IMMEDIATE CALIFORNIA SHALL-ISSUE!!! Read this, guys!

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Actually the liability issue is interesting. The scared part of me says there is no way a sheriff is going to want to get named on a lawsuit for a CCW holder getting into a shoot out. However. There must be something that protects the sheriff from this for the regular CCWs out there now. So nevermind, I will keep thinking positive. Plus I am still in the "already got mine" crowd. Sorry, I know I am a bastard. However, you know if you need help in Kern County with this, I have nothing to lose by helping. Let me know.
 
Actually the liability issue is interesting. The scared part of me says there is no way a sheriff is going to want to get named on a lawsuit for a CCW holder getting into a shoot out. However. There must be something that protects the sheriff from this for the regular CCWs out there now. So nevermind, I will keep thinking positive.
Government officials performing discretionary functions generally have a qualified immunity for civil damages to the extent their conduct does not violate clearly-established statutory or constitutional rights that a reasonable person would have known. Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800, 818, 102 S.Ct. 2727 (1982). A discretionary act is one as to which the actor is free to rexercise judgment in determining the manner in which a duty is to be performed. When little or nothing is left to the individual's judgment as to the manner in which to perform the duty, the duty is said to be ministerial. Qualified immunity is available to officials, but not their governmental entities, in the case of a challenged custom, policy, or usage.

Additionally, many underwriters will insure public officials: www.puc-mrm.com/applications/public_off_appl.pdf

I still think that humane societies are a better venue for deputizing than county officials.
 
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I just thought of something....

even if this gets shot down somehow, and doesn't work, it may help us.

Tactical failure, strategic victory.

If it fails, it will be covered, and covered well. Our issue will be out there, and could, if we play our cards right, spin the fence sitters our way.

This is only if it doesn't work. Personally, I think it will work fine.


But the point is, i don't see how this could be anything else but a win win for us, barring poor handling of the media by our group.


James
 
The humane society thing may be a dead end.

I got an EMail not long ago from a guy who does uniformed armed humane society work under these exact circumstances; he even goes along on drug raids to deal with the inevitable four-legged issues and helps with the rest of the search warrant serve. He's a former cop, but didn't retire on that status...and you guessed it, was having issues dealing with scoring CCW.

See, "peace officer status" is NO guarantee of CCW!!! People think it is, but it isn't. It's STILL discretionary on the part of sheriffs/chiefs, unless we're talking about a PAID cop/deputy for said chiefs/sheriffs.

Example: BART is a multi-county "light rail/subway" system in San Francisco, San Mateo, Alameda, Contra Costa and very soon Santa Clara. Their transit PD system is a specially chartered form of "state police", a bit like a mini-CHP. Their paid officers have off-duty carry rights but if they have reservists (dunno if they do) such folks not only wouldn't have off-duty CCW, they'd have to apply to the sheriff/chief where they live just like anybody else, and would probably get screwed...'specially in SF.

It gets worse. In the CCW penal codes, the four-year permit is specifically linked to lists of various TYPES of peace officers, including oddballs like tribal reservation police, harbor patrols, etc. Humane Society peace officers ain't on the list.

Finally, a sheriff can issue statewide only to their OWN deputies of any description (peace officer or not).

So...unless somebody can cite to codes that show otherwise, I don't think this will work.

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Carnitas' ideas at the bottom of page 10 are quite good, esp. #2 where positive defensive incidents are reported. #1 (quick reporting to issuing agency of problems) would have to be phrased carefully to avoid the appearance of "cover-up attempt" but that's managable. These could be part of the "deputization agreement form" (one to two pages tops, that).
 
The humane society thing may be a dead end.
With all due respect, I submit that it is well worth pursuing, if only for the far greater likelihood of swaying a private citizen than suborning an elected public official.
See, "peace officer status" is NO guarantee of CCW!!! People think it is, but it isn't. It's STILL discretionary on the part of sheriffs/chiefs, unless we're talking about a PAID cop/deputy for said chiefs/sheriffs.
Under the circumstances proposed, your chief would be the head of the humane society in question.
See, "peace officer status" is NO guarantee of CCW!!! People think it is, but it isn't. It's STILL discretionary on the part of sheriffs/chiefs, unless we're talking about a PAID cop/deputy for said chiefs/sheriffs.
If your goal is to carry a concealed weapon legally, peace officer standing will suffice. See e.g. P.C. SS 12027 and 12027.1 requiring that "peace officers ... who were authorized to, and did, carry firearms during the course and scope of their employment as peace officers, shall have an endorsement on the identification certificate stating that the issuing agency approves the officer's carrying of a concealed and loaded firearm."
 
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That's the thing tho... the head of the humane society can't issue.

It's city police chiefs and sheriffs. That's it


James
 
That's the thing tho... the head of the humane society can't issue.
They need not issue anything beyond the documents warranting your swearing in as a humane society officer. Then they only need to endorse you for concealed carry of firearms.
It's city police chiefs and sheriffs. That's it
Don't focus on the CCW permit as a piece of paper. Think about the legal right to carry a concealed weapon.
 
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If you don't work full time as a humane society officer, you're not gonna score carry rights automatically. Just as reserve LEOs don't automatically score em.

Case In Point: reserve, POST trained officers for my city's PD have a policy manual informing them that after ONE YEAR of good service, they may apply for a ccw. But even then, it's still not guaranteed.


James
 
If you don't work full time as a humane society officer, you're not gonna score carry rights automatically. Just as reserve LEOs don't automatically score em.
You will get your carry rights endorsed by the same authority that ensures your standing as a peace officer, namely the head of the humane society.
 
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You're missing the point...

according to LAW, the only LEOs that get automatic carry priviledges are those who are active.

Reserve secure their carry rights through CCW. Of which the humane society is NOT an issuing authority.

Therefore, your plan would work for active, working humane society officers. If you want to leave your career and pursue that, then fine, it'll work for you. But, to use humane society "reserve" status to get carry rights wouldn't work.

James
 
You're missing the point...
As we say in California, I could be wrong but I'm not.
according to LAW, the only LEOs that get automatic carry priviledges are those who are active.
Automatic carry privileges are not at issue.
Reserve secure their carry rights through CCW. Of which the humane society is NOT an issuing authority.
Who said anything about reserve? I like animals. I'm always on the lookout for their welfare. Isn't everybody?
Therefore, your plan would work for active, working humane society officers. If you want to leave your career and pursue that, then fine, it'll work for you. But, to use humane society "reserve" status to get carry rights wouldn't work.
So get together a band of candidates pledging $100 a year for the privilege, and make sure that there are enough of them to underwrite the annual budget of an existing humane society. Then make your own bylaws. Therein lies the subtle difference between taking over a limited liability corporation and imposing your will upon the county sheriff and his electorate.
 
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Michael Zeleny

Hey! that sounds inneresting! I love* animals too!
We should start a humane highroad society.
count me in!


*I love all animals,especially tasty ones...

But really,dogs and cats are cool. I have no problem swearing an oath to protect them...even willing to change litter boxes for the kittys and walk the doggies! just give me ccw now!!!
 
A clarification on "I don't think this will work" above: that's a reference to using Humane Society credencials somehow, NOT the core concept.
 
Hey! that sounds inneresting! I love* animals too!
We should start a humane highroad society.
count me in!
Read Sections 14500-14503 of the California Corporations Code. Sections 14501 et seq. confer important privileges on defenders of our furry friends' rights. However, Section 14500 in its "heretofore formed and existing" part appears to have been enacted in 1997 in order to curb abuses of access to these privileges. (An arsenal maintained by a Pepperdine University professor moonlighting as a humane society officer served as the catalyst for this legislative action.) Should it be the case that no humane societies formed thenceforth are to enjoy the same privileges, we need only to buy our way into an existing, grandfathered animal shelter. Otherwise we can form one anew.
Herewith an example of a successful, albeit financially problematic, animal sanctuary. Individual annual membership dues are $35; families pay between $100 and $1,000; lifetime family memberships are $2,500 and $5,000.
http://www.wildlifewaystation.org
http://www.give.org/reports/care2_dyn.asp?951

Money talks. I will gladly pledge $100 a year to a bona fide animal shelter willing to deputize me as a humane society officer. Who will join me in making this happen?
 
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Find a society willing to do it, and you've found in me a willing participant
Nothing will happen this way. Any plan of this nature, be it formed around county authorities or a private charity, depends for its credibility on a startup budget. We would need committed participation of tens of thousands of dues-paying members to make it economically viable. How do you propose to ensure that?
 
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Well, the simple fact is that regardless of how much you or I like the idea, it wouldn't really work without a buttload of people.

Jims idea has more potential for a slow rolling start.


James
 
Michael-

Where do I send my check?


Everyone: juse because it 'sounds odd' does NOT mean it will not work.

To me it sounds odd that a CCW certificate is required to legally carry in the first palce. If it takes legal BS to beat legal BS, then we will have matched the threat with our response.
 
Well, the simple fact is that regardless of how much you or I like the idea, it wouldn't really work without a buttload of people.
Does it come as a surprise that political reform requires money? George Soros, who is to be credited with the legalization of medicinal marijuana in California, has committed millions of dollars to the cause of gun control. Do you expect to countervail his efforts with empty pockets and harsh language?
Jims idea has more potential for a slow rolling start.
I disagree. Counties tend to exhibit far more inertia than charitable corporations. All we need is an animal shelter properly constituted prior to 1997. The main challenge afterwards would be to keep everything squeaky clean through our scrupulous formulation and observation of bona fide bylaws.
 
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Where do I send my check?
Let's have a show of hands. In addition to contributions, and far more importantly, we need volunteers to bear the legal and administrative burdens.
Everyone: juse because it 'sounds odd' does NOT mean it will not work.
Hear, hear.
To me it sounds odd that a CCW certificate is required to legally carry in the first palce. If it takes legal BS to beat legal BS, then we will have matched the threat with our response.
As combat veterans are wont to translate "once upon a time", this is no BS. In California, as in many other states, humane societies are de facto equivalents of law enforcement agencies, whose jurisdiction also encompasses fighting child abuse. I am neither proffering reasons to arrogate this power frivolously, nor making excuses to exercise it irresponsibly. The right to keep and bear arms has its origin in community policing. At common law, whenever someone committed a serious crime, the people were not merely allowed, but positively expected to raise a "hue and cry" calling upon their neighbors to bear their own weapons in the pursuit and capture of the criminal. No advance in restoring our RKBA will take place, until and unless we learn to honor and appreciate this legal tradition.
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/It_Isn't_About_Duck_Hunting.htm
 
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Michael - It should be easy for anyone to get "deputized" as a humane society officer if all that's required is the payment of $X But, so what? Once they're a "deputized humane society officer", how does that get them a CCW? The *only* entities in the state of California who can issue CCWs are the chiefs of police and the Sheriffs. That's it. And I can guarantee you the San Diego Sheriff isn't handing out CCWs to humane society folks. I just don't see where your idea is going. Jims idea is already moving and has been reviewed by attorneys... *all* we need is for a Sheriff to say "I'll do it". After that, it's nuts and bolts.
 
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