Hydraulic recoil spring?

[1911Tuner]

Now then...silicosys4...I'd never make a flat statement that would put anyone's expensive gun at risk unless I had the real world experience and observations to base it on. As I said...the gun just ain't that fragile, and truthfully...the slide doesn't hit the frame all that hard.

And in addition to what I've described above...I've had my hands in a whole buncha other people's 1911s...old USGI and modern versions. I'd hesitate to even estimate how many...and I've never even seen a Colt LW Commander with hard use show up with a frame abutment beaten up. Worn out rails, yes. Frame abutment? Nope. Never. Personally, I've used 16-pound springs in all my Commanders...LW and steel-framed. Never had a problem.

I know that it's unlikely that any of this will sway you.

 

[JWH321]

I'd like to have one for my Shield -- anything would be an improvement.

 

[1911Tuner]

Here's the thing that I've learned. With any mass produced item, nearly anything can happen occasionally.

In 1974, a friend of mine and I decided to rebuild the engine in his girlfriend's '67 Chevelle that her father bought new and passed on to her. When we tore the 327 engine down, we found seven 4-inch/327 pistons and one 3.87-inch/283 piston.

Do we assume that this was a fluke...or do we assume that all
Chevy 327 engines were built with one 283 piston?

In 2002, a friend brought me one of the early 0991/NRM Colts with the lower barrel lug pulled off the barrel at the rear clean through to the chamber. The damage occurred within 5.000 rounds.

The problem was that the frame bed was machined out of spec, and the bottom of the barrel was hitting the bed at the same time that it hit the vertical impact surface. I see this occasionally...but not often.

Do we assume that this was a fluke...or do we assume that all Colt NRM barrels will lose their lower lugs within 5,000 rounds?

If a frame impact abutment is badly machined...say, at a small angle placing the rails slightly forward of the lower part of the abutment...you're going to get some peening on the rails, and depending on how severe the angle is...you'll always have problems with peening.

Do we assume that this is the result of improper machining...or do we assume that all 1911 frame rails will peen and deform from impact?

If 1911 frames were so susceptible to impact deformation, the gun forums would be saturated with pictures of damaged frames with thread captions that read:

"OMG! This is what happens when you don't change recoil springs every 2,000 rounds."

But we don't see that, do we? No. No, we don't. Instead, in order to "prove" that it's a problem, we have to search for a few obscure pictures. Flukes that occurred with frames that were machined badly.

silicosys...I'll provide one more "anecdote" for you to consider.

I have in my possession, a Colt LW Commander that...in addition to normal moderate use...I've fired a total of approximately 500 rounds of hardball-spec ammunition without a recoil spring in order to demonstrate to several doubters that the slide doesn't hit the frame hard enough to cause the dreaded frame destruction that the buffer and spring marketeers have convinced us of.

The impact abutment in that Commander frame shows no evidence of deformation.

 

[45_auto]

Nope. Not gonna let you turn this one into a circus. If you don't have anything to add or any evidence to prove or disprove the points, then please refrain from attempting to derail a technical discussion.

Your friendly neighborhood moderator.

 

[1911Tuner]

Now then...where were we?

Let's look at a little more evidence in this video. I'm not sure what the caliber is, but it was the subject of a discussion at PHA a few months ago. A guy present had a .45 caliber Glock, and he agreed to try it for the sake of science.

The slide didn't move. Then, I tried it. I was able to keep the slide from moving pretty easily...with one thumb.

If you can keep the slide frozen in place during the instant of peak acceleration/force backward with one thumb...

Honestly...how hard could the slide impact the frame after all force is removed and after compressing a spring for about 3 inches?

I've heard warnings of grievous frame damage by using a 14-pound spring for hardball...and reassured that all would be well with a 16-pound spring.

Think about that for a minute.

If the gun was so easily damaged with hardball and a 14-pound spring...would another two pounds of spring really make that much difference?

Here's the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8sbb8eDjg

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Nope. Not gonna let you turn this one into a circus. If you don't have anything to add or any evidence to prove or disprove the points, then please refrain from attempting to derail a technical discussion.

(oops. See message 33, below, too...)

45_auto: Thus far in this discussion, you've quoted Bill Wilson and Kuhnhausen -- brief quotes. Neither of those quotes are arguably EVIDENCE. Or, if you want to consider them evidence, I'd argue that they're not SUFFICIENT to put the point to rest.

Kuhnhausen is highly regarded, but the many experts on the various 1911 Forums, while admiring his work, point out that a number of his observations are wrong. Here's one set of observations from one of those forums. For example, his assertions

• ...that the 1911 slide doesn't move until the bullet has exited the barrel is easily proved wrong [with time-lapse photography].

• ...that if the barrel stops on the bed before the lower lug hits the frame the link is correct. This means the link is stopping the barrel and that shouldn't be. The lower lug hitting the VIS is what should stop it's rearward travel.

• The person citing these points, above, also notes that the sear hammer hook geometry is not correctly explained... He goes on to say, "These come to mind and there are more, however they [his two 1911 books] are still the best single reference".

If Kuhnhausen could be wrong about what stops the barrel, it's possible that he could possibly be wrong about what causes frame battering, too. (I have no evidence on either count... but am just coming to what some might consider a logical conclusion.)

Bill Wilson is a talented 1911 gunsmith, but his comments or instructions aren't evidence. And I think he's one of the few 1911 "experts" or custom gunsmiths who seems to be enthusiastic about shock buffers. Of course, he sells them.

1911Tuner doesn't always get every detail right but I've noticed that neither you nor anyone else seem to be offering evidence to refute the points he's making (or to support the claims you've made). I looked for the many GOOGLE photos of frame battering cited by another participant in this discussion and found almost nothing -- certainly not the high number of photos I was expecting. Is frame battering a real problem? I tried the other search engines, with similar results. One of them led back to discussions on THE FIRING LINE (in the SMITHY) area. No clear answers or conclusions to be found.

Back to the point in question: what is YOUR EVIDENCE for the presence or causes of frame damage in 1911 or other guns?

.

 

[1911Tuner]

I appreciate you concern about this discussions turning into a circus.

Walt...I wrote that after deleting his thread jack attempt. I hard deleted it before another mod saw it...as a favor...so there's no record.

Note the signature:

"Your friendly neighborhood moderator"


I'm not gonna let this one get jacked.

As for the question at hand...

I'll argue it and explain it until I die, because I've seen zero evidence of the risk of frame battering from not using heavy recoil springs and/or shock buffers...and in my own experience that spans more than 50 years...14 pounds has proven to be a gracious plenty.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Sorry. I misinterpreted WHO WROTE WHAT. (I thought he was making the equivalent of a "citizens arrest" by claiming psuedo moderator status.)

My point, however, was that everyone quotes the great sages, but few offer more than quotes.

Kuhnhausen was apparently a very competent technician, but he didn't always get all of the details right. Despite his few errors, his books are highly regarded. Bill Wilson is clearly a gifted gunsmith; while I've not owned (or wanted to own) a Wilson Combat 1911, friends have them, and they're nice, accurate, reliable guns... But Wilson is making a living, and promoting his products. (My last 1911 was a SIG GSR that YOU [1911Tuner] looked over at your home, stripping, examining, talking about materials, etc.)

I know a little about some guns, but not much about 1911s. I do try to understand how they work. I've looked high and low for clear evidence of frame battering in ANY GUN, and haven't found it. I'm sure it has happened. When I have seen evidence, it's generally due to something done wrong during manufacture.

I frequently run into this same sort of fiasco when discussing CZs and frame and slide-stop breakage. And claims about CZ Weak Springs. I've been a CZ fan for years (but they're not the only guns I shoot) -- and see a lot of claims made about these guns that simply aren't backed up by facts or, for that matter, any actual damage. It's almost always based on something someone told them, or they read on the web.

 

[45_auto]

Back to the point in question: what is YOUR EVIDENCE for the presence or causes of frame damage in 1911 or other guns?

My experience on this forum is that it's not worth expending much effort on posts. Certain mods can't handle much discussion that questions their beliefs. No big deal, it's their forum.

I'll do a couple of sentences and a few cut and paste's, but that's about it. Not my goal to prove that the earth isn't flat!

 

[Onward Allusion]

This got me thinking. Why have no handgun manufacturers it seems, used a combination hydraulic buffered spring assembly for the recoil spring. Obviously it would cost more, but to have an easier to rack slide seems like a benefit worthy of additional cost for some.

I think you'd answered your own question. COST. Why fix something that isn't broken if it will not gain additional benefits and also cost more?

 

[1911Tuner]

Why have no handgun manufacturers it seems, used a combination hydraulic buffered spring assembly for the recoil spring.

Probably because they all understand that the guns don't need shock absorbers.

I'll do a couple of sentences and a few cut and paste's, but that's about it.

Then cut and paste all the pictures of impact damaged frames that you've found. Walt didn't have much luck. Maybe you will.

 

[JamieC]

Question, if the frame doesn't get 'battered' from using too light a recoil spring and too hot a load, what does? I guess that's directed towards 1911s, I'll also guess different platforms might get different parts 'battered'. FWIW, there IS a company that markets a type of shock absorber that replaces the recoil spring guide rod, can't think of the name, I'll have to look when I get home. A combination of shock absorber and spring can't be all bad...

 

[JRH6856]

FWIW, there IS a company that markets a type of shock absorber that replaces the recoil spring guide rod....A combination of shock absorber and spring can't be all bad...

Yes it can. I tried one in 3 different 1911s. After a significant number of failures to feed and/or eject in all 3, I tossed it.

As to what takes the abuse, see post #25

 

[1911Tuner]

Question, if the frame doesn't get 'battered' from using too light a recoil spring and too hot a load, what does?

The upper barrel lugs and mating slide lugs, and the slide breechface...but the spring doesn't have anything to do with that.

The slide and barrel assembly is the gun. The frame is essentially little more than the gun mount...and it's engineered to absorb impact in compression...and the abutment runs the length of the frame. It's not fragile.

I've been playing on these gun boards for 12 or 13 years now...both as a lurker and a participant. I've seen pictures and read descriptions of pretty much every malfunction, breakage, part failure and minor glitch that a 1911 pistol can produce...and I have yet to see a picture or read a complaint of a destroyed or even a moderately damaged frame impact abutment.

It would seem that...given the sheer number of 1911-pattern pistols out there, and the people who shoot'em hard for years...there would be dozens if not hundreds of examples of this destruction. It's just not there.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Question, if the frame doesn't get 'battered' from using too light a recoil spring and too hot a load, what does?

The shooter, perhaps? Lots of people find that using different recoil springs change the EXPERIENCE of the recoil. More about this, below.

I guess that's directed towards 1911s, I'll also guess different platforms might get different parts 'battered'.

I wouldn't be surprised if some guns, particularly some that aren't made for hot loads, might find themselves getting battered -- with frames actually stretching, over time. It happens with revolvers, but the transfer of force there is more direct, with fewer variables and points of contact where force can be transferred.

FWIW, there IS a company that markets a type of shock absorber that replaces the recoil spring guide rod, can't think of the name, I'll have to look when I get home. A combination of shock absorber and spring can't be all bad...

Springco does that, as do other companies. I bought a used CZ some years ago and it came with a Springco recoil reduction unit. Their materials make no claim about protecting the gun. Some use a guide rod that has mercury or some other heavy material in it, adding MASS to the process. Most of them advertise their products as something that makes the gun more comfortable to shoot, or more manageable. I haven't seen a lot of advertising focused on "protecting the gun." I think most of them simply redistribute the recoil force differently, over a slightly different span of time.

I think that's what most of them are intended to do: to change the experience of recoil, and NOT protect the gun. Changing the experience of recoil might change things so that the gun might not rise quite as high or as quickly; in some cases, the shooter won't feel the force in quite the same way -- what was a sharp crack might be come a longer duller thump.

As someone else has noted, heavier springs have a downside -- some of the force is converted to heat, but some of it is retained and sent back to the gun with the slide's return to battery.

I don't understand enough about physics to appreciate all of the variables, but the force from the rounds being fired that aren't captured by the springs, must be passed through the gun to the shooter. I suspect that a heavier recoil spring (24 lbs rather than 14 lbs, for example) isn't really changing the equation all that much -- and substantial force is still being passed into the gun through point of interface (or interfaces) to the shooter. (I'm much more familiar with CZs than 1911s, but I think the underlying principles are the same.)

On hammer-fired guns, force is also being transferred to the hammer spring (as the slide moves back), and I would think that a heavier hammer spring would do as much to prevent frame damage as a heavier recoil spring -- as some of that stored force doesn't hit the gun again until the next shot (hammer drop.)

I've been told that a few of the top shooters in IPSC use these recoil reduction devices to let them fire their weapons more effectively in a timed contest. I suspect that saving the gun isn't really an issue for them, as they probably can get a new gun whenever they need it. Minimizing the amount of muzzle flip, or slowing it can make the gun more manageable and THAT probably is an issue for them.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding all of this -- it won't be the first time I've misunderstood some of the subtler aspects of handgun mechanisms -- and if you find that what I've written above is wrong, please feel free to share your findings with us.

 

[1911Tuner]

I think that's what most of them are intended to do: to change the experience of recoil, and NOT protect the gun.

We've got a former Grand Master locally by the name of Larry Brown. He's friends with Brian Enos, and has shot matches against him in the past. To say that the boy can shoot would be the understatement of the century.

His pistol is .40 S&W caliber, built on a Caspian slide and frame set. He loads to 180 pf and uses a 10-pound spring with double shock buffs. He explained this setup to me.

The light spring softens the push from the spring, and the double buffers soften the slide's impact so the gun doesn't torque upward so sharply. The gun runs flatter, and lets him get back on target quicker. The twin buffs shorten the slide travel and brings the cycle time back up to speed with the light spring.

The buffs are not...according to him...to protect the frame.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've been through one of Larry's classes. It's not only that he can shoot, he can help other people shoot better. Amazing fellow. He is an amazing shooter -- he did his first IDPA qualifier at our club... with a new gun provided by a friend which he had never used before. He qualified with a high MASTER score in the SSP division. He has a unique ability to teach without showing off, focusing intensely on the student; I don't know how he does it, but he never tweaks egos, etc. Hard to do with a bunch of us shooters. When last I talked with him, several years ago, he was working with Special Ops troops (like Delta Force, etc.) at Fort Bragg.

Since first replying, earlier today, I found the following stashed away on my hard drive, originally posted by a member of the Carolina Shooter's Club Forum before Blackwater became something else:

LARRY Brown -- he knows his stuff!

His credentials as a tier 1 trainer @ Bragg,
FBI HRT shooting instructor,
instructor/contractor at Blackwater,
IPSC Grand Master,
Olympic team shooter,
Firearms OEM R&D engineer,

and trainer to Chris Tilley (World Class Shooter), who speaks highly of his skills as a shooter. Only a small handful of guys in the Carolinas can match his credentials.​

 

[Hangingrock]

LARRY Brown -- he knows his stuff!

His credentials as a tier 1 trainer @ Bragg,
FBI HRT shooting instructor,
instructor/contractor at Blackwater,
IPSC Grand Master,
Olympic team shooter,
Firearms OEM R&D engineer,

and trainer to Chris Tilley (World Class Shooter), who speaks highly of his skills as a shooter. Only a small handful of guys in the Carolinas can match his credentials.

The credentials listed can this information be independently validated?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Don't know how easily, but it's general knowledge in this area -- as he has been seen in national rankings, has been working for the DoD at Bragg, etc. You can probably find more about him on the Brian Enos forum, etc. If you meet him personally, you may have to drag his credentials out of him, as he's not the bragging kind. But believe me, he's been there and done that...

I just did a Google Search on "Larry Brown, IPSC grandmaster" and found his name associated with (as an instructor) a number of firms here in NC... I don't think he's been active in IPSC for the past several years, but was still participating when I had one of his classes. Try "Larry Brown, shooting instructor" and see what you get, too. He does carbine classes, with his firm Lomax Tactical.

 

[GLOOB]

Question, if the frame doesn't get 'battered' from using too light a recoil spring and too hot a load, what does?

Well, frames do get battered, I'm sure. But the first concern is the brass.

When you start to overload a cartridge in a locked breech semiauto handgun, one of the first things that happens is the barrel will start unlocking too soon while pressures are still too high. This can cause failures to extract or even blown out cases, aka kB's. Once the case fails and the genie is let out of the bottle at several thousands of PSI, bad stuff happens. So the first thing to fail is often the brass.

It is true that changing recoil spring for different loads is sometimes necessary, and it works. But leaving the spring just about strong enough to return the slide to battery would work for an even larger range of loads, if you could make adjustments to the slide mass. Changing slide mass is way more expensive and inconvenient.

 

[1911Tuner]

one of the first things that happens is the barrel will start unlocking too soon while pressures are still too high.

Sorry, but that can't happen with a locked breech pistol.

 

[barnbwt]

And well before that, you get really gnarly and violent extraction that breaks delicate things (and your brass). While I don't see true unlocking transpiring on a well timed gun like the 1911 (with plenty of margin for pressures to drop before disengaging) I can see at least the potential for translation of the lug surfaces against each other while under excessive bolt thrust; in this situation, galling could be a possibility at the barrel/slide interfaces. Even, then, very little displacement could occur before the bullet exits, pressure 'instantly' drops to ambient, and lugs unload before dropping fully

TCB

 

[1911Tuner]

Even, then, very little displacement could occur before the bullet exits, pressure 'instantly' drops to ambient, and lugs unload before dropping full.

Yes.

Barrel linkdown is a timed event. It occurs at the same point in the cycle regardless of the speed of the cycle.

The barrel can't "unlock" until the lugs are vertically disengaged.

The breech can't open until the lugs vertically disengage.

If you want to get technical, the barrel lugs engage vertically, but they lock horizontally in opposition under high shear forces.

The lugs vertically disengage at (nominally) .200 inch of rearward slide/barrel travel. At 1/8th inch of rearward travel...well before the lugs are disengaged...the bullet base is about 3/4 inch out of the muzzle, assuming 230 grains at 830 fps.

Higher pressure would speed up the cycle, but it speeds up both ends...slide and bullet...so that slide to bullet travel ratio would remain more or less constant, and any variation would be inconsequential.

 

[GLOOB]

Higher pressure would speed up the cycle, but it speeds up both ends...slide and bullet...so that slide to bullet travel ratio would remain more or less constant, and any variation would be inconsequential.

Yes, in a recoil-operated locked breech firearm, the bullet is always going to leave the barrel before the breech unlocks as long as the bullet is within the normal weight range for caliber. But the pressure doesn't instantly drop as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel.

one of the first things that happens is the barrel will start unlocking too soon while pressures are still too high.

Sorry, but that can't happen with a locked breech pistol.

At some point, you can start getting failures to extract, because the pressure in the case is pushing the brass against the chamber walls, making the case stick. In my book, this qualifies as the barrel unlocking too soon while pressures are still too high. This is a consequence that CAN be remedied by increasing the weight of the recoil spring.

Not all guns are the same, granted. Some stay locked much longer than others. It's possible that certain guns won't have extraction problems up until the point where the casehead just blows out due to overpressure. But in many or most cases, extraction will be a problem.

If frame battering didn't exist, nor extraction problems due to pistols unlocking too soon while pressure are still too high, then any locked breech 9mm handgun should be able to shoot +P+ ammo without a problem. Or Israeli submachine gun-only ammo, for that matter.

 

[1911Tuner]

At some point, you can start getting failures to extract, because the pressure in the case is pushing the brass against the chamber walls, making the case stick. In my book, this qualifies as the barrel unlocking too soon while pressures are still too high.

While high pressures can almost seem to weld a case to the chamber, the gun can't unlock while the pressures are too high.

In order for pressure to be too high, the bullet has to be present. Once the bullet exits, the pressure follows it out the muzzle via the path of least resistance.

The bullet exits while the lugs are still completely engaged vertically. If the lugs are vertically engaged, the breech is still locked horizontally.

By the time the lugs completely disengage vertically, allowing he breech to open...the bullet is gone and the pressure is at or nearly at atmospheric.

If the pressures were so high that the brass case can't spring back in time to allow clean extraction, that happened at peak pressure...well before the linkdown/unlocking sequence started.

In a pistol, pressures peak quickly, with very little area under the curve...and drop quickly as the volume of the cylinder increases.

You can fire a locked breech pistol like the 1911 without a spring at all and nothing bad will happen. The barrel won't unlock early and the frame won't be damaged. This, regardless of pressure and velocity.

Yes, in a recoil-operated locked breech firearm, the bullet is always going to leave the barrel before the breech unlocks as long as the bullet is within the normal weight range for caliber.

That doesn't matter, either. The locked breech pistol is a closed action/reaction system. It's like an equation. Whatever is done to one end is done to the other end. i.e. A heavier bullet will have a lower rate of acceleration and so will the slide. If pressure and force increase, acceleration rates increase on both ends and vice-versa.