I got a visit from local police department

[Funderb]

Good thing I'm healthy and prefer long rifles!

 

[dralarms]

I had a visit from the local police once about me shooting my guns, We stood outside and talked for what seemed to be a while. I explained to him that I was on my own property, shooting into an area where no one is allowed or would go if they had any sense, and wasn't sure why in the world they bothered him with it. Turned out he was a 2A guy and I invited him in and showed him what I had been shooting which caused all the ruckus (a Keltec plr 16). He thought that thing was wild, I offered to let him shoot it but he had to get back to work. Any way after speaking with him for say 15 to 20 min I knew what kind of person I was dealing with and had no problems with inviting him into my home. I'm not saying I would have done it with anyone else if it was to arise again but he was a gunny .

I'm a pretty good judge of character and if in the first 5 min of being around you I get a bad feeling then you ain't getting squat other than name and if you want in my house go get your warrant if you think you have PC, cause NO you can't "look" around my house and no you can't search my car. Got a reason why you would want to then tell me what you are looking for and I'll tell you if I have it and if not I'll tell you that as well. I don't go around doing crap that will get you thrown in jail, might ride around with out a seat belt (wait, can't do that any more. My 06 Ram complains when I do that). I might fail to completely stop at a stop sign (pulled right out in front of a county cop just the other day), but I don't steal, take or sell drugs, don't have any pipe bombs or any of that other crap, I just like shooting my guns once in a while and want people to leave me alone.

The OP probably had the same experience as me, talked with the officer and found not an adversary but a kindred spirit.

 

[poor_richard]

And I would have to disagree with you, along with wondering why you chose to single me out

I suppose because I have often in the past, agreed with what you say about cop bashing.

I just took the comment at what I thought was face value that one shouldn’t assume that the officer is telling the truth. That doesn’t mean that I think he was lying. I didn’t take the comment to indicate that one should automatically assume that the officer was lying. I took is as advice merely to not make an assumption either way. I don’t consider everyone I meet to be a liar, however I don’t also assume they are all honest either. I give the benefit of the doubt, but trust is something I’m not so generous with as when I was younger.

The comment was meant to suggest that the officer should be assumed to be lying

I took it to suggest that one shouldn’t automatically assume the officer was telling the truth. That doesn’t mean to assume he is lying, it just means don’t make the assumption he’s telling the truth. I took it quite literally.

The fact that it has generated such bashing comments as

Police have been known to lie, and are actually encouraged to do so if they think it will aid an investigation

My understanding is that the courts have ruled that police can lie to suspect during an interrogation (or some such). I know that I’m unclear on this, but am I totally off base? If so, I certainly don’t mind you clearing things up for me.

Look, all I’m saying is, “I don’t think LEO (in general) are above misleading people they are investigating, be it intentionally, or unintentionally”. Is that “cop bashing”, and if so how?

In my defense, people lie (and/or are mistaken) all the time. There are bad, as well as good in law enforcement, just as there are in all walks of life. Police officers don’t automatically become angels once the put on the uniform and badge (although I think the do deserve a great amount of respect for doing so), and while there are probably a lot fewer bad apples in that particular bunch than there are good ones, that doesn’t mean we should ignore the bad ones. That isn’t to imply that we shouldn’t project their tarnished image on those officers who serve their community honorably.

And

Are you claiming that such a thing has never happened?

Ever heard of Kathryn Johnston?

I’ve seen what I consider some pretty disgusting comments in regards to LEO on this board since I’ve been here, but I honestly don’t understand how bringing up a documented, current event constitutes “cop bashing” just because it throws a small number of them in a bad light. I am however, willing to accept that, “just because I don’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there”. So, you say its cop bashing. Mind telling why it’s cop bashing? (Nothing implied here, sometimes a second point of view is good).

That said, since this may be considered as veering off topic, I welcome you to continue this conversation via PM if you so chose. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want a response in the thread, just trying to leave an option open.

 

[David904]

I like cops. My best friend is a cop. I have several friends who are involved in law enforcement at one level or another. I appreciate the service that they provide and respect the sacrifices that they make. And make them they do... Though I wouldn't give you two cents for some jerks I've run across who have badges.

That being said, I would never let a cop into my home or vehicle on official business without a warrant. Period. All stop.

That doesn't mean that I will be rude in my denial of entry. As a matter of fact, I would probably shift gears from being inquisitive to politely formal. I would explain myself calmly and without rancor. The cop is just doing his or her job. There really is no need to escalate a situation by being unduly nasty.

I got pulled over one night in Tallahassee and was asked if I would let the officers look through my car. I said, "Nope."

They seemed a little taken aback and asked if there was any reason I wouldn't let them search my vehicle. I politely responded that if they had PC to search my car, they wouldn't be asking my permission in the first place. Secondly, I simply didn't feel like having strangers rifling through my belongings on official business. It would make me feel violated. And, since I have a 4th amendment right to prevent that from happening, I'm going to exercise it.

I said all this politely and firmly. And the police replied, "OK... Have a nice night. Drive safely." I wished them a safe shift and off I went.

And no... I didn't get out of my ticket. I deserved it as I was something like 6 or seven months past my registration expiration. It wasn't a steep fine anyway. Though I ended up having to shell out a few bucks for the city, it was a pleasant and mutually respectful interaction.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Vampires are a good analogy.

The definition of a cop's job is to find something, anything, actionable toward an arrest or citation.

Why would you knowingly allow someone who's very job is to initiate negative consequences on you, into your home, and risk some petty little thing being mistaken for being illicit or illegal?

 

[joab]

Look, all I’m saying is, “I don’t think LEO (in general) are above misleading people they are investigating, be it intentionally, or unintentionally”. Is that “cop bashing”, and if so how?

No it isn't cop bashing and my comments to you were misdirected and out of line
You are correct
Cops do and can lie during the course of an investigation

 

[poor_richard]

Thanks joab,

I appreciate your input, and don't mind being "set straight" if required.

 

[Citroen]

Interesting thread. When I lived in Charleston, SC the air often had a "smell"; I guess some air quality issues might apply but local laws? I doubt it. I was not aware that creating a "funny smell" in itself was illegal, even in California, but maybe so.

The situation described is, to me, rather strange. If the report was a "funny smell" then the police might suspect a meth lab but a single officer response would be unusual - and a uniformed officer at that.

If the complaint was "someone making ammunition", unless it was a commercial operation in a residentially zoned neighborhood would it be illegal?

Interaction with police officers, like the officers themselves, is always on a case by case basis. On the few occasions that I have had an officer visit, I always invited them in; sometimes for a cup of coffee if the weather was cold.

Over the years, I am sure things have changed, but when I was doing it we were NOT out there seeking to find some sort of violation or to arrest every citizen we encountered. In fact, we were told that if we were making a stop for a traffic violation, to stop the vehicle as soon as it was safe to do so and to NOT follow the car for miles, "since everyone will break the law if you follow them long enough".

I would not allow BATF into my home, but our local police officers are welcome. Some of them know I have a gun or two and several of them know that I shoot some type of competition and reload my ammunition. Some of them have even shot with me. I've even been invited to shoot automatic weapons with some officers, so I might have a different opinion that those with a less than desireable experience in their background.

I would second the idea that you treat the officer like he treats you; nice and civil = nice and civil back. No reason to make their life any harder nor to alienate a possible friend. But then, I am a kinder and gentler now.

John
Charlotte, NC

 

[Cosmoline]

The "smell" report was your neighbor trying to set you up as running a meth lab.

I don't know if that was the neighbor's idea but I'm willing to bet that's what the officer was "sniffing" for.

 

[ilbob]

I've been reloading since 1979 or so. Tens of thousands of rounds of pistol and rifle ammunition later, I've NEVER smelled ANYTHING during that process.

+1

 

[ilbob]

Kim, you're assuming that there was in fact a complaint made by his neighbor and the cop didn't make up that claim out of whole cloth.

Might be interesting to find out if indeed there was a complaint made. I would go with the FOIA request and see if the cop was or was not lying.

 

[Deavis]

Except that as you acknowledged, he didn't (and still doesn't) know how much powder he can legally have in his house. What if it was too much, and the cop arrested him for it? Now what? What if the cop spotted something else that scrat didn't know was illegal? Or he happened to leave the drain cleaner out and the cop convinced himself that scrat was cooking meth?

I'll only quote this because every other variation has already been seen. This is exactly what I mean by useless Internet flexing. The OP let him in the house. The OP was not clear on the laws. If the cop had seen the OP had too much powder, he WOULD have arrested him or issued a citation depending on the law broken. Are you saying that the LEO would be wrong for citing the OP for breaking the law? It is your job to know the law, if you break it you will be punished if caught. The Op wasn't, the cop left, end of story. Wow, like 98% of interactions with cops, no shots fired, nobody killed, and no black helicopters showed up. Wow, what a shock.

As far as the cop spotting something else illegal, well that would have meant that the OP was doing something illegal. If Scrat had some drain cleaner out and the cop happened to see all the other components laying around to cook and bag meth, then we wouldn't even be having this post. Seeing drain cleaner out and a plunger next to a sink is not, despite what the tin foil reflections tell you, cause an ordinary LEO to morph into Super Jack Boot Man, who then breaks Scrat's neck, plants evidence, shoots himself, and eats Scrat's first born child while waiting for backup. Now, seeing drain cleaner along with plastic covering the windows, scales, tubing, various pots out, jugs of chemicals, a stack of cold pills, some propane tanks, flasks of all types, stacks of batteries, and the reak of solvents might just tip off old Johnny Law.

Once again, I'll say it again. The OP let the officer in. The officer did his job and was professional. The OP should commend him for it, correct his lack of knowledge to assure he is operating within the law, forward the regulations he finds to the PD for clarification, and the Internet Weight Pile Associates can quit flexing their amazing "WhatIdadone Muscle" over nothing. Good interaction, just like many others carried out everyday by the guys trying to do their job and go home.

I'm sure nobody here would have objected if the officer had found out that that OP was actually a meth cook or was making bombs for the next jihad. Heck, then it would have been good police followup on a citizen complaint and an idiot who let him in his house.

 

[Deavis]

I forgot, in case you were wondering how to find the information, check with your city or county. For instance, Austin uses the 2003 edition of the International Fire Code with some changes. They are in Title 25 of the Austin City Code, Article 7. 2 minutes navigating the city page led me here and here.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/fire/firecode2.htm

http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway....fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:austin_tx$anc=

and even Texas discusses it (they give power to the county/city)

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/index.htm

I'm sure the same information is available to you.

 

[Dallas239]

I'll only quote this because every other variation has already been seen. This is exactly what I mean by useless Internet flexing. The OP let him in the house. The OP was not clear on the laws. If the cop had seen the OP had too much powder, he WOULD have arrested him or issued a citation depending on the law broken. Are you saying that the LEO would be wrong for citing the OP for breaking the law?

Of course not. Which is precisely why you shouldn't let him into your house!

It is your job to know the law, if you break it you will be punished if caught.

How very authoritarian of you. Do you volunteer to have your house searched from time to time, just to make sure that if you break the law you will be caught and punished? If not, why not? Perhaps we should just put telescreens on our homes that allow our activites to be montiored 24/7. After all, if we are doing something wrong, we should be caught and punished.

You didn't read anything from me about JBTs or cops planting evidence. But it occurs to me that the police are not judges, jurors, nor prosecutors. It's not their job to know all the details of what is and isn't illegal. And it isn't their job to know all the relevant facts of whatever they think it is that might have occured.

Fortunately, we don't live in the world of Judge Dredd just yet, and people are arrested everyday even though most of the time they will never be convicted by a jury of the crime they are arrested for. And it has nothing to do with corrupt cops or anything else of the sort. Police, prosecutors, grand juries, etc. can all misaprehend the law or the facts, or simply believe that they know enough to know that they want to find out what they don't know. And in our system, only a jury can can determine that you are guilty of a criminal act, and why would you volunteer to go though that?

What if the voluntary search had only led to being arrested and charges dropped? Or going in front of the grand jury and being no-billed. Or worse yet, being charged and acquitted by a jury. Or worse still, having a conviction thrown out by a court of appeals. Would that be a better result than "useless Internet flexing?" Of course that didn't happen in this situation, (if it had the OP wouldn't have been around to post) but it happens every day.

But you are telling us we don't have to worry about any of these perfectly normal, non-cop-bashing or JBT related things that happen daily in every single jurisdiction accross the country. So I am sure that if you are ever arrested for anything, you won't avail yourself of your 5th or 6th amendment rights, and you'll save us all some money by simply pleading guilty to whatever you are charged with.

 

[SuperNaut]

Deavis, you are correct that on the intertubes it is wise to automatically assume that the advice comes from someone who has no direct experience on a particular topic.

Unfortunately this also makes your risk of selection bias quite high.

 

[.38 Special]

I was not aware that creating a "funny smell" in itself was illegal, even in California, but maybe so.

Try lighting a cigarette in pretty much any public place here.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Meth labs are not nice things to have around. I am not a LEO but meth labs are something that makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up too. Those guys are CRAZY. If I was investigating a possible meth lab I would be relieved to find out it was just some guy making ammo.

 

[buck00]

Officer: Can you come outside?

You: No, I'm eating. Come back when you have a warrant. Have a nice evening.

Amen!

 

[Azretired]

This is my first post here. I've been lurking for quite awhile and this thread convinced me to join.

I am a recently retired police officer and spent 18 of my 25 years in law enforcement in a large "bedroom" community that is subburb of a large southwestern city. I was not unusual at all for us to respond to BS noise, smell and disturbance complaints. But once dispatched we had to check them out. Generally the complaint is BS is people cooperate we can clear it quickly.

Yes, you have a 4th Amendment right not to let us in your house without PC or a warrant. Yes, I have arrested people on charges that are totally unrelated to why I was there. For example, loud music call results in arrest for growing marijuana because I could see it in plain view when the front door was opened! Some people are just stupid.

Cops may noy be your friends, but we are certainly noy your enemy either. Yes, we can lie during an investigation. However, WE CANNOT LIE ABOUT THE FACTS OF THE CASE. Parents lie , teachers lie, doctors lie, we all lie at times because it is necessary.

I think the guy who started this thread did the right thing and made a friend of a cop. If a report was filed the complainant should be listed.

Again, a great site.

 

[joab]

How many here really believe that the cop showed up alone to investigate a meth lab
It's obvious that he knew that there were guns in the house or at least the very very strong possibility

Also how many really believe that he would make up a complaint about reloading smells
OIf so why would he

Again if he believed there was a crime going on worthy of this deception why would he show up alone

These days any on site investigation into drug trafficking where it is known that the suspect is or possibly is armed begins with a big steel cylinder going through your door

 

[poor_richard]

How many here really believe that the cop showed up alone to investigate a meth lab
It's obvious that he knew that there were guns in the house or at least the very very strong possibility

Also how many really believe that he would make up a complaint about reloading smells
OIf so why would he

Again if he believed there was a crime going on worthy of this deception why would he show up alone

These days any on site investigation into drug trafficking where it is known that the suspect is or possibly is armed begins with a big steel cylinder going through your door

I would agree with that. I don't think it was a matter of the individual officer making up a story to get a search. It doesn't sound like anything more that a friendly investigation by the officer, on a complaint call.

 

[Deanimator]

How many here really believe that the cop showed up alone to investigate a meth lab

It doesn't matter what anybody BELIEVES.

Without the FOIA request, it's all just speculation.

Criminals AND police do stupid things all of the time, like trying to shoot a snake out of a tree with a handgun. A child died behind that little stunt.

 

[Deanimator]

These days any on site investigation into drug trafficking where it is known that the suspect is or possibly is armed begins with a big steel cylinder going through your door

Isn't that exactly what happened at Kathryn Johnston's place?

And wasn't that the result of a series of untruths?

And weren't the only drugs found there planted by police in the first place?

 

[madmattmd]

Regarding the legal limit on residential storage for gun powder, I would contact your local fire department or reloading supplies dealer. There is a Federal limit, but most states make their own rules. For instance, in Maryland, where I live, the limit is ten pounds. Of that, you can legally store a maximum of five pounds of smokeless and five pounds of black powder. The ten pound limit is not cumulative. It’s a stupid pain for those of us reloaders with a need for one pound or less of black powder, but that’s the way it’s structured. I plan on seeking to have it changed to ten pounds cumulative.

You might also inquire as to whether there are any local regulations regarding the actual storage conditions for powder, i.e., open shelving, in a sealed “fire-proof” container, etc. Who knows what your local government has come up with to protect the general public.

On the visit by the LEO, I’ve never had any qualms about allowing an officer into my home. Based upon some comments here though, I’ll probably re-think that approach. Too bad, as I don’t “think” I have anything to hide.

Matt

 

[rocket lad]

Too bad, as I don’t “think” I have anything to hide.

Doesn't matter - you have a right to privacy in your own home, regardless of whether you have something to hide or not. If they have PC, they get a warrant; 'nuff said.