Hydraulic recoil spring?

[thefish]

I've been thinking about a handgun for my wife, and what will work best for her. Ideally it would be something like the m&p shield or bodyguard. The main issue however, is the stiffness of the slide spring. If either of these two guns had the recoil spring of the sig p238 it would be perfect.

This got me thinking. Why have no handgun manufacturers it seems, used a combination hydraulic buffered spring assembly for the recoil spring. Obviously it would cost more, but to have an easier to rack slide seems like a benefit worthy of additional cost for some.

Just wondering.

 

[Got_Lead?]

Interesting concept, that's what artillery uses. Must have some merits.

 

[Edarnold]

Take a look at the innards of an auto shock absorber, then imagine scaling that down to fit inside a pistol slide. Seals, valves and hydraulic fluid get too bulky for small arms, which is why you don't see them even in rifle caliber machine guns.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well, there was the H&K P7M7 which replaced it's gas retarded system with an oil filled buffer...it just wasn't well received

 

[ATLDave]

I think it is because the point of the recoil spring is not to "absorb" or "buffer" recoil energy.... it's to close the slide.

 

[1911Tuner]

I think it is because the point of the recoil spring is not to "absorb" or "buffer" recoil energy.... it's to close the slide.

And we have a winner!

 

[45_auto]

You really ought to enlighten Bill Wilson about the error in his thoughts on 1911 recoil springs.

http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/1911/a-guide-to-1911-recoil-springs-by-wilson-combat/

The recoil spring in a 1911 pistol is an important part of the puzzle of overall autoloader reliability. The primary purpose of the recoil spring is to strip a cartridge from the magazine during the feeding process and secondly, to protect the frame from excess slide battering during operation.

If the only purpose of the recoil spring is to close the slide, why wouldn't you just run the same spring for all cartridges? Does a more powerful cartridge somehow require more force to close the slide? Do you really believe that a .460 Rowland cartridge (24# recoil spring) requires twice the force of a 9mm (12# recoil spring) to strip from the mag and slide into the chamber?

 

[Theohazard]

The main issue however, is the stiffness of the slide spring.

Unless she's unusually weak or disabled in some way, she should have no trouble racking the slide using the proper technique.

 

[silicosys4]

You really ought to enlighten Bill Wilson about the error in his thoughts on 1911 recoil springs.

http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/1911/a-guide-to-1911-recoil-springs-by-wilson-combat/



If the only purpose of the recoil spring is to close the slide, why wouldn't you just run the same spring for all cartridges? Does a more powerful cartridge somehow require more force to close the slide? Do you really believe that a .460 Rowland cartridge (24# recoil spring) requires twice the force of a 9mm (12# recoil spring) to strip from the mag and slide into the chamber?

Says right in the article, the spring's main duty is to strip a round from the magazine and return the slide to battery. When a gun has to have a heavier spring to protect the gun from slide battering, it is because the gun has been modified with a more powerful cartridge. Something has to accommodate for the added stress on a gun that wasn't designed for the cartridge, and a heavier spring is the easiest way to do it. The heavier spring is doing two things instead of one, returning the slide to battery and generating more resistance for the slide to overcome...but that's not how the gun was designed to work. That's a makeshift solution to safely taking the gun outside its design limitations.
You also didn't mention the biggest part to the .460 rowland conversion...the compensator.
If the spring took up all that excess recoil as you suggest, why do they require a very efficient compensator to be used to reduce the recoil impulse? It's because the recoil spring is a poor place to absorb excess energy. By the time you get a spring strong enough to overcome all that extra recoil, the spring is too heavy to cycle the slide by hand, or the spring starts battering on the return.
So no, the recoil spring is not really meant to overcome recoil impulse unless the gun has been modified, and the heavier recoil spring is an imperfect fix at best.

That still doesn't change the fact that a hydraulic buffer instead of a spring is not an optimal setup for the reasons mentioned above. I would think a slide spring has to be able to provide a specific amount of energy to return the slide to battery in a short amount of time, something I don't see hydraulics being able to match.

 

[1911Tuner]

What is this "frame battering" that is spoken of?

In over 50 years, I've never seen a frame battered.

Down here, we batter chicken and catfish and squash and okra...but not frames.

 

[silicosys4]

^^ I wouldn't expect a guy who maintains his 1911's correctly and uses the correct springs in them would.
So are you saying that because you personally haven't experienced it in any of your no doubt well maintained 1911's that frame battering doesn't exist and people shouldn't be sparing a second thought?
please clarify, because I was finding plenty of information and pictures out on the www about battered 1911 frames, and your reply seems a little nonchalant and flippant for info that could ruin someones gun in short order if one were to take it at face value...that there is no such thing as battering the frame of a 1911...which as far as I could find, is NOT the case.

no problems if I cut the comp off of a .460 rowland barrel and run a standard recoil spring, eh? Whats the big deal with .45 super, then?

 

[1911Tuner]

please clarify,

I gotta go feed this pack of dogs right now. This could get a bit lengthy.

But before I go, I'll tell ya about Bob.

Bob is a local IDPA/USPSA shooter who is completely serious about his game. He shoots a lot. He also doesn't want to take a chance on his ammo barely missing major, so he loads nearly to hardball equivalent.

Bob has worn out 4 barrels and busted a slide at the breechface.

He's used a 12-pound spring from the git-go, and he changes it out about every 50-60 thousand rounds...or whenever he starts to get sluggish return to battery...whichever comes first.

Did I mention that Bob shoots a lot? Bob shoots a lot.

He's been using the same Colt frame for over 10 years...and it's fine. I did peen the rails for him 3 years ago when he had to replace the busted slide...but that's the only surgery that's been done on the frame.

There's more. I'll be back in a bit. I've got a lotta dogs, and they just notified me that if I don't feed'em soon, they're gonna gnaw my shoes off.

 

[silicosys4]

Wow, bob shoots a lot, but you didn't answer the question.
Do you believe frame battering to be an issue in 1911's in any circumstance? Or is it all just a bunch of B.S completely fabricated and I need to ignore the plethora of pictures that pop up when I google "1911 frame battering"?
Why isn't the .460 rowland recommended for ALL 1911 platforms instead of a few manufacturers?
Sorry but your anecdote isn't really much more than one example to me of a person who has either gotten lucky and not broken or damaged the frame of his well used 1911, or you know the tricks to maintaining one...
I couldn't tell you why you haven't seen it, but I am not convinced that it doesn't happen and that it's all a big conspiracy to keep me buying new springs.

So again, I can cut the comp off a .460 rowland and run a standard recoil spring out of a Rock Island commander. and not worry about frame damage?

I wish I had the time to shoot enough to worry about it myself, and I don't feel like making up a bunch of hot loads to see if I can beat the tar out of my gun to prove my point so its all conjecture to me.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If the only purpose of the recoil spring is to close the slide, why wouldn't you just run the same spring for all cartridges? Does a more powerful cartridge somehow require more force to close the slide? Do you really believe that a .460 Rowland cartridge (24# recoil spring) requires twice the force of a 9mm (12# recoil spring) to strip from the mag and slide into the chamber?

I don't mean this response to be as argumentative as it might sound, but...

With a moderate-weight recoil spring, you probably COULD run the same spring with all those different loads. I don't know that the frame would be badly battered, but a medium-strength spring would arguably have enough force to strip the round and close the slide.

A question for you and others involved in this discussion: have YOU (or any of you) personally had a gun damaged by a too-weak recoil spring?

I've asked this question a number of time and have yet to get the answer YES, based on a real-world experience. Frame damage from excess recoil seems to be something that everybody's heard of, but few have actually had happen with THEIR personal weapons. I've seen revolvers that seemed to STRETCH from firing hot loads... and suspect that semi-autos could suffer similar abuse, but haven't really encountered THAT in a semi-auto, yet.) Photos of frame battering would be of interest -- you mention some of this -- but how do you determine causes? I know that with hammer-fired guns, the mainspring (hammer spring) also plays a role in retarding the slide, so that must have some role in preventing damage to the gun, if there's damage to be prevented... In one of the discussions on this forum, among several seemingly knowledgeable people, including a couple of custom gun makers, they couldn't even agree of what was causing the damage, or how it occurred.

Note: following the comments about pictures of 1911 frame battering, I did a Google Search. I found only a few pictures of damaged guns on the web (using Google images.) A couple of the photos linked back to discussions on this forum in the SMITHY area. There seemed to be no consensus, and there really wasn't any clear cut evidence as to causes of the damage. Only one of the few photos in the pictures I found was a 1911, and there was mention of slide damage as well as frame damage in some of the discussions showing other guns, and some of it had to do with poor specs in the new guns, misfit parts, etc.

As for Bill Wilson being cited as an authority in this matter: Bill may certainly know something about .45s that most of us don't know. Wilson also sells recoil buffers and his own brand of recoil springs. I've never heard a convincing argument for using a recoil buffer in most guns, especially in .45 1911s. (I've heard an almost convincing argument for it's use in a BHP, and know that a few models of H&K pistols come from the factory with special buffers installed.) I don't run one in my BHP, and I don't own an H&K. I suppose it could all depend on the the design of the gun, etc., as all recoil mechanisms aren't created equal.

I'd really like some credible evidence for EITHER SIDE of this argument, as we all seem to be relying on hearsay and "web facts."
.

 

[1911Tuner]

Wow, bob shoots a lot, but you didn't answer the question.
Do you believe frame battering to be an issue in 1911's in any circumstance?

You asked me to clarify my statement.

That was part of it. You can draw your own conclusions. Bob estimated that he's fired something over a half million rounds in his pistol. If the frame fails tomorrow, he's gotten his money's worth. Everything breaks eventually, if we use it.

I don't do snark. If that's your game, then I'm done.

But to answer your question:

Do you believe frame battering to be an issue in 1911's in any circumstance?

I know that it's not nearly the grave concern that it's made out to be. The gun just isn't that fragile.

As for Bill Wilson being cited as an authority in this matter: Bill may certainly know something about .45s that most of us don't know. Wilson also sells recoil buffers and his own brand of recoil springs.

Reckon he's got a dog in the fight, Walt?

Marketing 101: First, convince the customer that he needs it...then sell it to him.

I shall return following a short break.

 

[1911Tuner]

Batter batter batter...up! Part 2

Back in the fall of '91 and the winter of '92, I bought two Colt 1911A1s specifically for beater duty...and I proceeded to beat'em like a borrowed mule. Until the last 2 years, when I fell and wrecked my right shoulder, I burned through a lot of ammo. All of it has been hardball equivalent, or maybe a little warmer. (200 grains loaded to 870fps)

It's also very nasty ammo because of the soft lube, so...due to my habit of firing 504 rounds per session...I've used a 16 pound spring because I noticed that around 400 rounds, the slide got a little sluggish on the return with my go-to standard 14 pound springs. Since I'm not real big on stripping and cleaning/oiling a gun that close to the end...I started using 16 pound springs. I never used a shock buffer in either gun until a friend gave me a couple to try. I tried'em for one session and took'em out.

By best close estimates, the Colts are nearing 400,000 rounds about evenly split. They're on their 3rd barrels, and one busted the slide right about the 150,000 round mark. A friend found an OEM slide at a show and picked it up for me.

There isn't the first sign of battering or peening in the impact abutments on either gun...slide or frame. Both frames cracked at the usual place many years and many tens of thousands of rounds ago...at the junction of the rail and the abutment, but that's the result of thin cross-sections and sharp corners...known as stress risers. The cracks are self-limiting, and they haven't affected the function of the guns in any way.

After ramping back following my injury...roughly half of my old habit per session...I went back to 14 pound springs, which I change out about every 10-12 thousand rounds.

But wait! There's more! Stay tuned, shock buffer fans. I shall return.

 

[45_auto]

What is this "frame battering" that is spoken of?

There's a pretty good book on 1911 basics by Jerry Kuhnhausen. I'm surprised someone who goes by a screen name like yours isn't familiar with it. He describes it for you on page 75.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Colt-45-automatic-manual/dp/B0006EVYAU

Still waiting for an explanation of why a spring sufficient to chamber a round (10-12 pounds) isn't standard on every caliber of 1911 if it's only purpose is to return the slide to battery. Why are stronger springs specified for more powerful cartridges?

Claims that "Billy Bob used one and it doed jus fine" don't really qualify as an explanation.

 

[tarosean]

Take a look at the innards of an auto shock absorber, then imagine scaling that down to fit inside a pistol slide.

Even those are used in conjunction with springs. I.e. Coil or leaf

 

[tarosean]

Why isn't the .460 rowland recommended for ALL 1911 platforms instead of a few manufacturers?

I would imagine its because there are far to many producers of 1911's with their own versions and specs and materials of what a 1911 is supposed to be..

Not sure what hot rodded ammo has to do with stock frames? If I dropped a nitromethane burning big block in my wife's 65 mustang. I guarantee ill twist the frame like a pretzel without doing serious work to the frame, etc.

Running with the big dogs has its trade offs.

 

[barnbwt]

"By the time you get a spring strong enough to overcome all that extra recoil, the spring is too heavy to cycle the slide by hand, or the spring starts battering on the return."
Something that too often goes unconsidered... If I understand the thrust of Tuner's wisdom, it is that battering occurs when the gun is being misused and is also so progressive it can be ignored/mitigated by an attentive user over the life of the gun. I can agree to that. I think most of the battering fear comes from guys who paid too much for their guns and now fear the risk of damaging them

While not 1911's, blowback SMG's almost always had a buffering cushion at the back of the tube for the bolt to contact, but this was more to reduce recoil shock than to prevent damage (since there's usually nothing particularly important in the back of the bolt/receiver in a tube gun). In that respect, I imagine a hydraulic buffer would actually help with recoil. I have heard of baffled tubes filled with mercury being used on Safari rifles to dampen/dissipate some of their monumental recoil, so I'm sure something similar could be done with the guide rod, or something.

Another thing to keep in mind as well, is that as short a distance as the slide is moving (compared to automotive shocks) you'd need a pretty viscous material to absorb a meaningful amount of energy before the slide slowed too much --since the rate of energy dissipation will rapidly drop as the slide slows-- and this would seriously impede the return stroke of the system. A true one-way valve setup that only resists movement in one direction would be hopelessly complicated and would eat up what little fluid volume you could fit in a pistol.

And then lastly there is the question of what happens to the energy dissipated? It evolves into heat, which must be convected off the gun fast enough that multiple shots won't heat the fluid to the point it loses viscosity (pistol shooters would never do that ). Problem is, that it's a pretty convoluted path to conduct through the fluid to the cylinder, then conduct to the frame, then convect/radiate to the surroundings (at the shooter's hand ). I think you'd have a H&K P7 thermal-loss issue in short order that makes the gun uncomfortable after a couple mags.

TCB

 

[Jim Watson]

The auto shock absorber is better described by the British term, "damper." The spring absorbs the energy, the damper keeps it from being returned too suddenly. Look at jounce vs rebound ratings.

 

[Drail]

.." we batter chicken and catfish and squash and okra"... ohmigod, I wanna party with THAT guy. I'm drooling all over my keyboard cuz of you.

 

[silicosys4]

I don't do snark. If that's your game, then I'm done.

You came into a discussion and make a very vague, flippant, all encompassing statement that does not stand up to available information. Honestly, that was not what I'd expect from a mod with handle like yours, and I asked you to clarify because your statement seems counter to what I was finding. I gave specific examples or scenario's in which manufacturers state can cause battering, and situations in which people have reported frame battering.

So far you have provided two personal anecdotes, both about one manufacturer; Colt...and revised your statement from "whats battering?" to "I don't think its a grave concern"....who said it was a grave concern? I simply said it happens, albeit under extraordinary circumstances, and you disagreed, on the basis that "you've never seen it".

Not good enough to justify a flippant dismissal of any possibility of frame battering in the 1911, imo.
If you worked in the Colt repair shop and told me you've never seen a gun come back with a battered frame, I'd be much more inclined to simply take your word for it.

Here is the pdf version of Kuhnhausen's book.
http://www.restigouchegunclub.com/F...matic_-_A_Shop_Manual_Vol.1_by_Kuhnhausen.pdf

scroll down to pg 75 as was mentioned to find the explanation.

 

[barnbwt]

"The auto shock absorber is better described by the British term, "damper." "
I thought it was dashpot?

TCB

 

[1911Tuner]

Although I didn't actually start wrenchin' on the 1911 until 1965, my experience with it goes back to 1959 when I fired my first one.


Back in the day, USGI 1911s and 1911A1s were stacked on gunshow tables like cordwood. The vendors could barely give'em away. A really nice Colt or Remington Rand could be had for as little as 30 bucks. The dogs went for half that much.

Those were the ones my father and uncle bought. At the next table, they had all the parts needed to completely rebuild one...cheap.

Shoot until they break...rebuild...lather, rinse, repeat until the frame rails were so worn that they couldn't be rebuilt again. Toss and start over.

Ammunition was also cheap. Mil-surp .45 ball sold for a penny a round. If you bought 2,000 rounds, it was a little cheaper. It was so cheap that nobody reloaded it except the bullseye shooters.

At this point, it's good to note two things.

One...the most significant...is that neither the frames nor the slides were heat treated. The 3000 Series steel was
dead soft...or whatever the steel would register on the Rockwell "C" scale in its untreated state.

Two...there were no heavy duty recoil springs. There was only military surplus, and none of those were 16 pound springs. By the original prints, weight wasn't specified. Rather, it was 32.75 turns of .043 diameter music wire. Comparing that to Wolff's
32-turn 14 pound spring, it works out to about 14.5 pounds at full compression and 13.5 at full slide travel as installed. Later, the springs were specified at 30 turns of .045 diameter wire...which compared to Wolff's 32-turn 16 pound spring, still works
out to about 14.5 pounds.

We went through a lot of those old pistols. I shot a few until the late 80s, and never even owned a "modern" 1911 until 1984.

I've never seen a frame impact abutment battered into unserviceability from impact damage. Ever. The closest I've seen to any damage were a couple of 1918 Colts that had light flanging around the abutment that I cleaned up in 30 seconds with a triangularscrape, and carried on.

I did see a few old slide impact abutments cracked at the junction of the tunnel, and a few cracked at the breechface...which comes from recoil stresses and isn't affected by the spring. They were all high-mileage, and well worn. This is why, for every finished pistol that was delivered to the US Army, a dozen slides and barrels were ordered. It's the slide that catches all the hell.

The idea that the gun needs heavy springs and shock buffs to prevent this horrendous frame battering is, frankly, just so much sheep dip.

Marketing 101.