I think I'm about 165 degrees into a 180 degree turn

'm still absolutely convinced that if I leave it unsecured firearm in my car I'm much more likely to have it stolen than I am to use it to defend myself
This is the ticket. Stock photo of what I use. It's in the bottom console, underneath the top fold-down console (in up position pictured). 12-gauge steel, supposed to be drill-resistant. For a long gun, I use a Pelican Vault with two locks, chained to the underside of the extended cab fold-up rear seats. Not optimum but would require some time and tools to get it out.
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I'm waiting for your detailed instructions on how one accomplishes that when one rolls up on a gunfight. Are you going to ask the shooter to stop shooting and show you a carry permit? There is a huge difference between arriving on the scene after the action has stopped and arriving when the shooting is in progress. This is a sticky problem and blanket statements like that don't contribute to solving it.
An officer must assess the situation before using deadly force in a reckless manner and shooting an innocent person that's exercising his/her right to self-defense.

This is a civil rights issue, and it will become a federal civil rights problem for cops if they keep shooting innocent people who are lawfully exercising their right to self-defense. These aren't "accidental" shootings. These are cops that aren't taking the time to assess the situation. "I didn't know" or "I thought" aren't legal excuses.

Edited to add:

Rule 4 applies - Be sure of your target. That includes identifying a potential target as friend or foe, and not negligently assuming that a citizen armed with a gun is the bad guy.

It's no different that somebody shooting at a shadowy figure in the dark and then finding out afterwards it's a loved one.

It's reckless and it's negligence.
 
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An officer must assess the situation before using deadly force in a reckless manner and shooting an innocent person that's exercising his/her right to self-defense
Again you avoid answering how this is accomplished when an officer arrives at a shooting in progress. I suppose you think that the officer should run into the middle of a gunfight and yell TIME OUT?
This is a civil rights issue, and it will become a federal civil rights problem for cops if they keep shooting innocent people who are lawfully exercising their right to self-defense. These aren't "accidental" shootings. These are cops that aren't taking the time to assess the situation. "I didn't know" or "I thought" aren't legal excuses.
Again you fail to say exactly how you do this. Especially when doctrine is to “hunt the shooter and stop the shooting”.

There will also be lawsuits when the police response goes back to calling in SWAT and doing a slow meticulous clearing of the area.

You can’t have it both ways, you either respond the way it’s done now and end the situation as quickly as possible or you do a slow deliberate clearing of the scene.

As for a federal civil rights suit, so far the courts haven’t been receptive to that. A few years back an off duty St Louis Metropolitan Police officer was shot by on duty officers responding to a shots fired call. He sued, arguing that he was shot because he was black. That suit went nowhere.

Everyone would like to have some sure way to sort out the good guys from the bad guys in these situations. As of yet there is no way to do that.

Saying that the police have to stop shooting armed citizens without giving specific guidance on how they should tell the good guy from the bad guy does nothing to solve the problem. I don’t know where you would find the statistics or if they even exist but I would wager the number of off duty and plainclothes officers shot by other officers responding to a shots fired or active shooter call is just as high or even higher than the number of private citizens mistakenly shot in those situations. The big reason is that the number of private citizens who actually carry everywhere is much smaller than the number of permit holders. The chances of an off duty officer responding to gunshots are higher then the chances of an armed citizen responding or engaging the shooter.

What is wrong with not having a visible firearm when first responders arrive?
 
Again you avoid answering how this is accomplished when an officer arrives at a shooting in progress. I suppose you think that the officer should run into the middle of a gunfight and yell TIME OUT?

Assess based on the armed person's actions instead of jumping to conclusions and immediately engaging that person with gunfire.

The Second Amendment is a civil right. Using a gun in public for self-defense is a right protected by the U.S. Constitution. That is the civil right being violated, not for being black.
 
Assess based on the armed person's actions instead of jumping to conclusions and immediately engaging that person with gunfire.
That's pretty easy to say from the cover of your monitor. What makes you think that actions are never assessed. I shouldn't have to point out the often split second time involved in making these decisions.
The Second Amendment is a civil right. Using a gun in public for self-defense is a right protected by the U.S. Constitution. That is the civil right being violated, not for being black.
Show me where a federal court has awarded damages on a Bivens claim after a mistaken shooting.
 
That's pretty easy to say from the cover of your monitor. What makes you think that actions are never assessed. I shouldn't have to point out the often split second time involved in making these decisions.
Show me where a federal court has awarded damages on a Bivens claim after a mistaken shooting.
It shouldn't be a split decision.

Police shooting someone is a seizure under the 4th amendment. It has to be a reasonable seizure.
 
The Constitution is the law of the land.
Yes, but nowhere in it is self defense mentioned. SCOTUS rulings RE: the right to bear arms mention the natural right of self preservation, buth neither they nor the Constiuiton nor any Federal statues or rulings define or govern self defense. That comes from stat law.

The Constituiton guarantees the right to bear arms, but it says nothing about their use,

All states provide for lawful self defense., but it is not within the scope of Federal law.
 
It shouldn't be a split decision.
I'm glad you are gifted with the ability to approach an armed person who might or might not be a bad guy and know instantly that he's a good guy when he turns towards you with a gun in his hand. Most mere mortals don't have that ability.

Again I ask you to show me where any court has ruled that shooting a "good guy" by mistake during an armed encounter is a taking under the 4th Amendment. Maybe it would be more sporting to let the guy get a shot off first that way his intentions will be known for sure.
 
Yes, but nowhere in it is self defense mentioned. SCOTUS rulings RE: the right to bear arms mention the natural right of self preservation, buth neither they nor the Constiuiton nor any Federal statues or rulings define or govern self defense. That comes from stat law.

The Constituiton guarantees the right to bear arms, but it says nothing about their use,

All states provide for lawful self defense., but it is not within the scope of Federal law.
Both Heller and Bruen dealt with our right to lawfully "bear" arms for self-defense.

State laws simply offer the "defense" of lawful use of force and justifiable homicide.
 
I'm glad you are gifted with the ability to approach an armed person who might or might not be a bad guy and know instantly that he's a good guy when he turns towards you with a gun in his hand. Most mere mortals don't have that ability.

Again I ask you to show me where any court has ruled that shooting a "good guy" by mistake during an armed encounter is a taking under the 4th Amendment. Maybe it would be more sporting to let the guy get a shot off first that way his intentions will be known for sure.
Why is a police officer approaching?

Why isn't a police officer first taking a moment in attempt to understand what's going on instead of wrongfully jumping to conclusions and shooting a citizen that's lawfully bearing his or her gun in self-defense?

Ummm... whenever police shoot anybody, for reasons other than self-defense, it's a "seizure" according to Constitutional law.
 
Both Heller and Bruen dealt with our right to lawfully "bear" arms for self-defense.
What part of Heller, McDonald or Bruen states that if you are mistakenly shot by the police during a response to a shooting or an active shooter that it is an unlawful taking under the 4th amendment? Please post the cite from any of those decisions.

Plenty of police officers have been charged civilly and criminally for unlawful and accidental shootings resulting from an enforcement action. To my knowledge no officer anywhere has ever been sued or charged for shooting the wrong person while responding to an active shooter.
Why is a police officer approaching?
Because there was a complaint of an active shooter. In case you don't know, we pay the police to respond to those things.

Ummm... whenever police shoot anybody, for reasons other than self-defense, it's a "seizure" according to Constitutional law.
Show me the cite in any of those cases that says it's an illegal taking while responding to an active shooter? You can't because it's not there and you know it's not there. Federal and state law has always recognized that there will be wrong decisions made in encounters like that and that's why the standard is what the shooter reasonably believed at the time he pressed the trigger. This standard applies to both the police and private citizens and unlike your crazy assertion that Heller and Bruen grant you some kind of right not to be mistakenly shot in an armed encounter with the police, there is tons of case law on only being judged by what a reasonable man would have done knowing only what the shooter knew when he made the decision to shoot.
 
Heller and Bruen don't address that.

Previous SCOTUS decisions (Torres v. Madrid) have determined that police shootings, other than self-defense, are a seizure of that person under the 4th Amendment. Seizures are either reasonable or unreasonable. Seizing (shooting) a person for a lawful act (bearing a gun in self-defense) is unreasonable and a civil rights violation, if the officer is reckless or negligent.
 
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Heller and Bruen don't address that.

Previous SCOTUS decisions (Torres v. Madrid) have determined that police shootings, other than self-defense, are a seizure of that person under the 4th Amendment. Seizures are either reasonable or unreasonable. Seizing (shooting) a person for a lawful act (bearing a gun in self-defense) is unreasonable and a civil rights violation, if the officer is reckless or negligent.
It's always been that way. My point is that you are claiming that Heller and Bruen established that it was a 4th amendment violation and Heller and Bruen do not address that. And Heller and Bruen also did not establish a right to self defense. That right has always been there. Heller and Bruen established that you have the right to possess and carry a firearm for the purposes of self defense although the carry part and the possession of certain firearms is still being litigated.
 
I’m in the emergency room bleeding to death after I exercised my constitutional right and the police shot me because all they saw was me shooting at someone else. But hey, as long as I think it was a violation of my 4th amendment rights I will be fine.
 
Heller and Bruen address the right to bear for the purpose of self-defense. This is a 2nd Amendment issue.

The act of police shooting a person lawfully bearing his or her gun in self-defense is a 4th Amendment issue.

I apologize for confusing you with the way I presented my argument.
 
I’m in the emergency room bleeding to death after I exercised my constitutional right and the police shot me because all they saw was me shooting at someone else. But hey, as long as I think it was a violation of my 4th amendment rights I will be fine.
Did the officer(s) that shot you even consider that you were acting lawfully, given that private citizens have the right to bear (carry and use) a gun in self-defense in public? If not, then the officer, the agency, and the state are liable for violating your civil rights.

This is a training issue for police.
 
These aren't "accidental" shootings. These are cops that aren't taking the time to assess the situation. "
There has been a rather distressing trend over the past couple of decades -- actually, even longer -- where officers have shot people taking cell phones or wallets out of pockets, fired shots at subjects holding what appear to be weapons when video later reveals that there was no immediate danger to the officers, further, it's clear, that many of these incidents occurred without officers employing any verbal orders. The more amped up the officers are, the quicker to guns and the less likely clear verbal commands are given.

Even in the 1980s, in the SoCal city near which I lived and worked, we joked about the SDPD's use of verbal directives: BANG BANG BANG -pause - "Sir, drop the weapon!"

Bottom line, it's a training issue, but there are so many officers out there with little or no experience handling a situation where they respond to a call and a weapon is present, that shots are fired before even a split-second assessment is made. The prevailing attitude is, "If I think I see a weapon in hand, I am shooting." I've seen it.

But the real fact is, you can't know what this is like until you respond to a violent incident.

There are still cops getting killed because they did not read a situation correctly, or quickly enough, and put themselves in a position to be shot before they could deploy their own sidearms. So this knowledge is in the front of your mind when you are out there in the streets.

The fact that so many lawyers are so ready to step in and litigate after all these tragedies occur is a seriously sad commentary on our society.
 
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But the real fact is, you can't know what this is like until you respond to a violent incident.

Exactly right. As Jeff White stated, the police cannot yell, “time out!” and ask who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy. All the training in the world will not change this. Knowing you were right is little consolation when you have to spend the rest of your life carrying around a bag of your own poo.

The Constitution gives one the right to keep and bear arms. It does not say you do so without risk.

Fortunately, this is a mostly academic discussion. The chances of using your firearm are slim. The likelihood that you will still be involved in a shootout when the police arrive are even lower.
 
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I'm glad you are gifted with the ability to approach an armed person who might or might not be a bad guy and know instantly that he's a good guy when he turns towards you with a gun in his hand. Most mere mortals don't have that ability.

Again I ask you to show me where any court has ruled that shooting a "good guy" by mistake during an armed encounter is a taking under the 4th Amendment. Maybe it would be more sporting to let the guy get a shot off first that way his intentions will be known for sure.

What we are seeing lately is cops shooting armed folks without issuing a Warning or Identifying themselves.

How does a cop issue a warning?

"Police drop the gun!!!"

Is this no longer taught in Police Academies?
 
A gun locked in the vehicle is better than no gun.
My wifes SUV/Mom wagon has a nice spot for my AR in the back I use when traveling across the country - multiple states. My truck extended cab has a spot under the fold up seats I can lock down a rifle or three.
We both have pistols in the front at all times.
We live out west and usually stay away from CA. lol
 
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