I thought IDPA was about..

[Bovice]

Let me phrase it this way. How popular is the G34 with 125PF ammo as a defensive setup?

Hotter SD ammo shoots much differently. Therefore in the true spirit of IDPA, as a practical sport based on defense, isn't it counter intuitive to be using soft ammo?

 

[jmorris]

Quote: Originally Posted by cz223 If you are carrying a 9mm instead of a 40 S&W, and aren't an 11 year old girl or a feeble person, you are an IDIOT.

Hi.

Don't worry Hoser he also said he would carry a single action revolver.

 

[jmorris]

Therefore in the true spirit of IDPA, as a practical sport based on defense, isn't it counter intuitive to be using soft ammo?

As much is it is counter intutive to only load 10 rounds in a mag that holds 17 or running around with an empty gun waiting until you get somewhere to reload or retaining an empty mag. "based on" doesn't really mean much to me. I don't think they are to concerned with "gamers" either, heck they just lowered the PF in SSR to 105.

 

[Bovice]

Aren't you technically supposed to reload from cover if it is available? Breaking cover without finishing your reload is against the rules of the game, I think.

It's really not debatable that power factor plays a role in the "gaming" circle. Why would they do it otherwise, if it made no difference? It hampers reliability with stock springs. It's within the rules, yes, but not practical or defensive minded. That's why I think it gets away from the true meaning behind the sport. It should be changed to require shooters to achieve a PF commonly found in the lowest common denominator's self defense loading. Most 9mm would therefore be in the realm of 145-150 from a full size pistol.

I don't care about winning or shooting rounds with just enough power to dent cardboard. I just hate to see IDPA become silly. I have no problem with 9mm, but I would never download it for any reason. Buy a 9mm, shoot 9mm. Buy a .45, shoot .45. Use what you're going to use to it's potential, is my philosophy.

I consider the 10 round rule much less important. Some states require people to limit capacity to 10 in the magazine.

 

[jmorris]

I don't care about winning

That pretty much sums it up. If winning was a goal of yours, your opnion on the loads you use would change.

And yes you have to reload from cover, run dry in the open and you must wait until you get behind cover to begin a reload. So you can't eject the empty or draw a fresh mag from the pouch until you are behind cover. I think in a SD situation I wouldn't wait that long; however, I fully understand its just a game with rules.

 

[Uncle Richard]

Treat IDPA in 2 ways......

1) A competition
2) Fun and develope concealed carry skills


I use the same holster and gun in IDPA as I do for concealed carry. However, there is a little competition amoung us friends. Typically, they have a little edge because they use a smaller caliber (9mm) and non-stock triggers. If I did't shoot a stock 40sw, Id be faster then them. Finally started being top of my class, ESP Marksman. My goal is to have fun and be profecient at what I use so that its all muscle memory.

If you don't have fun, you probably won't stick with it.

 

[MrBorland]

If you carry what you use, that's not really gaming. You're missing my point.

Yet, if we met at a match, you'd think "gamer". My point was that you've delineated what's "carry" and what's "gamer" gear for yourself, but it doesn't necessarily make it so.

How popular is the G34 with 125PF ammo as a defensive setup?

Hotter SD ammo shoots much differently.

I don't care about winning or shooting rounds with just enough power to dent cardboard.

Unless you've chrono'd their ammo, you're only assuming what PF anyone's running. Sound, muzzle flip and splits aren't very reliable criteria, since, in the hands of good shooters with good loads, they can really fool you.




Look, folks, the more proficiency one has, the better. Even if he's not trained as a lifeguard, if his canoe tips over, Michael Phelps has a better chance of making it to shore than most.

Taking a general "I'm only interested in real-world relevancy" approach to shooting is a slippery slope - get caught up in it, and many of the competitive venues that help your shooting skills seem so very...umm...jejune. So, while you only do what you deem relevant, you sorely lack the general accuracy, speed or gun handling proficiency of those competitive shooters you poo poo. More importantly, you may very well even lack the general accuracy, speed or gun handling proficiency to survive an actual encounter. Kind of ironic, in a sad kind of way.

 

[mgmorden]

It should be changed to require shooters to achieve a PF commonly found in the lowest common denominator's self defense loading. Most 9mm would therefore be in the realm of 145-150 from a full size pistol.

Ok, here's where you hit a big snag: how many people are realistically going to go out and shoot a 75-100 round match with self-defense loads? You're talking about nearly $100 in ammo costs per match.

Sure the handloaders can make the powerfactor without worrying about it, but not everyone shoots handloads. Most people who shoot factory ammo just due to cost are going to be shooting whatever budget target ammo they can find, and some of that ammo already has trouble making the power floor. Raising it even more would exclude the vast majority of factory target rounds.

In the end, you have just accept that its a game. A game has rules. In any game you will have people that care about winning, and people who care about winning will play right up to the boundary of the rules. If you can't live with that, then you're not the type of person that will enjoy playing a game. Ergo, IDPA probably isn't something you'll enjoy.

 

[Sam1911]

Most people who shoot factory ammo just due to cost are going to be shooting whatever budget target ammo they can find, and some of that ammo already has trouble making the power floor. Raising it even more would exclude the vast majority of factory target rounds.

It was mentioned that the power floor for revolvers had been lowered to 105. The reason was not that handloaders complained. The reason was that most shooters in SSR category were shooting .38 Special -- perhaps the most venerable and long-standing respected self-defense cartridge of all time. But VERY little ammo that is available made the acceptable power floor of 125! Folks were having to go to "+P" ammo to be able to compete! So IDPA adapted to the ammo that is commonly available.

Now, telling folks they aren't adequately defended with a .38 Spc. is going to get you laughed at -- and most of those guns are 6-shooters.

Now, most 9mm loadings will blow past a 105 power-factor load like its standing still. But who'd carry one of those for defense?

 

[jmorris]

Ok, here's where you hit a big snag: how many people are realistically going to go out and shoot a 75-100 round match with self-defense loads?

Kind of funny but my USPSA (the gamers game)"major" 9mm loads are hotter than any factory 9mm loads, running just shy of 170PF.

 

[Sam1911]

Heh. My old .44 Spc. load -- that I shot in SSR -- was about 215. Shot tons of those before I decided that I was just being silly.

 

[MrBorland]

It was mentioned that the power floor for revolvers had been lowered to 105. The reason was not that handloaders complained. The reason was that most shooters in SSR category were shooting .38 Special...But VERY little ammo that is available made the acceptable power floor of 125! Folks were having to go to "+P" ammo to be able to compete!

+1. And just because the SSR PF floor has officially been lowered to 105 doesn't mean that's what's actually being run. The SSR shooters I know and who roll their own .38s (myself included), still run around the old PF. You'd think über lite gamer loads would be the rule, but IME, they aren't. The trade-offs, such as botched reloads from dirtier ammo & chambers (pressure too low for complete burn), and less margin on steel (Rule #1 for running a revolver: Don't miss steel!!) just aren't worth the small potential benefit.

 

[waktasz]

A very wise old gentlemen who attends most of the same local matches I do once said a very important line: "If they keep score, then it's a game.".

Yes, it does have some different ideas behind it, but IDPA (and USPSA, and Steel Challenge, etc) is a game. In any game you will have people who play just to have fun and people who play to win. There will be those who don't care about the score and those that do. Each individual competitor is absolutely free to choose which of those two types they'll be, but regardless of your choice, you have to respect the other faction and let them play the way they want. That comes with competing in any sport.

It honestly sounds like you just aren't comfortable with the idea of competition shooting (regardless of your past "exploits"). You'd probably do better doing some self defense training classes and/or exercises.

I will say though that Sam1911 does have a very valid point, and competition shooting does a lot to show what will work and what won't in real scenarios. Way back when "defensive" shooting was generally taught as a 1-handed "speed crouch" style. To a large degree it was competition shooting that showed that the more modern two-handed form is faster and more accurate. I'm sure initially though there was some cane waving and accusations about "gaming" though .

I'm not that old!

 

[ScottS]

Rant, rant, rant.

For those of you who don't to read the whole screed, I will summarize:

I shoot a lot, and if you don't believe everything I do, you're an IDIOT.

Got it, thanks.

 

[moto_stevo]

I had to laugh a little bit. I just started shooting IDPA and use my old S&W 915. I shot the Colorado state championship last month (and had a great time). On one of the stages the scenario had your wife held hostage... After shooting the first assailant( a steel target ), it triggered a popper that leaned out from behind your wife for about 1 second. In the spirit of the game I did manage to hit the popper with two clean shots to the chest and took zero penalties on the stage. The truly fast guys in my squad just shot the wife in the head... The penalty acquired was worth the time savings. You could tell who the serious gamers were.

 

[Sam1911]

The truly fast guys in my squad just shot the wife in the head... The penalty acquired was worth the time savings. You could tell who the serious gamers were.

Hmm...if I had set that up, such antics would be a FTDR penalty. A bad one to have to give out, and I'd really want to avoid putting on a stage that had such an obvious opportunity for a tactic like that so obviously at odds with the spirit of the sport.

 

[ny32182]

I would have to see the rest of the stage design to buy shooting a NT as a time saver. even without the ftdr.

 

[Bovice]

I don't know of any commonly available 9mm FMJ ammo that won't hit the 130s for power factor.

No excuses for shooting sub-power for your caliber.

 

[Smokin Gator]

"I would have to see the rest of the stage design to buy shooting a NT as a time saver. even without the ftdr."

I'll second that. Unless it took the threat target 4 or 5 seconds to swing out after being activated I don't see how the math would work out for it to be an advantage to shoot the hostage target. Mark

 

[jmorris]

The truly fast guys in my squad just shot the wife in the head... The penalty acquired was worth the time savings.

I'll bet the truly fast guys didn't do that or there were some pretty slow "fast guys" there (with a 1 second presentation, even if your splits are only .2 seconds that still gives you enough time for 5 shots or plenty of time for 2 perfectly aimed ones for sure). A miss on a target is 2.5 seconds. There would be no FTN on the target used as you describe. So even if you hit zeros with both shots going through the NT, you are right back where you started. Hit a couple of 1s and your 1 second slower than if you just shot the berm.

 

[Nuclear]

I started shooting IDPA, but it just got to be too much. It took hours of hanging around (not counting set up. pasting and clean up) in hot weather, shooting a gun I would not conceal carry from a holster I would not conceal carry in a position I did not conceal carry at, with rules that I would not follow in a real shooting (no reloading until behind cover and retaining partial magazines when I had spares, for example) while getting yelled at by RO's for things that weren't safety violations (like retaining the unfired round while safing my gun). The rules banning lasers, micro red dots, and ghost rings were just ignorant, as they are used every day on defensive pistols, and if they don't work, allowing them in competition would illustrate that to everyone. Once I realized it was just a game, I found more productive uses for my time and money.

But if you like the game, then more power to you.

 

[jmorris]

Once I realized it was just a game, I found more productive uses for my time and money.

I (am forced to) do a lot of stuff playing the game that I would only do while playing the game due to rules I don't agree with. So I have to ask, what have you come up with?

 

[David E]

Hmm...if I had set that up, such antics would be a FTDR penalty.

Pray tell, how would you determine "such antics" from the truly errant shot?

Regardless, I have a hard time imagining an IDPA stage where purposefully hitting a no-shoot is worth doing.

 

[Sam1911]

How? It would be a judgment call made by the SO on the spot, of course, but I'd be quite likely to back them up if they did so. One way would be having the shooter actually SAY that's what they were plainning which, as strange as it may sound, shooters have done in the past.

IMHO, it would also have to equate to an acutal advantage to the shooter, which as others have pointed out, is pretty questionable.

 

[jmorris]

My point was that you've delineated what's "carry" and what's "gamer" gear for yourself, but it doesn't necessarily make it so.

True, I also try to game real life. So while I may shoot a Glock in SSP/production my carry gun is a double stack 2011 STI, that until recently wasn't even IDPA legal.