Ideas that should be explored

[230RN]

Sounds like yo're getting close to a straight-walled cartridge, like those required by some states (Ohio for instance) for deer hunting.

I was surprised to find out about this restriction. Maybe that's why the .45-70 is coming back?

 

[jmorris]

We have nail guns that run off butane with electronic ignitions and such, eliminating the need for air compressors. I would really be interested in a version that would be a small one hand portable air compressor that was powered from a rechargeable tool battery and 1lb propane tank for hundreds of CF of air regulated down to 90 psi or so.

However, an air rifle that used something similar but even smaller version would be fun to play with as well. Would be like a PCP rifle but no need for a pump, just need 12v and propane.

I have gathered some suitable (5000 psi rated) tanks to experiment with and built some suitable timers, alas another project that I might get around to seeing work before I kick the bucket.

 

[230RN]

We have nail guns that run off butane with electronic ignitions and such, eliminating the need for air compressors. I would really be interested in a version that would be a small one hand portable air compressor that was powered from a rechargeable tool battery and 1lb propane tank for hundreds of CF of air regulated down to 90 psi or so.

However, an air rifle that used something similar but even smaller version would be fun to play with as well. Would be like a PCP rifle but no need for a pump, just need 12v and propane.

I have gathered some suitable (5000 psi rated) tanks to experiment with and built some suitable timers, alas another project that I might get around to seeing work before I kick the bucket.

I doubt that you could get the pressure required for a practical air gun, but wrist-style blood pressure (BP) monitors have small compressors in them which run off the BP cuff batteries. Maybe with a little development....?

I must confess that was one of my bizarro ideas which I was reluctant to discuss above, I could tell you about my not completely formed idea about a ramjet-accelerated bullet, but I won't.

Terry the Tenable
Or maybe just the Nineable.

 

[jmr40]

The problem I see with a 7.62X39 in a +P loading is keeping the +P ammo out of rifles not rated for +P ammo. This has been tried many times over the years and it usually is just easier to develop a new case that can't be loaded in the wrong rifle.

The 38/44 was simply a 38 Special cartridge loaded to 357 mag levels, but was intended to only be shot in large frame 38 revolvers. But people started buying 38/44 ammo and shooting it in small and medium frame revolvers. Smith made the 38 cases 1/10" longer so they wouldn't fit a 38 and called it 357 Mag.

Hand loaders had been tweaking the 260 for years to improve performance, but the loads they developed wouldn't chamber in a factory 260 rifle. They had to put together custom rifles to work with their loads. Manufacturers decided it was easier to just develop a new cartridge and they called it 6.5 Creedmoor.

The 450 Marlin is just a hot loaded 45-70 that won't fit in older 45-70 rifles meant for black powder level loads.

The 375 Winchester is just an improved 38/55, in fact you can fire 38/55 in a 375 rifle, but not the other way.

The 300 Weatherby magnum is a slightly tweaked 300 H&H. And once again you can fire 300 H&H in a 300 Weatherby, but not the other way.

This is why we have so many cartridges with performance so close.

 

[230RN]

I'm not sure you have to actually ignite the propane / lpg / butane to get substantial velocity. This propane gun operates semiautomatically with just the tank pressure of a butane cigarette lighter. it even operates the slide.
You fill the tank in the mgazine with a cigarette lighter filler, pressure around 360 PSIG. The 6mm plastic balls hit with enough energy to give a good dent to a stainless steel bowl.

In addition it has a gizmo in the barrel which imparts a spin to the ball. It was pretty accurate, even at "extreme" ranges of 20 yards.

Just FYI as to what can be done with just LPG tank pressure.

Terry, 230RN

 

[jmorris]

I doubt that you could get the pressure required for a practical air gun,

A few degrees past TDC cylinder pressure in engines ran off propane can exceed 1500 psi. You can go much higher than that with a small piston, driven by a larger one.

Like this booster pump I made, that using 90psi shop air can bump up 1000 to 2500 psi.

 

[230RN]

I'd like to point out that the full text of that quote is:

"I doubt that you could get the pressure required for a practical air gun, but wrist-style blood pressure (BP) monitors have small compressors in them which run off the BP cuff batteries. Maybe with a little development....?"

I've had people kite off on segments of what I said before, so I wanted that to be clear.

But that's a nifty development, jmorris !

Terry, 230RN

 

[Tirod]

So, after coming up with some interesting neat way to calculate bullet power I forgot it and didn't write it down.

Now in my old age I came up with this: fps X ft lbs / grain weight = force factor (move decimal to make it a two whole number expression)

I'm trying to compare various cartridges to see which has the better overall performance with quick calculations and yes reams of paper and a computer app would do that. Say I'm attempting to choose which would be best of a limited number of possible long term success cartridges.

Grab the existing info for that cartridge, feet per second at the muzzle, times the foot pounds of force gets you a number representing power, then divide by the grain weight of the bullet to "temper" the power by mass. Move decimal to make it workable.

This is basically "fudge factor" math, not existential truth discovery. Take a 115 grain bullet at 2500 fps with 1700 ft lbs of force - a 6.8SPC recipe. Do the math you get 36,956 or 36.9. Now a 5.56 recipe, 55 grain bullet running at 3200 fps with 1,300 ft lbs, you get 75.6.

For some perspective, .375 SOCOM runs a 200 grain bullet at 2,500 fps carrying 2,500 ft lbs, which results in 31.2.

Now we have three data points (all AR15 rounds) and you can line them up: .375 SOCOM at 31.2, 6.8SPC at 36.9, and NATO 5.56 at 75.6.

What does this tell you?

Which one you could use for a particular game when hunting (or target shooting). I'm beginning to see an exponential scale with this, as the mass and power get larger the number slowly gets smaller. Easy to say "low numbers better than large numbers" but then trajectory comes in and bullet drop for the range involved needs to be considered. I might dream up that magic some day. I was looking for some way to compare what cartridge might be more appropriate with some kind of number to make it seem as if there is science behind it.

Like that happens, I want the .375 because it's a big honking cartridge that barely fits in the magazine single stack. Looks impressive, for the money these days I'm in for less than the 6.8 ten years ago. Such is life.

Maybe there is some way to factor in the range where it still has 1,000 ft lbs. That gives you it's ethical limit which is something we could consider more often.

Have fun with that when you need to sort out some idea of where to go with competing cartridges.

 

[tmd16556]

My crazy idea is a semi automatic pistol cartridge that fires .257 bullets. Like a heavy 5.7 meets 256 Win Mag. using 60-87 gr bullets in a necked down case base on a common enough parent case. Maybe 9x19, 40 S&W, or 10 mm.
It doesn’t solve any real problems but it would be neat and make quarter bores great again.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

My crazy idea is a semi automatic pistol cartridge that fires .257 bullets. Like a heavy 5.7 meets 256 Win Mag. using 60-87 gr bullets in a necked down case base on a common enough parent case. Maybe 9x19, 40 S&W, or 10 mm.
It doesn’t solve any real problems but it would be neat and make quarter bores great again.

So a 25TCM of sorts? Hmm, that is interesting. What about a 10mm necked down to .355? Like a modern version 357mag or 357Sig+p+ I guess is technically what it would be as 357sig is a 40s&w necked down to .355.

 

[jmorris]

I'd like to point out that the full text of that quote is:

"I doubt that you could get the pressure required for a practical air gun, but wrist-style blood pressure (BP) monitors have small compressors in them which run off the BP cuff batteries. Maybe with a little development....?"

I've had people kite off on segments of what I said before, so I wanted that to be clear.

I didn’t figure it was worth going backwards to the very low pressures blood pressure monitors operate at. Something around 210 mmHg on the outside or just over 4 psi. So I went in the direction of much greater pressure generation.

 

[Anchorite]

The similar case where pressure could be increased and more powder used to seriously better performance is the .30-30. It has almost 30% more case capacity than the AK/PPU and the pressure is limited to 42,000 psi due mostly to the cartridge's age. Combined with a longer barrel than is typical of 30-30, that cartridge could be seriously woken up.

There was a gunsmith (from Texas, if memory serves) named Michael Turner who tinkered with the 30-30 in late 80s, maybe early 90s. He shot competitively for several years and had really perfected the case in LV and HV configurations, so much so the guys running rail guns in 30BR were being threatened. Can probably Google him or look through the archives over at benchrestcentral. It was a cool round, very forgiving and quite interesting. But case prep was a chore … truly a labor of love.

 

[Anchorite]

I got the idea from a wildcat, 35/30-30. A necked up 30-30 of 35 caliber. I have an example in my collection, and the shoulder is very small. It doesn't headspace on the shoulder, granted, it just don't look quite right. And I want to be different.

Gary Reeder has a 355 GNR, which is his version of the 30-30 blown out to .35.

 

[230RN]

So, after coming up with some interesting neat way to calculate bullet power I forgot it and didn't write it down.

For general interest, the formula for bullet energy in foot-pounds is

(velocity X velocity X weight) / 450,240 = energy

Velocity in feet per second, weight in grains, energy in foot-pounds. You will note velocity is squared.

That denominator contains all the conversion factors including weight to mass, grams to grains, gravity at your locale, velocity to feet per second, etc.

That denominator varies slightly with the source, Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. It depends on variations, mainly, like gravity at your locale. It varies a little with latitude and other things.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Zerodefect]

A drone with a net permanently attached, is just a mid air collision with another drone. Nothing criminal about it. Especially if the net is made of Christmas tree lights for cool seasonal effect.

Copy the Luago Arms Alien.

Might start my own parts company. There is a giant ignorant cloud hovering over 1911's and 2011's right now.

 

[Keyfer 55]

Electronic fired cartridge and make primers obsolete!!

 

[Archie]

Electronic fired cartridge and make primers obsolete!!

Already been done. Somewhen in the 1960s (if memory serves) someone (European, if memory serves) made an over and under shotgun using what looked like regular shotgun shells EXCEPT the firing mechanism was electronic. It delivered a pulse to the special primer which activated the primer and so on.

It worked, but it was too fast. Shotgun shooters (the ones in the trial) quickly found their timing and lead were faulty and needed relearning.

I recall it was an expensive set up (at that time) and was NOT compatable to the then (and still) common primed ammunition. One would have to replace each gun as desired. No way to alter existing arms reasonably.

I believe one of the 30mm cannon in Gatling configuration is set up for electronic primers as the barrels rotate so quickly a mechanical firing pin was too slow to time properly. Don't know if that's still in use.

 

[webrx]

a black powder revolver or rifle that does not need percussion caps or shotgun primers, i.e. uses a piezo electric igniter kind of like the device in a bbq lighter to ignite the powder in the chamber instead of having to put a cap on the nipple, or, maybe uses a flint and wheel like in the old zippo lighters that could be replaced every 50 to 100 rounds.

I understand that at one time an electric rifle existed (CVA Electra) but it had issues with fouling on the electrode and cold weather firing due to the battery, which I suspect may be why this ended up being discontinued but if you used something like the piezo electric, there is no battery, fouling of course is still a concern.

Seems like making an electrically fired or flint fired revolver or rifle should not be that hard to do, theoretically, but, again, fouling is a concern.

maybe a replaceable sacrificial electrode, that can be easily produced (bend and insert a piece of copper wire in a holder) swap it out after x rounds, inexpensive and readily available?

there is also this one where someone tried something similar it with BP
https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ml/electricml.html

So, it has been tried in a rifle more than once.

d

 

[Tirod]

Electronic fired cartridge and make primers obsolete!!

Remington did it. EtronX cartridges and a 700 bolt action to fire it. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/electric-cartridge-primers-gone-but-not-lamented/

They sold for $1999 new and primers were 5X the price. And back then, no USB charging for the battery. Ammo components are heading up as collectors keep snapping up the older guys stashes as they pass on.

No way to convert to normal ammo, and you had to key the switch in the grip cap to turn it on.

In the day, we had firearms which used a flint to make sparks and ignite a powder train in the chamber. Now we use black powder pills at one end and muzzle load the bullet. Somewhere in all that we might meet in the middle.

Breech load a stacked pill with bullet, the bolt has two prongs which push into the base pill, and enough volts to get it to burn, done. Caseless with electric ignition. Now add a shuttling chamber where you can flip the other one to the top for the next shot, a 2 cylinder so to speak.

If it's dual feed with the pill in one side and the bullet in from the other, do we have a black powder repeating muzzle loader? If it was a revolver it would be. Pulling back the handguard loads the bullet, pushing forward the pill, and rotates to the top in line with the barrel. A pump and possibly using the existing components on the market.

 

[RedlegRick]

Figure out some way to create a plasma packet and then project it at high velocity, possibly by using a maser? No brass or lead required, just electricity and some gaseous substance to turn into plasma. Yes, that's the basic concept for the Star Wars blasters, and I believe the time is now someone to figure it out

 

[OrangeCat]

A duty sized 9mm with the reciprocating components held inside an enclosed receiver with a couple of mlok slots milled by the barrel and a full length pic rail on the top to make accessories and optics stupid easy to mount.

With the right short recoil system it shouldn't be too much bulkier than a standard fullsize pistol.

You know. Until you load it up with your laser, flashlight, red dot, night vision, can opener.

 

[Archie]

Tirod; thanks for filling in my brain's blanks.

 

[buck460XVR]

Back in the 60s the old Popular Mechanics had an article about a caseless cartridge. Seeing as how the brass case is a major factor in the cost of producing ammo, one would think this would be something folks would pursue.

 

[adcoch1]

I would like to see an automated primer building press. With simple to get components, simplifying our reloading supply chain.

RE the +p 7.62x39, we just need to give the x39 the Ackley treatment, straighten the case taper to 6.5g angles, and load to 65000. It might take some powder tweaking to achieve the desired results, but if Tulammo can get a bimetal 154 grn to 2350fps we should easily be able to get a 150grn to 2500fps or so.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

Sounds like yo're getting close to a straight-walled cartridge, like those required by some states (Ohio for instance) for deer hunting.

I was surprised to find out about this restriction. Maybe that's why the .45-70 is coming back?

In Michigan they also have a case length regulation, so 45-70 is out. If you had a 45-60, that would be legal here.