate, smart mouth citizens and roadside Matlocks.

Just as you don't like your kids lying to you, they don't like it when they ask if you know why you're being stopped and you KNOW how fast you were going and lie.

I have been stopped once by DPS since getting my CCW. I produced it, my DL and retired Army ID. I told the officer I was not carrying, but had ammo in the back of my SUV.

He asked if I knew why I was being stopped. I admitted to going 15 milies over the limit. He thanked me saying, "I appreicate your good attitude, just slow it down, have a good day sir."

No ticket, no problem.

Now in Texas, we call that common politeness and honesty. Others, in other locals may call it being subservient. Maybe it's how you view life.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I am expected to be a polite, composed, responsible, law abiding citizen. Why is it too much to expect the police officer to be professional on their jobs, and remain within the lawful bounds of their authority? I don't feel the need to cater to the police officer and walk on egg shells around them in case they might be having a bad day.

I will be polite, respectful, and offer to them ONLY what I am required to offer to them by law during an official encounter. I expect the same from them. During an official encounter where they are performing their official duties that they are getting paid to do, I don't care what their kid's grades are in school, just like they wouldn't care if I was going 60 mph in a school zone because my wife and I just had a fight.

This is just plain getting ridiculous....and I hope the thread gets closed soon before it degrades any further.

 

[Doc3402]

Do they have to reciprocate? No, they don't. Will they reciprocate? Most will to the limits they can while still maintaining control of the situation.

From reading some of your earlier posts I would guess that you have had some unpleasant experiences with law enforcement. If this is true, you will probably carry that experience over to your next meeting with them. Trust me, if you do your experiences won't get any better.

What should happen when they don't? That depends on what you are talking about. If you expect them to bend over and kiss your butt because you're nice to them, forget it. You should expect the same level of courtesy you give them, but no more. If you're talking about a criminal act I think they should answer to the law the same as everyone else.

 

[Deanimator]

They are trained to ignore irate, smart mouth citizens and roadside Matlocks.

I don't know if they're "trained" to do so, but an awful lot of them seem to ignore the law, be it on notification, means of carry or a variety of other firearms related matters. The idea is apparently that the citizens will "ignore" THAT.

No sale.