In Regards to Olympic Arms

[cyclopsshooter]

In an email to my cousin who is debating whether to buy a new Olympic Arms M4gery at my store plus a case of brass ammo for $1275 or a DPMS from my competitor in the next town over for 875-
I do not have as much information on DPMS as I do Olympic and I was hoping for some debate and knowledge sharing- I would like to send him an amendment email with thoughts that I have missed or gotten flat out wrong-

Here is the email I sent him already (edited for personal stuff)

Please limit this to Oly vs DPMS and specifically the pros and cons of DPMS (I don't want to hear about family dicking over family )

Oh, and to whom it may concern, my cousin and I only live a few hours from Olympic's plant! so...

It is already clear that I would personally choose an Olympic over a DPMS. I have had experience with both- I own two OLYs...

That is not to say that the DPMS is a bad rifle! It all depends on what the buyer is looking for. The AR debate can be compared to the Ford-Chevy- Dodge question... In reality they are pretty much all the same... all offering small features that their competitors dont- most sharing the same parts suppliers.

I do not know the DPMS rifles as well as I do Olympic but this is what I know-

Olympic Arms began as Schuetzen Gun Works (SGW) in 1956- thy were based in Colorado and specialized in producing barrels for military and commercial contracts. In 1975 they moved to Olympia and began producing AR-15s. their name changed to Olympic Arms in 1982.
The very early rifles used home made barrels but they imported the other rifle parts- Quality control was spotty and not all parts were in proper spec. However, take into account that there were only three AR producers at the time. Colt, Olympic, and I think Bushmaster. Market competition and consumer desires were completely different in the 1970's and as a new competitor to Colt, Oly had to market itself as the budget rifle. Naturally the Colt was better and all the Colt lovers loved to BASH Olympics...

Like most companies with a long established history there are periods where companies are more concerned with quality and reputation. and at other times when the company leadership is more focused on a quick buck. Olympics quality soared in the 1980s but hit a rough patch in the mid 1990s- Quality control took a hit and the ill-fated idea was made of bringing back a cheap plinker rifle with a cast receiver. These cast receivers did not hold up well and in the age of internet forums and faceless 16 year old experts the flames were fanned (like your boss they drank the "boo-aid") Olympic quickly stopped using cast receivers (these were only used on the budget rifle and not the higher end models) and by 1998-2000 Olympic had turned themselves around and focused on making the best rifle possible. For the last ten years their quality has been exceptional- you have seen how my 20" made in 2004 and the 16" made in 1999 have operated, you have felt them, experienced their uber reliability. You also remember that problematic bushmaster?
Olympic is also one of the very few companies that make all of their parts in house, in Olympia and they supply parts to many other AR manufactures! Olympic barrels are top of the line in the industry-

In regards to Olympics reputation keep in mind that bad firearms keep turning up with new owners over and over- People get rid of guns that don't work- One bad gun can pass through ten owners, pissing each off equally before it lands in the hands of an expert who will either fix it or part it out. Olympic is one of the oldest and most widely produced AR manufacturers- AR-15s are the 1911 of rifles. AR-15s and 1911s are the most customizable firearms on the planet- there have been a lot of bubbas who have tried to build both but didn't know what they were doing- those guns are bad and keep turning up over and over too... and they reflect absolutely nothing about the company... Some dummy may have built a crap rifle using a bushmaster receiver and WHO KNOWS what other parts... that rifle ends up in possession of another dummy that just assumes the rifle was made by Bushmaster... so, naturally, all Bushmasters must be junk- Right?

Olympic arms has been credited with many of the AR advancements that we take for granted today (case in point, Olympic developed the A3 flattop/detachable carry handle design that you seek!)
For the last ten years the olympic is as good as it gets- it is a 1000 buck rifle- the very top tier ARs like Noveske and LMT will cost you 2-3000 and those rifles will be only about 15% better. (law of diminishing returns)

If you buy the DPMS chances are that you will be quite happy with it- No offense but at your present state of experience with ARs I doubt you would be able to tell any difference other than price...

Take note that the rifle offered to you by me at 1275 plus a case of ammo is the definitive high end M4 rifle, It has EVERY feature and attention to detail that a consumer could want... The cheaper DPMS out in kittitas could be an M4 but it could still be DPMSs budget "light" model with a crappy skinny barrel.i just don't know- beware of buying a rifle advertised as a flat top- they dont all come with the carry handle and those handles are another 120 bucks. there are dozens of companies each making dozens of AR-15 models from basic cheap to very expensive high quality-

In comparing Oly to DPMS I know of nothing that DPMS does better over present day Olympic aside from having a better price.
I DO know that the Olympic will have a better trigger pull, a better barrel, better fit and finish, and a better bolt carrier group.

Which ever one you choose, I look forward to shooting it with you on Sunday.

P.S. if you wanna share this with your boss be my guest- im kinda curious what he has to say about DPMS and where he got his info!

I deal with Olympic Arms one on one, they built this rifle specifically for my store on our order

 

[kwelz]

I am sorry but you are wrong. I would never suggest a DPMS or Oly to anyone but if the only choice was between those two then I would say DPMS.

For the last ten years the olympic is as good as it gets- it is a 1000 buck rifle- the very top tier ARs like Noveske and LMT will cost you 2-3000 and those rifles will be only about 15% better. (law of diminishing returns)

They are actually considered one of the worst. And your pricing is WRONG. An LMT is under 1K and a Noveske isn't much over 1K.

I don't know of one serious shooter or instructor that uses or recommends Oly Rifles for anything except Door stops.

You like Oly? That is fine. But don't lie to people to try to sell them.

Olympic arms has been credited with many of the AR advancements that we take for granted today

The only thing I know of that Oly is responsible for is the banning of a lot of 7.62 AMMO.

 

[rfurtkamp]

Please limit this to Oly vs DPMS

The problem is that both prices listed for his options are well outside the realm of what either should cost - and don't represent a good, or even average deal, in this market.

In essence you're asking whether getting bent over or bending over is better.

When I can get CMMG and similar better tier guns for that even after paying FFL fees and shipping from CDNN and elsewhere, it's like asking whether I should pay sit-down restaurant prices for a Happy Meal.

 

[shadowalker]

Between the two I'd go DPMS but as others have said both are known for a lack of consistent quality and there are better choices for the money.

With either I'd immediately replace the BCG with a BCM or LMT ($130 to $150) and wouldn't fire 5.56 out of it until I could have the chamber reamed (both are known for not having 5.56 chambers but claiming they do).

the very top tier ARs like Noveske and LMT will cost you 2-3000 and those rifles will be only about 15% better. (law of diminishing returns)

Colt 6920, Daniel Defense, LMT, and BCM guns can be had for around $1200 and sometimes less. Stag while not quite as good as top tier options can be had for around $850 and after properly staking the gas key is a great gun for the money.

Olympic arms has been credited with many of the AR advancements that we take for granted today

I'd love to see some supporting evidence for this claim. If they have created the advancements they certainly haven't implemented them.

They don't:

properly stake the gas key
stake the castle nut
proof and MPI test every barrel / bolt (they do batch testing)
use 4150 barrel steel
chrome line the barrel
use a shot peened bolt
use H buffers in their carbines
use a black extractor insert

To be fair DPMS has most the same problems.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

They don't:

properly stake the gas key
stake the castle nut
proof and MPI test every barrel / bolt (they do batch testing)
use 4150 barrel steel
chrome line the barrel
use a shot peened bolt
use H buffers in their carbines
use a black extractor insert

has this all been a problem thu olyimpics long history or from a spotty period only?

ok, my price info on novesk and lmt was wrong- lets move on from that

 

[cyclopsshooter]

and what the heck is this about?

The only thing I know of that Oly is responsible for is the banning of a lot of 7.62 AMMO.

 

[CoRoMo]

has this all been a problem thu olyimpics long history or from a spotty period only?

He's not referring to some occurrence of poor quality control. It is how the rifles are built. They leave out a few operative things, I suppose to sale their product at a lower price. If they don't chrome line their barrel, stake the castle nut, proof the barrel and bolt, or use quality components, it's because they chose not do put that extra bit of money into their product.

 

[RedLion]

^^^^ probably because most people who own and AR-15 will never put more than 5000 round through it.

 

[shadowalker]

It isn't new. Olympic has rightfully earned a pretty bad reputation over the years.

probably because most people who own and AR-15 will never put more than 5000 round through it.

Exactly right.

When run hard DPMS and Olympic rifles fail at a significantly higher rate than LMT, Colt, BCM and other top and mid tier manufacturers.

If you are only going to shoot a few hundred rounds a year and are not depending on it to save your life they may be good enough. Some of the problems can be addressed or worked around but you will wind up spending more money and still not have as good of a rifle as if you'd just got mid or top tier to begin with.

All AR-15s are not equal and not all parts, even if they fit, are mil spec. Mil spec is not the ultimate standard but it is a good minimum standard, if they don't build to at least mil spec there is a problem.

Almost all commercial AR-15 builders (Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic, Rock River) cut corners to save money. It lets them offer their product for less or make more profit and take advantage of people who don't realize there really is a reason for the things they are cutting out (Bushmaster comes to mind, at what they charge they should be close to top tier but aren't).

Stag is very good for the money but they don't properly stake the gas key (easily fixed but you shouldn't have to), don't offer M4 feed ramps and use 1:9 barrels in most their products.

 

[ForneyRider]

I think my DPMS is excellent buy. I can shoot 40-75gr reloads in .5in groups with the 1:9 tw bull barrel.

I did break the bolt catch when I had the gun open and dropped the hammer. It was a 4$ part I replaced with the tactical version.

I've put about 200 plus rounds through and it has performed extremely well.

I just rescoped it with a Burris Black Diamond 8-32x hoping to shrink the groups up.

 

[Arkady]

While I am not a big fan of the site, AR15.com has a lot of threads discussing the shortcomings of both brands.

In the price range he is looking at, he could probably build a rifle from BCM components.

 

[offthepaper]

I have 2 DPMS AR's and have shot both on a pretty regular basis for the last 2 years. I always keep it clean and lubed.
No problems yet.
I have no personal experience with Oly.

 

[shadowalker]

m4carbine.net is also an excellent resource for anyone interested in the AR platform. They have a huge number of subject matter experts and people with real world knowledge.

Reading through a few of their stickies will save you a lot of frustration and probably money.

I owned a DPMS LR-308 and it was exceedingly accurate and fun to shoot. The only problem I had was the gas block shot loose which is common with screw / clamp type blocks. I'd own a LR-308 again but for a fighting AR I'd choose another brand.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think the important thing to understand is what market the DPMS and Oly rifles are aimed at:

I think my DPMS is excellent buy. I can shoot 40-75gr reloads in .5in groups with the 1:9 tw bull barrel.

I did break the bolt catch when I had the gun open and dropped the hammer. It was a 4$ part I replaced with the tactical version.

I've put about 200 plus rounds through and it has performed extremely well.

This is an excellent example of that market. This is someone who wants an AR they can afford, is doing primarily recreational shooting with an emphasis on accuracy. At 200 rounds thus far (and only one parts failure), they probably aren't going to shoot it enough to have any major parts failures, and if they do then the DPMS/Oly warranty is open-ended enough that the manufacturer can decide whether to fix it or say "not my problem." Besides, as a recreational rifle, the world will not end if a once-a-quarter shooting session at a nearby range gets cut short from a broken part.

However, take that same rifle and give it to someone doing a 5-day Gunsite class and they are probably going to not like the weight of the bull barrel over five days. They will probably be upset with the tight .223 unlined chamber when the rifle gets hot and starts failing to extract (tight chamber, unlined chamber, no extractor upgrade). They will probably be pretty damn upset at missing out on 30 minutes worth of a class they invested several thousand dollars in while somebody replaces a $4 broken part that should not have broke to begin with.

Different goals, different markets. The first thing in buying an AR is to understand what market you are in or plan to be in.

And even then, the DPMS and Oly rifles can still be a good buy for those who have the knowledge and ability to work on ARs and the luxury of giving the rifles a good shakedown. I think Denny Hansen once mentioned that he had approximately 80,000 rounds on his Oly (pre-fire) and was very pleased with it.

Having said all that, it would be impossible to say Oly or DPMS in this case; because I have no idea what models you are comparing and what features each has (or doesn't have as the case may be). I can't say I typically regard either Oly or DPMS as an $875 rifle.

 

[jogar80]

I currently have two AR15's... a Colt law enforcement carbine and an Olympic Arms. To be quite honest I can not tell any difference between the two as far as fit, finish, and reliability goes. The Oly gets far more use than the Colt, simply because I don't mind puttin any wear on it as much as with the Colt. I have never had a single jam with the Oly rifle, even after many rounds without cleaning. And I do agree with the previous posting that says the Oly has a nicer trigger pull. Well.... they both have a horrible trigger, the Oly's is just not as horrible as the Colt's.

I am a Colt fanatic, this is the reason I finally broke down and bought the Colt model AR15... went well with my Colt SAA and my two Colt 1911's. If it wasn't for that simple reason, I would have been just fine with the Olympic arms AR15 I have. I have no problem recommending Oly Arms and have nothing but good things to say about them. I feel that they are not being fairly represented in this thread.

I can not fairly comment on DPMS since I have no experience with them. I have, however, heard good things about them.

 

[kcshooter]

Everyone bashes Olympic nonstop. However, most of those are based on second- or third hand accounts.
A few years back I took a 3-day carbine course. I started with the Oly just to see how far I would make it before having to switch to my back-up Armalite. Funny thing was, I never switched. That Olympic made it thru over 1200 rounds in 3 days.
Not that I think every Oly would have done it, but it just goes to show that they aren't all the junk-guns that the internet leads you to believe they are.
(for the sake of fairness, I did upgrade the extractor, spring, insert and o-ring, and restaked the gas key, but I find that this has to be done on about 4 out of 5 production AR's anyway)

 

[zoom6zoom]

and what the heck is this about?
Quote:
The only thing I know of that Oly is responsible for is the banning of a lot of 7.62 AMMO.

Details here. Basically, a lot of the cheap import ammo available was steel core , which was OK... unless someone offered a pistol in that caliber, at which time the ammo was then banned from importation as ATF had decided it was "armor piercing" if used in a handgun. Oly came out with the first AR pistol and brought the curtain down.

 

[kwelz]

For someone who sells these riles your knowledge of them seems lacking.

Please go HERE and educate yourself.

 

[CaptainSKA]

Wow. Thanks for the laugh - which is all that post is good for.

Oly and DPMS are junk guns. It's not just internet rumor. If you look at the TDP (which is the MINIMUM standard an M4/AR should be built to), OLY and DPMS don't even get close to meeting said requirements. The only thing those two brands and an actual well built AR have in common are the same basic shape.

Don't believe me? Take a look here.

For the prices you quoted you can have a complete rifle from Daniel Defense, LMT, Bravo Co, and (if you shop around) Colt. And if you get really lucky on a used rifle, real close to a Noveske.

I don't mean to seem harsh - but there is so much untruth in what was said there's no other way to address it!

In Regards to Olympic Arms
In an email to my cousin who is debating whether to buy a new Olympic Arms M4gery at my store plus a case of brass ammo for $1275 or a DPMS from my competitor in the next town over for 875-
I do not have as much information on DPMS as I do Olympic and I was hoping for some debate and knowledge sharing- I would like to send him an amendment email with thoughts that I have missed or gotten flat out wrong-

Here is the email I sent him already (edited for personal stuff)

Please limit this to Oly vs DPMS and specifically the pros and cons of DPMS (I don't want to hear about family dicking over family )

Oh, and to whom it may concern, my cousin and I only live a few hours from Olympic's plant! so...

Quote:
It is already clear that I would personally choose an Olympic over a DPMS. I have had experience with both- I own two OLYs...

That is not to say that the DPMS is a bad rifle! It all depends on what the buyer is looking for. The AR debate can be compared to the Ford-Chevy- Dodge question... In reality they are pretty much all the same... all offering small features that their competitors dont- most sharing the same parts suppliers.

I do not know the DPMS rifles as well as I do Olympic but this is what I know-

Olympic Arms began as Schuetzen Gun Works (SGW) in 1956- thy were based in Colorado and specialized in producing barrels for military and commercial contracts. In 1975 they moved to Olympia and began producing AR-15s. their name changed to Olympic Arms in 1982.
The very early rifles used home made barrels but they imported the other rifle parts- Quality control was spotty and not all parts were in proper spec. However, take into account that there were only three AR producers at the time. Colt, Olympic, and I think Bushmaster. Market competition and consumer desires were completely different in the 1970's and as a new competitor to Colt, Oly had to market itself as the budget rifle. Naturally the Colt was better and all the Colt lovers loved to BASH Olympics...

Like most companies with a long established history there are periods where companies are more concerned with quality and reputation. and at other times when the company leadership is more focused on a quick buck. Olympics quality soared in the 1980s but hit a rough patch in the mid 1990s- Quality control took a hit and the ill-fated idea was made of bringing back a cheap plinker rifle with a cast receiver. These cast receivers did not hold up well and in the age of internet forums and faceless 16 year old experts the flames were fanned (like your boss they drank the "boo-aid") Olympic quickly stopped using cast receivers (these were only used on the budget rifle and not the higher end models) and by 1998-2000 Olympic had turned themselves around and focused on making the best rifle possible. For the last ten years their quality has been exceptional- you have seen how my 20" made in 2004 and the 16" made in 1999 have operated, you have felt them, experienced their uber reliability. You also remember that problematic bushmaster?
Olympic is also one of the very few companies that make all of their parts in house, in Olympia and they supply parts to many other AR manufactures! Olympic barrels are top of the line in the industry-

In regards to Olympics reputation keep in mind that bad firearms keep turning up with new owners over and over- People get rid of guns that don't work- One bad gun can pass through ten owners, pissing each off equally before it lands in the hands of an expert who will either fix it or part it out. Olympic is one of the oldest and most widely produced AR manufacturers- AR-15s are the 1911 of rifles. AR-15s and 1911s are the most customizable firearms on the planet- there have been a lot of bubbas who have tried to build both but didn't know what they were doing- those guns are bad and keep turning up over and over too... and they reflect absolutely nothing about the company... Some dummy may have built a crap rifle using a bushmaster receiver and WHO KNOWS what other parts... that rifle ends up in possession of another dummy that just assumes the rifle was made by Bushmaster... so, naturally, all Bushmasters must be junk- Right?

Olympic arms has been credited with many of the AR advancements that we take for granted today (case in point, Olympic developed the A3 flattop/detachable carry handle design that you seek!)
For the last ten years the olympic is as good as it gets- it is a 1000 buck rifle- the very top tier ARs like Noveske and LMT will cost you 2-3000 and those rifles will be only about 15% better. (law of diminishing returns)

If you buy the DPMS chances are that you will be quite happy with it- No offense but at your present state of experience with ARs I doubt you would be able to tell any difference other than price...

Take note that the rifle offered to you by me at 1275 plus a case of ammo is the definitive high end M4 rifle, It has EVERY feature and attention to detail that a consumer could want... The cheaper DPMS out in kittitas could be an M4 but it could still be DPMSs budget "light" model with a crappy skinny barrel.i just don't know- beware of buying a rifle advertised as a flat top- they dont all come with the carry handle and those handles are another 120 bucks. there are dozens of companies each making dozens of AR-15 models from basic cheap to very expensive high quality-

In comparing Oly to DPMS I know of nothing that DPMS does better over present day Olympic aside from having a better price.
I DO know that the Olympic will have a better trigger pull, a better barrel, better fit and finish, and a better bolt carrier group.

Which ever one you choose, I look forward to shooting it with you on Sunday.

P.S. if you wanna share this with your boss be my guest- im kinda curious what he has to say about DPMS and where he got his info!

I deal with Olympic Arms one on one, they built this rifle specifically for my store on our order

 

[.45FMJoe]

How can you possibly try to sell someone an Olympic Arms for $1000?

You're right though, Olympic is not the worst AR manufacturer. That distinction belongs to Vulcan/Hesse/Velocity/Whatever the hell their name is this month. Olympic is right behind them in terms of the worst. How is a Colt $2,000? My 6920 was 11 something shipped. If you honestly think an Olympic Arms is even a halfway decent AR, you do not know much about AR-15s. A DPMS is only marginally better.

 

[atlanticfire]

Azizza, first off you’re arrogant. And your attitude is not very high road at all so maybe you should go chill out somewhere! And second I've shot dozens of Oly arms rifles and handled hundreds of them every year so I would qualify my experience miles over yours. And I'd have to say for what they sell for they are a good gun (600) . Its an entry level AR and I have never had any of mine fail. Even when using there uppers on full auto lowers. The fit might not be perfect or the machining super clean but they work (ok, some of them look a little rough) . The K16s and K8s are super accurate. Are these 1k ARs NO, so it not necessary to compare them to the likes of Noveske or others in that range. Oh and I forgot Olympic’s warranty, I believe its life time. . . maybe? So if there was a problem send it back to them! When are any of you mall Nazis ever gonna need a mill spec M4 anyway? What qualifies you? Are you a super turbo nerd range monkey rolling around in the tall grass pretending your G.I Joe? Are you planning to fight in the front lines of world war three to face the Obama aliens? And for some its “but I saw an internet thread that said”. . . please. There is also tons of stuff on the internet about little pills that with make your dong bigger. . . believe everything you read? I think since the invention of the internet everyone is a self proclaimed expert in everything. Hey Art, I think this one need to be close before someone hurts them selves. . .

 

[Bily Lovec]

 

[atlanticfire]

Oh geezh the useless old chart arrives. . . .

 

[kwelz]

atlanticfire for someone accusing another of being non high road you really need to review what you wrote. I stated a fact. His knowledge of what he is selling is lacking and he is misleading others. Is it suddenly against the rules to state these facts?

He is trying to claim Oly is a quality gun, they are not. He is trying to say they are 1000 dollar guns, they are not. He is trying to say that Noveske, LMT, etc are 2000-3000 dolar guns. THEY ARE NOT.

A price point does not make a gun a "good gun" It doesn't matter if they are $600 or $60 they are not "good guns". They are just slightly less expensive guns when compared to top companies. You can call me arrogant and attack me all you want. However doing so will not change the facts that Oly makes sub par rifles and is a sub par company that has caused no small amount of grief for the shooting community.

Now admitadly other companies have had problems as well. Ruger had old Bill, Colt hand the Union, S&W had the locks. But these companies have tried to turn things around. They have improved products and changed company policies. Olympic is still making the same 2nd rate stuff they always have.

As for what qualifies me to comment on firearms. More rounds down range than I could ever count over 14 years(Yeah I started shooting later in life than many). Experience in the Firearms industry as a distributor for most major brands. Colt, LMT, S&W, Kimber, HK, Taurus, DPMS, Bushmaster, etc, etc, etc. And finally working with and learning from people who have shot more rounds in real life or death situations than most of the rest of us put together have shot for fun.

You don't want to listen to me? Fine. But I can introduce you to people that you should listen to and they are going to tell you the same exact thing. They just won't be as nice about it as I am.

Oh geezh the useless old chart arrives. . . .

You mean the chart that actually shows the features a weapon has and not just how pretty it is in your safe? Look fine you have a different standard for your weapons. Just don't go knocking the people that take their stuff a bit more seriously.

 

[CoRoMo]

The chart is informative. I appreciate the work that Rob_s put into creating it.