I am considering going to market with a different Concealed Carry Vest design-survey

[BullfrogKen]

Thanks for all your advice so far, and 2 photos attached

I appreciate the many kind responses and encouragement. They were enlightening, and confirmed some thoughts I had suspected extended to the rest of the community from my experiences over the past half dozen years working with trainers, enthusiasts, and practitioners at the NTI events.

I promised some pictures. Here's our Christmas portrait, taken at home with my wonderful wife and dogs. This print is perhaps my favorite of the maybe 3 dozen I've made myself over the past few years.

The cream striped material is from a picture taken at Jim Garthwaite's shop last summer. Four team NTI members spent a week with him, and he ran us through a class building custom 1911s from unfinished parts. The cane isn't wasn't a prop. I was struggling hard with a chronic health condition at the time, and the large dose of Prednisone I was on exaggerates some knee crap caused by youthful indiscretion as a young Marine infantryman. By the way, Jim is an artist, and I am honored to know him. Even being sick as ????? half the time, I had one of the best weeks of my life there under his instruction, and with 4 of the finest men I have the honor of having as friends.

I admit I've grown a bit eccentric in my personal style. After the first half dozen khaki, navy, greens and gold colors, I get carried away in the great selection at the local fabric outlet and just kept going. I guess we all have opinions on what is obvious and what is discreet, what we feel we can get away with around people we spend 40+ hours weeks with and what we feel we can't.

I am into my fourth year of carrying outside the waistband holsters for either a LW Commander, or recently a Cobra for times when health reasons dictate the inability to tolerate the weight of the 1911. Its not much, but when I'm havin' problems, after 12 hours I do notice the difference between a 1911 and a reload versus the Cobra and a speedloader. Not once to my knowledge has anyone I worked with thought concealment garment, and I've walked through some pretty tight security at a 6000 person main office in McClean without question. Those I am close with at work just think I am a bit peculiar as a former Marine who sews and rarely pry further once I get to talking about it, so I guess it serves as an effective smokescreen. Hell, maybe they think I'm gay . . .

I also never discuss guns, or even anything remotely gun related, amongst them. That, I think more than anything, dispells suspicion. If someone were to catch on, I would wager it would be a likeminded fellow and kindred spirit who would wink at it . . . which might cause the rest of the oblivious folks to suspect we were a couple of gay cowboys with that winking.


I'm seeing the photographer who took the portrait Thursday, and I'll get a few pictures taken of my more conventional colors, though the cut and style is no different from these examples. The digital camera I have access to just doesn't have the quality I want.

 

[joebogey]

BullfrogKen

I'm impressed...
I couldn't spot a CCW on either one of those dogs.


Sorry Man...

 

[Taipei Personality]

I'd like to know just who you guys think vests and fanny packs "scream" to?

I think it's pretty well known that convicted criminals use the time they spend in prison to hone their skills, especially by sharing their knowledge among the other inmates. It certainly would not take long for the word to get around that the plain clothes officer or CCW citizen who helped put the convict in prison was wearing either an obviously out-of-fashion vest or a fanny pack in an environment where fanny packs are not common. In my opinion, a 5.11 vest is especially telling as is a large, black fanny pack.

Vests and fanny packs, or sport coats, Hawaiian shirts, and extra-large T-shirts for that matter, do not necessarily scream concealed gun. However, any concealing garment that is obviously out-of-place with the dress of the surrounding public may.

That being said, I use both a 5.11 vest and a large, black fanny pack. However, I only use the 5.11 vest for IDPA (gamer!) and I only use the black fanny pack to hold my car gun. Neither one are seen by the general public.

 

[mr_dove]

I think that your vests look great and they appear to be long enough to fit my needs.

I started to join the argument about whether vests and fanny packs "scream" but that argument has taken place too many times and this is not the place for it. I'm sure a search on the topic will reveal much wisdom.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Taipei Personality said: I only use the 5.11 vest for IDPA (gamer!)

Of the 2 to 3 dozen fellas I personally know who own this brand, or a similiar style vest, they almost universally follow the same habit. They wear it to our Saturday monthly study group meetings, the NTI event, or IDPA events/practices. I was out last night visiting my buddies at the club for their Thursday night IDPA practice; out of a dozen there who had this style vest, when asked would admit these events are the only time they wear it.

The survey results so far have yielded the same tendancy; but as always with a few exceptions.

mr_dove said: I think that your vests look great

Thank you for the kind word.

mr_dove said:I started to join the argument about whether vests and fanny packs "scream" but that argument has taken place too many times and this is not the place for it.

Well, I anticipated that when I broached the topic 2 days ago it would take about 5 responses before someone posted a message and start the banter over "vests are obvious giveaways someone has a gun." To those who think they are, then for them, yes they do. I guess I don't think most of the public notices or is looking to spot the armed guy in the crowd. Since we ponder these matters and make efforts to keep our tools obscured, we're attuned to it. I suspect perhaps we can let ourselves become a bit oversensitive, self-conscious, or even paranoid about who might figure us out.

Once in a while someone makes a reference to telling an overly-inquisitive person he's just covering up an ostomy bag. I in fact do know folks in my support group that have ostomies, and will use loose fitting clothing to hide their appliance, but if its attached highly on the abdomen, they look for vests or sweaters to cover it up. One fella cannot wear untucked, ill-fitted clothes to work because his professional decorum dictates he appear well-dressed when he meets his clients. You know what, these folks are afraid everyone will notice or ask about their ostomy because they always wear sweaters or vests around co-workers. They've got the same sensitivity, except it revolves around an embarrassing medical condition.


You ever notice a gal wearing a vest and wonder what brand ostomy appliance she uses?


I think maybe we can let ourselves fixate on whether a released inmate will walk around trying to spot the armed guy in the crowd, and grant him an unwarranted amount of fear. Personally, I don't. I concern myself more with conforming to my co-workers in attitude, behavior, and appearance so as to minimize suspicion in their midst.

I met with the owner of the factory yesterday and spent 2 hours with him. We were able to reach an agreement, and I'll start another post to make that announcement. I thought it interesting that not until we began discussing the tailoring, and he asked me why I was so opposed to darting the sides in for a more fitted look, that we got around to my target market. He got interested, told me he has a carry permit, too, and on occasion uses it. I revealed I was carrying my Cobra, and he wanted to get a better look at what else I had around my waist. He truly never suspected I was armed. We then talked for maybe 20 minutes about my activities and involvement in the community. He is not the enthusiast most of us would consider ourselves; he actually represents the typical gun owner. But talking for two hours directly about my product, taking measurements, planning cut, design and assembly; this gun owner and occassional carrier never suspected. And yes, I did ask him directly.

 

[BullfrogKen]

joebogey said: I couldn't spot a CCW on either one of those dogs.

By the way, yes I do love my dogs. They bring me much joy.

 

[Zundfolge]

Biggest problem with this vest is that its a vest.

Vests are ugly ... they don't go with anything unless you're trying to dress up like a cowboy or something.


I'll stick with IWB thanks (however for those who like vests, yours looks like it will work well).

 

[mr_dove]

I love your stories about the ostomies. My Father in Law had a colonostomy (complete removal of the colon) and had to wear a bag for a while before they could reattach his intestines and get things running again.

I'm really glad that you found a pro-gun tailor. That might turn out to be especially helpful.

I suppose I'm a good example of consistancy. I pretty much wear the same outfit every single day. My wardrobe consists of:

5 pairs of cargo shorts
8 hawaiian shirts
4 fleece pull-overs

I wear the shorts and hawaiian shirts EVERY SINGLE DAY. That includes the dead of winter in sub-zero temps. I supplement the shirt with a pull-over or a coat when it is very cold but I never wear pants (except church).

I love vests 3 seasons out of the year. I have a tough time integrating them into my winter outfit since they don't combine well with a pull-over or a coat. Vests are not for everyone. Just like my hawaiian shirts are not for everyone. Dockers and cardigans are not for everyone and suits and ties are not for everyone. They are a good alternative for many folks out there though.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Thanks for the kind word, Mr Dove. Some folks in the support group have permanent ostomies, and have lost any option of re-attachment. I'm glad your father-in-law could. Its probably become apparent that my customers are not just those who wish to conceal arms. It was the motivating factor behind exploring the idea of designing something for myself 5 or so years ago.

But since then my own life experiences have taken me for a few trips and turns, and I encountered things most young healthy people never by the grace of God and good fortune need to think about that have impacted my worldview in a way that well . . . nothing else really could.


I guess most of us have more of a choice in the matter, others unfortunately are stuck trying to make do with ugly vests, jackets that make them hot, and whatever else they can find to improvise with to keep their secret and dignity.

 

[White Horseradish]

Vests are ugly ... they don't go with anything unless you're trying to dress up like a cowboy or something.

Don Johnson as Nash Bridges?

 

[phoglund]

Email sent. Good luck with your endevour.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

That vest looks pretty good. I used to wear vests alot. Especially when I balooned up for awhile. Would it be possible to make some in a higher button pattern to be worn with a dress coat? Dress vests with suits are coming back pretty strong.

Very cute dogs also. Although that guy in the pic kind of had a crazy look in his eyes.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Anything is possible, for a fee.

To keep costs reasonable with the factory, using one CADD design graded out across a common spread of sizes makes for a better business decision right now. One possible alternative is I could pick out one your size at the factory after the run is complete an add additional buttons higher on the garment before I left. I would want to see how it looked aesthetically before I committed to cutting additional holes first.

One of my shooting friends is a VERY barrel chested weightlifter, and can never find a suit to fit him off the rack. He goes to a tailor to have suits made, including the suit vest; that would probably look nicer than what I could offer if you had that direction in mind.

 

[3rdpig]

Um, how about cops who know that concealed carry is illegal, and have learned how to spot someone who's obviously carrying?

Look, all I was trying to do was give BullfrogKen some free advice, the value of which is always worth the price.

If you want to beat up on me, 3rdpig, that's fine. Just please pick another day. I'm in a pretty bad mood right now. Nebraska and all.

I wasn't trying to beat you up, I was asking a simple question about a statement I hear all the time that makes absolutely no sense to me at all. My obervations tell me that 99% of the people in the world are oblivious of what's going on around them. Sorry to hear that you're having a tough time, my thoughts and prayers go out to everyone in Nebraska who's been affected.

I think it's pretty well known that convicted criminals use the time they spend in prison to hone their skills, especially by sharing their knowledge among the other inmates. It certainly would not take long for the word to get around that the plain clothes officer or CCW citizen who helped put the convict in prison was wearing either an obviously out-of-fashion vest or a fanny pack in an environment where fanny packs are not common. In my opinion, a 5.11 vest is especially telling as is a large, black fanny pack.

Vests and fanny packs, or sport coats, Hawaiian shirts, and extra-large T-shirts for that matter, do not necessarily scream concealed gun. However, any concealing garment that is obviously out-of-place with the dress of the surrounding public may.

I"m not trying to be contentious here, but why would I dress around the concern that a criminal might think I'm armed? Is that a bad thing? Should I fear that some criminal will try to wrestle my gun away from me because my apparel screams gun at him? I think it would make more sense to fear being hit by a falling piece of Skylab.

I don't know where you live, but around here you can see a woman dressed to the nines standing right next to an old man wearing bermuda shorts, black dress shoes, black dress socks with garters and a lime green, plaid golf shirt and right behind them will be a guy who looks like he's just back from the rodeo, and behind him will be a couple of kids dressed like thugs. There is NO fashion around here, it's anything and everything.

Sorry Bullfrog to hijaak the thread, that wasn't my intent, I won't discuss this further in your thread.

BTW, any chances of a couple of discreet outside pockets for reading glasses, folding money, etc?

 

[BullfrogKen]

3rdpigsaid: Sorry Bullfrog to hijaak the thread, that wasn't my intent, I won't discuss this further in your thread.

Hey, don't worry about it. I expected it to take about 5 posts before someone knocked vests as discreet carry garments. Hell, to be truthful I do it, too. You ever see what's out there marketed to us? The reason they're so ubiquitous to those of us looking for the guy in the crowd with a gun is the reason I'm even doing this. Please, let the discussion continue. I actually want to see it tossed around and let the topic develop.

I got what I needed, which was some market interest and confirmation of my assumptions from a wider group of people than my local customers and annual participants at the NTI.

As I mentioned, I have zero concern about a criminal figuring I'm carrying a gun. I don't move amongst criminals in my daily travels, or otherwise I might. I'm concerned with the ability to remain armed among people who would experience shock: those I work beside. That I have found is an entirely different challenge, and it takes more than effective concealment attire.

Were a preditor able to deduce I was armed. Good, it might dissuade him, cause him to alter his approach, or otherwise telegraph his evil intentions. That I consider useful information, and I can make decisions from it. I still think he'd move on knowing he risked injury or death; most of these guys are opportunists and unwilling to get injured in a real fight for my $50.

3rdpigsaid: BTW, any chances of a couple of discreet outside pockets for reading glasses, folding money, etc?

I'm not going to spec it into the CADD design we plot out next week. But it would be no problem to put some on for you by request after the run. Inside pockets I can't add, the thread will show thru to the outer material and you'll see the stitch. Outside, no problem, within reason.

Maybe after the first 1/2 dozen production batches, if they sell well, I'll start adding design variations for more pockets, different style tailoring and those "mesh material backs" that some people like. Right now I have no problem selling this style, so I ought to enter the larger market with what I am comfortable with and know works first.

 

[Taipei Personality]

I"m not trying to be contentious here, but why would I dress around the concern that a criminal might think I'm armed? Is that a bad thing?

Your dress, your choice. My choice is to blend in.