Mustanger1
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Perhaps there wasn't any neighbor that called in a complaint or any one else except for a nosy cop that could have taken it upon himself from idle conversation he had heard...........
I got a visit from local police department
- Thread starter scrat
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Joab,
I didn't miss any point. He rang the door bell, gave me the message, we exchanged pleasantries and he left. He was taking a break at a local convenience store and gave me the message as a favor to the dispatcher. He was on his personal time.
Don't need to get into misuse of resources; which can lead to talk of misuse of authority, misuse of force and all the other stuff that has been beat to death. All occupations have nice people and bad people.
jr
I didn't miss any point. He rang the door bell, gave me the message, we exchanged pleasantries and he left. He was taking a break at a local convenience store and gave me the message as a favor to the dispatcher. He was on his personal time.
Don't need to get into misuse of resources; which can lead to talk of misuse of authority, misuse of force and all the other stuff that has been beat to death. All occupations have nice people and bad people.
jr
MarshallDodge
Member
I also agree with Doc2005.
Sound like the police officer was a nice guy but that may not always be the case. I have friends that are police officers and they have told me to never let a police officer in the house without a warrant.
Sound like the police officer was a nice guy but that may not always be the case. I have friends that are police officers and they have told me to never let a police officer in the house without a warrant.
Except that as you acknowledged, he didn't (and still doesn't) know how much powder he can legally have in his house. What if it was too much, and the cop arrested him for it? Now what? What if the cop spotted something else that scrat didn't know was illegal? Or he happened to leave the drain cleaner out and the cop convinced himself that scrat was cooking meth?
I am glad this worked out well for you. The problem with inviting a cop into the house is once you've invited them in they can pretty much do anything they want. What if this cop had decided to just toss the rest of your house? What then? You can't tell him to leave, you already invited him in. Been there, done that, got the scar.
You should not have "stepped outside". Whatever business an officer has to conduct with you can either be conducted at the front door or the officer can return with a warrant.
You don't have to be rude or aggressive about things but when a cop shows up at your door about a "complaint" well then he better know specifically why he's there and be able to articulate to you what that is.
You should not have "stepped outside". Whatever business an officer has to conduct with you can either be conducted at the front door or the officer can return with a warrant.
You don't have to be rude or aggressive about things but when a cop shows up at your door about a "complaint" well then he better know specifically why he's there and be able to articulate to you what that is.
How to respond in such a situation will be very different for different people in different places. I've lived places that I wouldn't even consdier allowing a cop in my house without a warrant and if I thought he was coming back with one I would have my lawyer on hand. I have had to deal with the police through lawyers before. I have had some BAD interactions with the police, even though I had commited no crime. However, right now I am "home" again, and I know my local police. Not simply some faceless JBT......I know these people and I have for years. I'd have no problem letting them into my home, and if it was around dinner time I;d give them a plate.
Franchised
Member
I suspect the 4th Amendment was written not to protect criminals from government, but to protect innocent citizens from government. I'm sure the Tories made plenty of false reports against those agitating for separation, and have little doubt some of His Majesty's troops or sheriffs planted some evidence from time to time.
I think its safer to refuse consent to a search. One can always be polite, even friendly, in his refusal. A truly professional LEO will understand. The 4th Amend. is for our protection. We might as well use it.
Like Mustang, I wonder if there was even a report of a smell. Its my understanding that police are allowed to lie. I see no reason to accept anything a police officer says at face value except lawful commands.
I don't understand the delay between the LEO response and the accusation. Nor the delay between the alleged odor and the complaint. I can easily imagine a police department telling a caller that they can't do anything about it unless the smell is occurring, and to please call back when they next detect the odor.
I think its safer to refuse consent to a search. One can always be polite, even friendly, in his refusal. A truly professional LEO will understand. The 4th Amend. is for our protection. We might as well use it.
Like Mustang, I wonder if there was even a report of a smell. Its my understanding that police are allowed to lie. I see no reason to accept anything a police officer says at face value except lawful commands.
I don't understand the delay between the LEO response and the accusation. Nor the delay between the alleged odor and the complaint. I can easily imagine a police department telling a caller that they can't do anything about it unless the smell is occurring, and to please call back when they next detect the odor.
joab
Member
Well you are still missing the point
You didn't invite him in, he didn't ask to come in
On your property is not the same thing as being in
Now you further enforce the fact that you missed the point
This in no way compares to an officer on duty acting within the scope of his duties appearing at your home to investigate claims of illegal activity on your part
Now you are starting to get the point of why you never let a uniformed officer acting within the scope of his official duties into your home without proper and legally recognized and procured authority
IMO three screw ups:
1) You went outside. You don't know this guy from the next; he was a cop, but how did you know? I'm not exactly sure, but in my mind's eye it'd be easier for them to arrest you if you were to step outdoors. If he's got something important to say, he can say it through the doorway until you're sure they are who they say they are, and you know it's not a BS complaint (like this one). (On the other hand, you don't want to provoke a warrant entry, or forced entry later on at 2am, so be courteous and obliging up to a point.)
2) You let him inside. This gives him access to you and your's where he did not previously have it, and he is now able to look around and use the 'exigent circumstances' argument to basically do whatever they want. Sure, you might be exonerated after a period of time and large amount of money, but it's not worth the headache. IF you have to share something with them, bring it outdoors.
Something like this, I'd just tell 'em "don't be rediculous. That's not even possible. Now I'm going to go eat dinner. You can come back and talk to me about this tomorrow. I might have some charges to press against someone for criminal harassment."
1) You went outside. You don't know this guy from the next; he was a cop, but how did you know? I'm not exactly sure, but in my mind's eye it'd be easier for them to arrest you if you were to step outdoors. If he's got something important to say, he can say it through the doorway until you're sure they are who they say they are, and you know it's not a BS complaint (like this one). (On the other hand, you don't want to provoke a warrant entry, or forced entry later on at 2am, so be courteous and obliging up to a point.)
2) You let him inside. This gives him access to you and your's where he did not previously have it, and he is now able to look around and use the 'exigent circumstances' argument to basically do whatever they want. Sure, you might be exonerated after a period of time and large amount of money, but it's not worth the headache. IF you have to share something with them, bring it outdoors.
Something like this, I'd just tell 'em "don't be rediculous. That's not even possible. Now I'm going to go eat dinner. You can come back and talk to me about this tomorrow. I might have some charges to press against someone for criminal harassment."
No. There was nothing to see, because he didn't find a violation or a cause to give the OP hell and he wasn't a bad person looking for a reason. There are so many laws on the books - especially in CA! - that he may have been able to arrest for, oh, possession of an IED or some other nonsense. Fire code violations at the least, I'm sure.
Autolycus
Member
Be very wary whenever dealing with LE. They are not your friends. Don't give them a chance to search without a warrant. Exercise your rights. People died so that you would have these rights.
How do you know a neighbor reported it? Do you make ammunition in a publicly visible area? (I wouldn't if you do)
Your neighbor will most likely get a call/visit from the police department telling him that whatever you are doing is legal...
Did you do/continue to do something else to make your neighbor (if he did really tattle) hate you? Loud music? Parties?
I think what you did with the LE officer was fine. Yes you can be a prick and it is your right to tell them to get lost, but with something like this it's often better to be polite (suffer the annoyance of giving your ID) and make a friend in the police officer.
Your neighbor will most likely get a call/visit from the police department telling him that whatever you are doing is legal...
Did you do/continue to do something else to make your neighbor (if he did really tattle) hate you? Loud music? Parties?
I think what you did with the LE officer was fine. Yes you can be a prick and it is your right to tell them to get lost, but with something like this it's often better to be polite (suffer the annoyance of giving your ID) and make a friend in the police officer.
poor_richard
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Standing up for one's rights is not "being a prick". One can do so in a polite manner, just as easily as one can do so in a rude manner.
Much too often these days, people are scorned for standing up for their rights. While it's important to do so in a civil manner, it is still important to do so. It is sick to scorn someone for standing up for their rights, as opposed to just criticizing/critiquing them for the manner in which they do so.
.38 Special
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Completion of thread descent into "anti-cop, pro-cop" squabling in 3,2,1...
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Something smells, all right, but it's not ammunition.
A couple of points.
If I were reloading ammo for personal use I would be clear on that point and not make a statement like "Yes, I manufacture ammo on the weekends." which implies that you are running a commercial business out of your home rather than reloading for personal use.....once you cross the personal/commercial line there are all kinds of other things they can throw at the wall in the hopes that one of them sticks....
ALWAYS know your state and local laws and be able to rattle the relevent ones off at the drop of a hat with CONFIDENCE.
I'm all for cooperating with Police 99.9% of the time BUT would NEVER invite them into the house.
As you did I would step out of the house to speak with the LEO and in this case I would have rattled off the local laws wrt propellent storage, excused myself, retrieved a small can of powder and demonstrated as you did OUTSIDE the house (ie don't invite Johnny Law in) that it does not smell.
That way you are seen as cooperating, you're being reasonable (and hopefully friendly) and you don't open yourself up to a search.....in doing so you CAN earn yourself a free pass should there ever be another interaction with the LEO in question because he/she may remember you as professional/courteous and generally speaking reasonable.
If I were reloading ammo for personal use I would be clear on that point and not make a statement like "Yes, I manufacture ammo on the weekends." which implies that you are running a commercial business out of your home rather than reloading for personal use.....once you cross the personal/commercial line there are all kinds of other things they can throw at the wall in the hopes that one of them sticks....
ALWAYS know your state and local laws and be able to rattle the relevent ones off at the drop of a hat with CONFIDENCE.
I'm all for cooperating with Police 99.9% of the time BUT would NEVER invite them into the house.
As you did I would step out of the house to speak with the LEO and in this case I would have rattled off the local laws wrt propellent storage, excused myself, retrieved a small can of powder and demonstrated as you did OUTSIDE the house (ie don't invite Johnny Law in) that it does not smell.
That way you are seen as cooperating, you're being reasonable (and hopefully friendly) and you don't open yourself up to a search.....in doing so you CAN earn yourself a free pass should there ever be another interaction with the LEO in question because he/she may remember you as professional/courteous and generally speaking reasonable.
Clarifying, one does not have to be out-and-out rude while denying entrance without a warrant. In fact, I would not be rude. I would politely deny the request, period.
Remember, once you, or any other person who lives in the house, gives permission for an LEO to enter, you can not retract that permission. That LEO, as well as any and all other LEOs that he or she now calls to assist, has permission to complete the task for which they were dispatched.
Edit to add an additional point of clarification, just in case. If this person has been a renter not a home owner, the facts do not change. The renter holds "possessory rights", meaning full rights (same as an owner) to privacy and protections. The landlord can not overrule the renter and give police permission to enter. I experienced this one about 12 years back, and ended up suing the landlord for the violation. I walked out of court, laughed all the way to the bank. When the check arrived, cashed it, and used the funds to buy myself a new firearm in celebration of the victory.
Doc2005
Remember, once you, or any other person who lives in the house, gives permission for an LEO to enter, you can not retract that permission. That LEO, as well as any and all other LEOs that he or she now calls to assist, has permission to complete the task for which they were dispatched.
Edit to add an additional point of clarification, just in case. If this person has been a renter not a home owner, the facts do not change. The renter holds "possessory rights", meaning full rights (same as an owner) to privacy and protections. The landlord can not overrule the renter and give police permission to enter. I experienced this one about 12 years back, and ended up suing the landlord for the violation. I walked out of court, laughed all the way to the bank. When the check arrived, cashed it, and used the funds to buy myself a new firearm in celebration of the victory.
Doc2005
joab
Member
It is too simplistic to label this as a cop bashing thread
Especially when none has occurred
The job of the police is to investigate crimes and apprehend criminals
If he is there as a result of a complaint of criminal activity he ain't there to get well digging prices
There are many laws that could be construed different ways by different people and you can never know what kind of person someone is just because he is a cop
As I have pointed out the OP did not know for sure if he was within the legal limit as to how much powder he could store at home
If he had been wrong it would be safe to assume that it would not have been through any criminal intent on his part and I am sure that his lawyer could have eventually plea bargained down to a lesser charge
But why expose yourself to prosecution for any of the things that just about all of us do on a daily basis that could be misconstrued as a crime when some is predisposed to see it that way.
Just sitting here I am committing at least three crimes
I have several rifles leaning against the wall in my living room with ammo for them on the coffee table and my minor son is coming through the gate
My dog does not have his collar on
I have an protected species in a cage outside and a venomous snake in a pillow case
All of these are prosecutable crimes if told the right way
JohnBT
Member
If the complaint was about making ammo, that doesn't limit the discussion to reloading. Maybe someone thought he was cooking up batches of primer mix for rimfire ammo. It's extremely volatile. Buildings have burned and people have died making it. Maybe they thought he was making black powder, another extremely dangerous hobby.
Reminds me of the day the County Sheriff stopped by my parents' house. They invited him in, gave him a cup of coffee and visited for a few minutes. Okay, he was my father's first cousin.
John
Reminds me of the day the County Sheriff stopped by my parents' house. They invited him in, gave him a cup of coffee and visited for a few minutes. Okay, he was my father's first cousin.
John
Kimber1911_06238
Member
the fact that the police were dispatched for this boggles my mind
And I'm glad you weren't rude to the officer, but you definitely didnt have to let him in.
And I'm glad you weren't rude to the officer, but you definitely didnt have to let him in.
plexreticle
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He wasn't looking for reloading equipment.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Police who are chasing down neighbor reported chemical smells are looking for meth labs.
Pure and simple.
Pure and simple.
Deanimator
Member
Never, EVER invite the police in unless YOU called them in the first place. Lots of bad things and very few good can come of it.
File a FOIA request for the ID of the "neighbor" if there was one. If there was, SUE them. If there wasn't, make as much trouble for the police as humanly possible.
I've been reloading since 1979 or so. Tens of thousands of rounds of pistol and rifle ammunition later, I've NEVER smelled ANYTHING during that process.
Somebody is LYING and they deserve to be PUNISHED for it.
File a FOIA request for the ID of the "neighbor" if there was one. If there was, SUE them. If there wasn't, make as much trouble for the police as humanly possible.
I've been reloading since 1979 or so. Tens of thousands of rounds of pistol and rifle ammunition later, I've NEVER smelled ANYTHING during that process.
Somebody is LYING and they deserve to be PUNISHED for it.
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