concealed carry using regular guns in realistic gear. I guess I was wrong. I went to a match yesterday and, of the 50 or so people there, I saw only one other person using an IWB holster. Most of the competitors were wearing plastic holsters that held the gun out from their bodies, not exactly ideal for concealment. Of the 9 people on my squad, eight were shooting 9mm's, I was the only one shooting a 45. A lot of the guns I saw were double stacks with mag wells that made the already large guns even larger. I know that these guns are in a different class and all that but c'mon. I even over heard one "instructor" talking to another guy about his equipment which included a box stock Glock. He said he believed in using what he carried on a regular basis, which is my philosophy. When I asked to see his holster he showed me yet another of the plastic rigs I already described but said, I carry in a Mitch Rosen for regular carry. Huh? I am also pretty sure that he was shooting a Glock 19 but carries a 23. This guy was out for an advantage. If all you care about is winning, I suppose that all of this gaming is just fine. If, on the other hand, you carry one kind of gun/rig/caliber on match day and another during the week, you are only fooling yourself. I don't mind being slower than the other guys because I carry my daily carry gun in my daily carry rig with full power ammo. I don't shoot hollow points because they are just too expensive but you can bet I have put hundreds though my gun to know they work. I know it sounds like I am complaining but I am really not. I still had fun and got to shoot with a great bunch of guys.
I thought IDPA was about..
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Arkansas Paul
Member
It's not about concealed carry at all. It's about practical guns in realistic scenarios. And why does it matter that a lot of people are shooting 9mm? It's still probably the most popular defense caliber. As far as ammo goes, they aren't allowed to shoot powder puff loads. There are power requirements to prevent that.
Jim Watson
Member
Holsters are required to hold the gun within 3/4" of the body. That is still pretty prominent but not what I would call "out from their bodies," not like The Other Game.
Size of a mag well funnel is limited by the requirement that all guns (except revolvers) fit The Box. A Stock Service Pistol may not have one at all. If you don't grasp the differences in the various Divisions you will remain confused and disappointed.
Shooting a G19 and carrying a G23 is probably in aid of cheap ammunition. If he was "all about winning" he would have a G34. Or a G35 with .40 minor ammo.
IDPA has evolved from startup in 1996.
A majority of shooters go by the rules, not the unenforceable pious platitudes of the Purpose and Principles.
But a strong minority do attend with their regular weapons and gear to exercise them in a varied and challenging environment. So have at it.
Size of a mag well funnel is limited by the requirement that all guns (except revolvers) fit The Box. A Stock Service Pistol may not have one at all. If you don't grasp the differences in the various Divisions you will remain confused and disappointed.
Shooting a G19 and carrying a G23 is probably in aid of cheap ammunition. If he was "all about winning" he would have a G34. Or a G35 with .40 minor ammo.
IDPA has evolved from startup in 1996.
A majority of shooters go by the rules, not the unenforceable pious platitudes of the Purpose and Principles.
But a strong minority do attend with their regular weapons and gear to exercise them in a varied and challenging environment. So have at it.
IDPA is a game, sure it's based on the principles of SD, but it's still a game. Shooters can choose if they wish to focus on competing or focus on honing skills for self defense. IMHO it really doesn't matter much as either way you're working on both.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It is "about" whatever you want it to be about. It is a game, with rules. If you're "about" WINNING (like any other sport) you may find it advantageous to use equipment right up on the line of the rules. If you're "about" defensive style practice and using your exact carry equipment, then you have a useful set of tests by which you can measure your own improvement month-to-month with the gear you carry.
As a big bonus, you have the opportunity to discover that your beloved carry gear is slow as molassas, hard to hit with quickly, difficult to reload, and many other kinds of lousy. You have several options at that point -- 1) Change your carry gear to such that works better, 2) Decide you just don't care and will carry whatever gun you like in whatever holster you like and accept that it isn't the setup you're most proficient with, or 3) become bitter and whine that everyone else won't use the same slow gear you prefer to carry.
I solved the problem for myself by carrying for defense whatever I'm best with on the competition course.
Then why the rant?
This season I'm trying to see how good I can get at IDPA; in that pursuit there are only a few things I won't change tactically. In the past I've done it to improve specific skills related to gunfighting, and to get familiar with a gun I was issued. You can approach it however you like. I don't begrudge others for having their own reasons to compete.
As already said, don't complain if you aren't there to compete. Be open minded to what works better than what you might be using and use IDPA as a testing ground for you're technique and equipment
I've CCW'd a Beretta 96, SIG 226 and M&P9...these are all practical choices in double stack guns. The guns with extended magwells are shooting in ESP...which is the racer class. Oddly, adding texturing to a polymer gun will also move your production gun, like a G19 or M&P9, from SSP to ESP.
1. A G19 is a reasonable, and more cost effective, training tool for a G23...it is no different than training with reloads and carrying premium hollowpoints
2. A .40 can be loaded to shoot softer than a 9mm at the same power level...so you'd get a softer shooting gun and a 1mm larger hole
You could be testing your equipment and technique under competition pressure to see how it holds up. It really isn't much different than training with a .22lr conversion or through Dryfire
I haven't carried IWB since the 4th year I have been carrying...it is too hard on my spine. I always carry in a OWB rig, a kydex one, which is always concealed under an unbuttoned shirt...oddly the same shirt I use for IDPA
Since 9mm is my choice in a CCW caliber, why would it be less realistic?
I've CCW'd a Beretta 96, SIG 226 and M&P9...these are all practical choices in double stack guns. The guns with extended magwells are shooting in ESP...which is the racer class. Oddly, adding texturing to a polymer gun will also move your production gun, like a G19 or M&P9, from SSP to ESP.
Two separate points
1. A G19 is a reasonable, and more cost effective, training tool for a G23...it is no different than training with reloads and carrying premium hollowpoints
2. A .40 can be loaded to shoot softer than a 9mm at the same power level...so you'd get a softer shooting gun and a 1mm larger hole
Not always.
You could be testing your equipment and technique under competition pressure to see how it holds up. It really isn't much different than training with a .22lr conversion or through Dryfire
Hangingrock
Member
There are rules thus a game. If it were reality you would be the target and your antagonist or antagonists would not be constrained by rules. To think other wise is rather Walter Mitty like.
I am only there for the hot girls and prizes.
When I carry concealed I usually use IWB. But I usually use OWB for IDPA. There are still many things that you can learn and practice despite using a different holster. The holster is different for the draw and first shot in a string of fire - 3 to 31 shots. Most of the shooting is focused on follow-up shots, target transitions, reloads, shooting while moving, target priority, etc. OWB is just more convenient for IDPA.
Just like tennis -- I usually set aside some specific drill time for practicing serves (ie - drawing). But most of my time is spent on other aspects - forehand, backhand, volleying, lobs, strategy/shot placement, etc.
Other folks are free to get what they want out of IDPA. I'm competing not against them, but rather the goals I set for myself that will help me better prepare for the a time, should it arise, to defend effectively. Nothing against those who shoot for speed and times and get the equipment to do so. But my motivations are solely pragmatic. And I try to emulate those who shoot stock and use their carry rigs and shoot half my time with twice my accuracy.
BTW, I see nothing wrong with using 9mm for IDPA or carry. Personally, for IDPA, I use what I carry. If you carry a 45 and use a 9mm for IDPA, I don't really see an issue as one should be equally proficient with whatever you pick up. If one only carries a 45 that's limited to, say, 8 round mags, then one might consider only putting 8 rounds in their 9mm mags (assuming it's capable of 10) just to ingrain the possibility of more frequent reloads and its implications (this may change your strategy of use of cover when engaging multiple targets, for example).
But I think one can learn a lot from IDPA besides just shooting quickly.
Just like tennis -- I usually set aside some specific drill time for practicing serves (ie - drawing). But most of my time is spent on other aspects - forehand, backhand, volleying, lobs, strategy/shot placement, etc.
Other folks are free to get what they want out of IDPA. I'm competing not against them, but rather the goals I set for myself that will help me better prepare for the a time, should it arise, to defend effectively. Nothing against those who shoot for speed and times and get the equipment to do so. But my motivations are solely pragmatic. And I try to emulate those who shoot stock and use their carry rigs and shoot half my time with twice my accuracy.
BTW, I see nothing wrong with using 9mm for IDPA or carry. Personally, for IDPA, I use what I carry. If you carry a 45 and use a 9mm for IDPA, I don't really see an issue as one should be equally proficient with whatever you pick up. If one only carries a 45 that's limited to, say, 8 round mags, then one might consider only putting 8 rounds in their 9mm mags (assuming it's capable of 10) just to ingrain the possibility of more frequent reloads and its implications (this may change your strategy of use of cover when engaging multiple targets, for example).
But I think one can learn a lot from IDPA besides just shooting quickly.
justice06rr
Member
I think you misunderstood some of the ideas behind IDPA. Its not so much about conceal carry, but more on SD. You still have a conceal garment, but realistically OWB is always faster and more efficient to draw from than IWB which is why everyone uses a OWB setup.
9mm is also a good choice just to save a few $ since you have to shoot around 150rds, so that is a significant amount of savings on ammo compared to .45cal. So if you carry a .45 on a daily basis, its just smart to use a 9mm for IDPA purposes only. You'd also have to remember that some folks carry more than one pistol and different calibers for CC. A double stack pistol is preferred for more capacity vs a pocket pistol or single-stack that you may carry on a daily basis. If you were using a mag with less than 10rds (single stack), you would be reloading quite a lot!!
And just like any other shooting organization, it is a sport with its own rules that have to be followed. Some of those stages call for walking into a scenario with BG's, but realistically you should be trying to get away from them as much as possible. On the plus side, it still emphasizes many good practices like reloading and shooting from cover.
9mm is also a good choice just to save a few $ since you have to shoot around 150rds, so that is a significant amount of savings on ammo compared to .45cal. So if you carry a .45 on a daily basis, its just smart to use a 9mm for IDPA purposes only. You'd also have to remember that some folks carry more than one pistol and different calibers for CC. A double stack pistol is preferred for more capacity vs a pocket pistol or single-stack that you may carry on a daily basis. If you were using a mag with less than 10rds (single stack), you would be reloading quite a lot!!
And just like any other shooting organization, it is a sport with its own rules that have to be followed. Some of those stages call for walking into a scenario with BG's, but realistically you should be trying to get away from them as much as possible. On the plus side, it still emphasizes many good practices like reloading and shooting from cover.
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forindooruseonly
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2009
- Messages
- 1,076
It's funny. People complained that IPSC got away from the purpose behind it, and that all the specialized equipment ruined it, so IDPA is created, and now people complain that IDPA has gotten away from its intended purpose and that the specialized equipment ruined it.
I've heard the same said about sporting clays, silhuottes, and other shooting games.
I've heard the same said about sporting clays, silhuottes, and other shooting games.
I was gonna let this go but...
then I thought why not stir the puddin' a little. If you don't know what that means then you are not listenin' to the right talk show hosts. I have been shooting competitively in three different disciplines over the last 25 years. In silhouette shooting I had more State titles than I can remember. In Cowboy action I was consistently in the top 10% when I shot traditional but that wasn't good enough to take home a trophy so I started trophy hunting. First I went to duelist and started winning trophies and I eventually ended up shooting frontier cartridge duelist and also winning trophies. I started caring less about winning and more about doing it right. My black powder rounds made so much smoke that, more often than not, I would have to shoot the targets from memory cause, I couldn't see them.
At a match in Maryland this cowboy came along, lookin' all the part, and shot the stage so fast I had to congratulate him. Since I was scoring I had to ask which category he was shooting. When he replied that he was shooting frontier cartridge, I burst out laughing. No really I said, thinking he was joking, since my farts made more noise and smoke than his rounds did. He walked away insulted and I walked away more convinced than ever that "spirit of the game" meant nothing to many.
I gave up Cowboy Action shooting not because I couldn't win a trophy, because I no longer cared about winning trophies, and still don't. I gave up Cowboy action because I took my daughter to the range one day and, when I drew my Glock, I automatically tried to thumb the non-existent hammer back with my off-hand thumb, like I would would with a single action revolver, if I were shooting with two hands. I started practicing more and more with my carry gun and let Cowboy action fall by the wayside. If I were still shooting CAS I would be carrying Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt, because I knew it better than any other gun. One day while practicing on my own, a guy came by and asked me if I shot IDPA, when I said no, he said I should give it a try. I did and, since it fit with the way I wanted to shoot, I joined IDPA.
That was two years ago and I only shot four or five matches. I shot no matches last year because of lack of time and money. During the time I was shooting, always CDP with my daily carry gun, a Kimber Tac-pro II in an IWB holster, I generally did pretty well in my category. I was often asked why do you use an IWB holster or told you should try this. My response was always the same, "because that is how I carry every day". At my second match this year, only 14 people, I won the overall match. There were at least 2 guys there that I know to be excellent shooters, they both congratulated me since.
I have seen it all when it comes to gaming a sport. A good friend of mine who is 6' 8" tall and weighed 330, ended up shooting a pair of Ruger Vaqueritos in 32 mag, just to get an edge. That same guy, by the way, told a pair of individuals to quit their whining about not being able to knock over some knock downs with their 44 specials since he had just seen my then 9 year old daughter do it with a pair of 32 mags, several years earlier. I saw guys bend the rules in slihouette shooting, by extending their sights past the end of the barrel to get an edge. I also saw the development of better sights by some of these same individuals, and applaud them for it. I know gamers and I like a lot of them. I also have never minded them shooting the game their way while I shot it mine.
I said all that to say this. I remember when IDPA came on the scene and why it was developed. It was geared to the average guy who didn't want to spend 3-5 thousand just to be able to compete. It WAS geared to the guy who carried a gun concealed everyday, which is why why we most often wear a cover garment. It WAS an attempt to get away from the wonder-guns of IPSC. Unfortunately, what has happened is that, a bunch of IPSC wannabees have drifted into IDPA. That is why they use holsters that no one would ever think of trying to carry concealed with. If you use a holster that allows 3/4" between the grip of your gun and your body, to conceal a gun, you are an <person that likes something differnt than I like, and that is ok>. If this is your duty rig or similar to your duty rig , that is fine but, let's face it, most of these guys aren't LEOs. As for 9mm, I have owned and currently own several guns in 9mm. I do not currently, nor will I ever carry a 9mm as a primary, unless they stop producing the 40 S&W and 45 acp. I will carry it as a backup gun. I bought a 1911 in 9mm so that I could buy cheap practice ammo. Needless to say, it does not recoil the same way that a 1911 in 45 acp does. Anyone wanna buy a 1911 in 9mm? The only good reason to carry a 9mm is to have more rounds available. That dilemma was settled with the development of the 40 S&W. That is why I sold my G-19 and bought 2 g-23s, arguably the the best handgun ever made. What is there not to like about 14 rounds of firepower equal to that of most 45 rounds, in a gun that is easily concealable for most people? Nothing, except the trigger, which is why I carry my 8 round 1911 with 2 spare mags at the ready every day. I just shoot it better. If you are carrying a 40 and shooting a 9mm and expecting the same results with both, you are < a person that likes something different than I like, and that is ok>. If you are carrying a 9mm instead of a 40 S&W, and aren't an 11 year old girl or a feeble person, you are < a person that likes something different than I like, and that is ok>. If you think you can convince me that most of these guys are shooting guns in 9mm, and carrying them in plastic holsters, because ammo is cheap and besides, that is how they carry normally, then you are also < a person that likes something different than I like, and that is ok>, especially if you believe it. One last thing, those so called concealment vests just scream " I HAVE A GUN AND BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN TO AN IDPA MATCH, I THINK I KNOW HOW TO USE IT".
At this point, I feel like they ought to have a category called RCC, Realistic Concealed Carry. It would allow any gun in any caliber, including the lowly 9mm, carried in an IWB or OWB that hugs the gun close to the body. Magazine pouches would have to hug the body. Cover garments could be anything except Tactical Vests. I WOULD suggest that except for the fact that I have seen too many categories kill, or severely injure a sport. I was a Cowboy Action match director for 8 years. It got to the point if I had 100-150 shooters I had to give out 50-75 awards. Pretty near the same happened in NRA silhouette.
As I said in my original post, If all you care about is winning, I suppose that all of this gaming is just fine. If, on the other hand, you carry one kind of gun/rig/caliber on match day and another during the week, you are only fooling yourself. I don't mind being slower than the other guys because I carry my daily carry gun in my daily carry rig with full power ammo.
then I thought why not stir the puddin' a little. If you don't know what that means then you are not listenin' to the right talk show hosts. I have been shooting competitively in three different disciplines over the last 25 years. In silhouette shooting I had more State titles than I can remember. In Cowboy action I was consistently in the top 10% when I shot traditional but that wasn't good enough to take home a trophy so I started trophy hunting. First I went to duelist and started winning trophies and I eventually ended up shooting frontier cartridge duelist and also winning trophies. I started caring less about winning and more about doing it right. My black powder rounds made so much smoke that, more often than not, I would have to shoot the targets from memory cause, I couldn't see them.
At a match in Maryland this cowboy came along, lookin' all the part, and shot the stage so fast I had to congratulate him. Since I was scoring I had to ask which category he was shooting. When he replied that he was shooting frontier cartridge, I burst out laughing. No really I said, thinking he was joking, since my farts made more noise and smoke than his rounds did. He walked away insulted and I walked away more convinced than ever that "spirit of the game" meant nothing to many.
I gave up Cowboy Action shooting not because I couldn't win a trophy, because I no longer cared about winning trophies, and still don't. I gave up Cowboy action because I took my daughter to the range one day and, when I drew my Glock, I automatically tried to thumb the non-existent hammer back with my off-hand thumb, like I would would with a single action revolver, if I were shooting with two hands. I started practicing more and more with my carry gun and let Cowboy action fall by the wayside. If I were still shooting CAS I would be carrying Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt, because I knew it better than any other gun. One day while practicing on my own, a guy came by and asked me if I shot IDPA, when I said no, he said I should give it a try. I did and, since it fit with the way I wanted to shoot, I joined IDPA.
That was two years ago and I only shot four or five matches. I shot no matches last year because of lack of time and money. During the time I was shooting, always CDP with my daily carry gun, a Kimber Tac-pro II in an IWB holster, I generally did pretty well in my category. I was often asked why do you use an IWB holster or told you should try this. My response was always the same, "because that is how I carry every day". At my second match this year, only 14 people, I won the overall match. There were at least 2 guys there that I know to be excellent shooters, they both congratulated me since.
I have seen it all when it comes to gaming a sport. A good friend of mine who is 6' 8" tall and weighed 330, ended up shooting a pair of Ruger Vaqueritos in 32 mag, just to get an edge. That same guy, by the way, told a pair of individuals to quit their whining about not being able to knock over some knock downs with their 44 specials since he had just seen my then 9 year old daughter do it with a pair of 32 mags, several years earlier. I saw guys bend the rules in slihouette shooting, by extending their sights past the end of the barrel to get an edge. I also saw the development of better sights by some of these same individuals, and applaud them for it. I know gamers and I like a lot of them. I also have never minded them shooting the game their way while I shot it mine.
I said all that to say this. I remember when IDPA came on the scene and why it was developed. It was geared to the average guy who didn't want to spend 3-5 thousand just to be able to compete. It WAS geared to the guy who carried a gun concealed everyday, which is why why we most often wear a cover garment. It WAS an attempt to get away from the wonder-guns of IPSC. Unfortunately, what has happened is that, a bunch of IPSC wannabees have drifted into IDPA. That is why they use holsters that no one would ever think of trying to carry concealed with. If you use a holster that allows 3/4" between the grip of your gun and your body, to conceal a gun, you are an <person that likes something differnt than I like, and that is ok>. If this is your duty rig or similar to your duty rig , that is fine but, let's face it, most of these guys aren't LEOs. As for 9mm, I have owned and currently own several guns in 9mm. I do not currently, nor will I ever carry a 9mm as a primary, unless they stop producing the 40 S&W and 45 acp. I will carry it as a backup gun. I bought a 1911 in 9mm so that I could buy cheap practice ammo. Needless to say, it does not recoil the same way that a 1911 in 45 acp does. Anyone wanna buy a 1911 in 9mm? The only good reason to carry a 9mm is to have more rounds available. That dilemma was settled with the development of the 40 S&W. That is why I sold my G-19 and bought 2 g-23s, arguably the the best handgun ever made. What is there not to like about 14 rounds of firepower equal to that of most 45 rounds, in a gun that is easily concealable for most people? Nothing, except the trigger, which is why I carry my 8 round 1911 with 2 spare mags at the ready every day. I just shoot it better. If you are carrying a 40 and shooting a 9mm and expecting the same results with both, you are < a person that likes something different than I like, and that is ok>. If you are carrying a 9mm instead of a 40 S&W, and aren't an 11 year old girl or a feeble person, you are < a person that likes something different than I like, and that is ok>. If you think you can convince me that most of these guys are shooting guns in 9mm, and carrying them in plastic holsters, because ammo is cheap and besides, that is how they carry normally, then you are also < a person that likes something different than I like, and that is ok>, especially if you believe it. One last thing, those so called concealment vests just scream " I HAVE A GUN AND BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN TO AN IDPA MATCH, I THINK I KNOW HOW TO USE IT".
At this point, I feel like they ought to have a category called RCC, Realistic Concealed Carry. It would allow any gun in any caliber, including the lowly 9mm, carried in an IWB or OWB that hugs the gun close to the body. Magazine pouches would have to hug the body. Cover garments could be anything except Tactical Vests. I WOULD suggest that except for the fact that I have seen too many categories kill, or severely injure a sport. I was a Cowboy Action match director for 8 years. It got to the point if I had 100-150 shooters I had to give out 50-75 awards. Pretty near the same happened in NRA silhouette.
As I said in my original post, If all you care about is winning, I suppose that all of this gaming is just fine. If, on the other hand, you carry one kind of gun/rig/caliber on match day and another during the week, you are only fooling yourself. I don't mind being slower than the other guys because I carry my daily carry gun in my daily carry rig with full power ammo.
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LubeckTech
Member
I must be missing something where are the hot girls and prizes????????????
This sounds like a "club level match" where the equipment requirements are generally very lax - you will usually see stuff at these which would NOT fly at a sanctioned match.
While 9mm is not as powerful as 45acp it has proven to be a very lethal round for the past 100 years or so.
This sounds like a "club level match" where the equipment requirements are generally very lax - you will usually see stuff at these which would NOT fly at a sanctioned match.
While 9mm is not as powerful as 45acp it has proven to be a very lethal round for the past 100 years or so.
mgmorden
Member
A very wise old gentlemen who attends most of the same local matches I do once said a very important line: "If they keep score, then it's a game.".
Yes, it does have some different ideas behind it, but IDPA (and USPSA, and Steel Challenge, etc) is a game. In any game you will have people who play just to have fun and people who play to win. There will be those who don't care about the score and those that do. Each individual competitor is absolutely free to choose which of those two types they'll be, but regardless of your choice, you have to respect the other faction and let them play the way they want. That comes with competing in any sport.
It honestly sounds like you just aren't comfortable with the idea of competition shooting (regardless of your past "exploits"). You'd probably do better doing some self defense training classes and/or exercises.
I will say though that Sam1911 does have a very valid point, and competition shooting does a lot to show what will work and what won't in real scenarios. Way back when "defensive" shooting was generally taught as a 1-handed "speed crouch" style. To a large degree it was competition shooting that showed that the more modern two-handed form is faster and more accurate. I'm sure initially though there was some cane waving and accusations about "gaming" though
.
Yes, it does have some different ideas behind it, but IDPA (and USPSA, and Steel Challenge, etc) is a game. In any game you will have people who play just to have fun and people who play to win. There will be those who don't care about the score and those that do. Each individual competitor is absolutely free to choose which of those two types they'll be, but regardless of your choice, you have to respect the other faction and let them play the way they want. That comes with competing in any sport.
It honestly sounds like you just aren't comfortable with the idea of competition shooting (regardless of your past "exploits"). You'd probably do better doing some self defense training classes and/or exercises.
I will say though that Sam1911 does have a very valid point, and competition shooting does a lot to show what will work and what won't in real scenarios. Way back when "defensive" shooting was generally taught as a 1-handed "speed crouch" style. To a large degree it was competition shooting that showed that the more modern two-handed form is faster and more accurate. I'm sure initially though there was some cane waving and accusations about "gaming" though
.M2
Member
No one is shooting back at you, so it's not gonna be realistic.
It's practice, but some people treat it like a competition.
However, the only true test is when you actually have to use your firearm for self-defense...
It's practice, but some people treat it like a competition.
However, the only true test is when you actually have to use your firearm for self-defense...
Sheepdog1968
Member
The times I've done it, I've used the exact pistol I'd use to defend myself. I had lots of fun doing it and learned a bunch of stuff in the process.
YankeeFlyr
Member
That's the way I feel about "service rifle" matches.
Service rifles don't have tricked stocks, trigger jobs, fine sights and other attributes that would make them unsuitable (at least by military testing) for...well...service. Match-grade barrels? C'mon. Op-rods? C'mon. Loads that exceed the mag length so the AR shooter has to load them individually through the port? C'mon.
Unless my understanding is incorrect, back in the old, old days at Camp Perry, they HANDED you the rifle you were going to use, and the ammo.
I know about the NRA rules and all that world of high power stuff, and so I can't say folks are cheating....just that it's gotten so far away from the spirit that it's ridiculous. Shooting jackets to hook on to? REALLY?!?
My M1 Garand is as stock as they get. And it's a service rifle. And I don't wear a special glove or a dress-looking coat to shoot it.
Service rifles don't have tricked stocks, trigger jobs, fine sights and other attributes that would make them unsuitable (at least by military testing) for...well...service. Match-grade barrels? C'mon. Op-rods? C'mon. Loads that exceed the mag length so the AR shooter has to load them individually through the port? C'mon.
Unless my understanding is incorrect, back in the old, old days at Camp Perry, they HANDED you the rifle you were going to use, and the ammo.
I know about the NRA rules and all that world of high power stuff, and so I can't say folks are cheating....just that it's gotten so far away from the spirit that it's ridiculous. Shooting jackets to hook on to? REALLY?!?
My M1 Garand is as stock as they get. And it's a service rifle. And I don't wear a special glove or a dress-looking coat to shoot it.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And it clearly still is. In 2008, when I worked the IDPA National Matches, I watched the Division Champion in CDP take home his trophy with a plastic .45 that cost about $500. Nothing special about it at all.
And the irony is, IPSC has divisions where exactly the same is true. Buy a gun like Glock or M&P, buy a $50 holster and mag pouches, and if your skill is up to it, you can win your class. Only a very few disciplines are really an equipment race, though a lot of people (not in the winners' circle) think they are.
Yup. The vests give you a decent place to stow a mag easily, but otherwise any shirt will do. Just like what you might wear every day. The only thing strange about the competition vests is the looks.
Or, said another way -- what happened is that they held up a trophy for each division winner and so folks choose the guns and gear that they are fastest and most accurate with.
The smartest of us learn from the competition field and then CARRY what we're fastest and most accurate with. The most critical shot we'll ever take ISN'T on the shooting range.
I haven't seen a SINGLE person try to slip by with a holster that held the gun off that far in years of SO and MD work. Many people do carry every day in Kydex, and using paddle holsters, so if you want to call them IDIOTs (please don't) this gear is not the antithesis of concealed carry. Maybe if you could show a picture of something that passed IDPA rules but no one would use to carry, that would help, but I haven't seen it yet.
So what? YOU don't. But MANY MANY MANY MANY people do. Every day. Including cops and soldiers and detectives and guards, and concealed carry folks. Your opinions on the matter are yours -- and increasingly yours ALONE.
Ah ha! A clue! If it is faster on target, you get faster recovery of your sights. And that means more hits on target. More hits on target are more important than a few thousandths of an inch of a bigger hole.
That's your opinion. But not a terribly insightful one. If you want to worship with the cult of the big .4? that's fine, but you're denigrating a lot of people who have as good, or likely better understanding and experience as you who do not agree with you.
Ah ha! The answer to the question that didn't need asking.
Please stop. This is getting close to directly insulting people and that will get you dis-invited from participating here.
Suffice to say, if you are carrying a .40 or a .45 because you feel that the 9mm cannot get the job done, then your opinion is more similar to a religious conviction than a scientifically proven fact. These are handgun rounds. MOST people shot with ANY of them survive, and can even continue to fight on. The ability to hit multiple times, quickly, and accurately is more important that the caliber/cartridge. So when defending yourself it is important to have with you whatever gun you shoot fastest and most accurately. Period.
It might scare you to face it, but the answer might just be 9mm for a lot of people. Maybe even YOU.
Because ammo is cheap? Absolutely! That's why I started shooting 9mm a lot more. I can afford to practice more and compete more. I know I can make the hits with it, so I carry it more often than before, as well.
(Psssst, and a secret for you: When I carry any of my 9mms out in public... don't tell anyone, cause I don't want them to think I'm an IDIOT ... but I carry them in plastic OWB holsters!
)Yeah. We covered that. The only purpose is for a convenient place to stow the brass, and maybe to be a little cooler on a hot day. I've seen guys concealed-carrying with those vests out in public exactly TWICE. It's a non-issue.
And, if you hadn't said ALLLL this other stuff, that statement would be just FINE! You do what you do, to get out of the match what YOU want. Others will do their own thing.
All you have to do is relax, enjoy yourself, and stop frettin' and fumin' and fussin' about it.
I feel the same way as the OP. They use guns they would never really carry or could never conceal wearing clothes and/or holsters they would never use away from IDPA.
They are within the rules, no doubt. It just seems silly to me. A lot of shooters will be of the mindset that. 45 ACP is the only good defensive caliber. But they could never get close to their score with their minor PF 9mm.
I guess it wouldn't be so dumb to me if they weren't claiming it as practice. One guy shot a G34 all day with ammo that hardly cycled the action. After the match he brings out an M&P shield, which he says is his carried weapon. Out of 3 magazines, he hit a plate on the rack maybe twice from 10 yards.
That's a damn shame.
They are within the rules, no doubt. It just seems silly to me. A lot of shooters will be of the mindset that. 45 ACP is the only good defensive caliber. But they could never get close to their score with their minor PF 9mm.
I guess it wouldn't be so dumb to me if they weren't claiming it as practice. One guy shot a G34 all day with ammo that hardly cycled the action. After the match he brings out an M&P shield, which he says is his carried weapon. Out of 3 magazines, he hit a plate on the rack maybe twice from 10 yards.
That's a damn shame.
mgmorden said:
This. And what Sam1911 wrote.
Bovice said:
Again, so what? IDPA's a game. Those who've confused it with SD training or insist it ought to be so, or that it was intended as such do so on their own, just as those who aren't proficient with their carry piece do so on their own. Just as we all have our own reasons for our interest in shooting, we all have our own reasons for competing.
Besides, I'm one of the "gamers", yet I've carried that very same equipment, because I'm confident in it, and I know it works. It's one of the points Sam1911 was making, I believe.
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ny32182
Member
That is a lot of people you are calling "IDIOTS", there CZ...
You play the game by the same rules as everyone else. Read the rulebook and find out what is legal, and what is not.
If you "don't care about winning" then quit whining. I find it hard to believe that you "don't care about winning" but care enough to post 6" worth of semi-coherent diatribe about it in a single post. If you want to win, the better course of action is to find out what helps the winners win and emulate it. It works a lot better than your current approach, I promise.
At least the last 12 IDPA major championships have been won with a $500 Glock. There is no NEED for anything exotic or expensive to be competitive.
You play the game by the same rules as everyone else. Read the rulebook and find out what is legal, and what is not.
If you "don't care about winning" then quit whining. I find it hard to believe that you "don't care about winning" but care enough to post 6" worth of semi-coherent diatribe about it in a single post. If you want to win, the better course of action is to find out what helps the winners win and emulate it. It works a lot better than your current approach, I promise.
At least the last 12 IDPA major championships have been won with a $500 Glock. There is no NEED for anything exotic or expensive to be competitive.
More people shooting matches. I dont see that as a bad thing.cz223 said:
Hi.cz223 said:
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