ClickClickD'oh
Member
So, just because I got curious I went and pulled the bolt out of my DPMS rifle.. wouldn't you know, gas key is staked.
Huh, go figure.
Huh, go figure.
In Regards to Olympic Arms
- Thread starter cyclopsshooter
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Bily Lovec
Member
post pics of your bolt, there is a difference between being "staked" and being correctly "staked"
SwampWolf
Member
It sort of begs the question doesn't it? I'm only asking that if the procedures (staking the gas key and castle nuts) in fact, as Bartholomew Roberts speculated, have no basis for "special tooling or extra cost", then why doesn't everybody do it? I suspect it might just cost a little more in terms of material and/or labor. On the other hand, as FMJoe noted and B.Roberts implied, since all that's really required is a hammer and punch, the extra labor needed shouldn't amount to that much. But I'm asking a question; not offering an answer, nor taking any position on the matter.
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ClickClickD'oh
Member
Say please.
One is my DPMS bolt, the other is by a "reputable" company.
I think someone would be hard pressed to convince me any of those four screws are going to come wiggling loose.
AR snobbery has replaced 1911 snobbery as the worst kind in gun owner circles. The chart reigns supreme, and whichever manufacturer is "in" this quarter is the coolness, and the others all suck. It really amounts to little more than a peepee measuring contest.
I have lots of friends in LE, FBI, and even a former SWAT trainer who have extensive experience with the AR platform. Ironically, not one of them has ever felt the need to compare mil-spec or chart features. None of them own a Colt. None of them own Noveski. BCM? Not to be found. Maybe they are all stupid, or at the very least, ignorant for not understanding the relevance of mil-spec and the chart. Then again, maybe they just found something that works for them reliably and decided to stick with it.
The only Colt AR owner I know is just an average guy who overpaid for an AR that rides in his safe while he counts on his substandard Bushmasters for real shooting. Still another friend bought a BM that ran beautifully, but he soon found out from friends and the internet that he owned crap. He then put in several hundred dollars to upgrade the crappy BM parts and was left with a less reliable gun...but hey, at least he was mil-spec and chart approved.
I'm not a big features guy myself and will take reliability and accuracy over the much vaunted chart. Whatever gives you that combo is the gun I would buy at whatever price it is worth it to you. Besides, replace parts you don't like...it is an AR for crying out loud, that's its entire point. Oh yeah, don't forget that hammer and punch so you can properly stake that gas tube. lol
I have lots of friends in LE, FBI, and even a former SWAT trainer who have extensive experience with the AR platform. Ironically, not one of them has ever felt the need to compare mil-spec or chart features. None of them own a Colt. None of them own Noveski. BCM? Not to be found. Maybe they are all stupid, or at the very least, ignorant for not understanding the relevance of mil-spec and the chart. Then again, maybe they just found something that works for them reliably and decided to stick with it.
The only Colt AR owner I know is just an average guy who overpaid for an AR that rides in his safe while he counts on his substandard Bushmasters for real shooting. Still another friend bought a BM that ran beautifully, but he soon found out from friends and the internet that he owned crap. He then put in several hundred dollars to upgrade the crappy BM parts and was left with a less reliable gun...but hey, at least he was mil-spec and chart approved.
I'm not a big features guy myself and will take reliability and accuracy over the much vaunted chart. Whatever gives you that combo is the gun I would buy at whatever price it is worth it to you. Besides, replace parts you don't like...it is an AR for crying out loud, that's its entire point. Oh yeah, don't forget that hammer and punch so you can properly stake that gas tube. lol
kwelz
Member
Nothing you wrote there made any sense.Just a little sarcasm to illustrate the absurdity of AR and chart bickering. It has truly become a truly sad thing that divides people within the gun culture and makes us all look like freaks to the non-gun owning world. Furthermore, it turns off a lot
of gun owners who went out and bought a gun they like only to tell people they thought would be excited for them only to be told they bought crap.
Snobbery is a great way to grow the sport and normalize black gun ownersip.
of gun owners who went out and bought a gun they like only to tell people they thought would be excited for them only to be told they bought crap.
Snobbery is a great way to grow the sport and normalize black gun ownersip.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
ClickClick - The DPMS BCG is the one on the right; but it does have a better staking job than my DPMS BCG (none at all).
It does go to show though that manufacturers in a competitive market (and AR15s are definitely a competitive market) will offer better options that we all benefit from if they believe it will give them an edge in that market (of course they'll also offer dubious benefits like titanium firing pins if they think it will give them an edge).
As shooters, the idea is to figure out which options offer benefits and try to quantify what that benefit is. The chart is a great tool, if you understand how to use it. If you don't then you shouldn't complaining that your screwdriver sucks at hammering nails; because that says more about you than it does the screwdriver.
It does go to show though that manufacturers in a competitive market (and AR15s are definitely a competitive market) will offer better options that we all benefit from if they believe it will give them an edge in that market (of course they'll also offer dubious benefits like titanium firing pins if they think it will give them an edge).
As shooters, the idea is to figure out which options offer benefits and try to quantify what that benefit is. The chart is a great tool, if you understand how to use it. If you don't then you shouldn't complaining that your screwdriver sucks at hammering nails; because that says more about you than it does the screwdriver.
Buying a gun isn't a methodical examination of features for a lot of folks, it's a wad of cash buring a hole in their pocket and trying to fill it with a publically accepted display of masculinity.
It's male enhancement therapy - it's not about rational thought. That's why the brand bashing and personal attacks come in. Posters read into threads a lot of ego drama and weigh in unnecessarily to defend their thinking - however slanted, biased, or uneducated.
The Chart just shows what M4's are sold with milspec features. If I choose a precision rifle barrel for long distance shooting, the predominant suppliers with reputations will ship stainless steel - not chromed. Oops, no check mark. Considering milspec M4's run 2MOA, choosing a chrome lined M4 profile barrel for precision shooting would be - to put it bluntly - flat stupid. Saying it nonetheless should be done would be considered in the same light.
Chroming the bore was to reduce wear due to full auto fire - it added some corrosion resistance, but how much is very debatable, the AR should be cleaned daily at a minimum in combat. It's not only important to understand what features are on the chart, but WHY.
Full auto/burst on the carbine is harsh, stake the gas keys. MPI bolts on every weapon ensure the government gets what they pay for - a reliable bolt that will last 3,000 to 8,000 rounds of COMBAT use. Not weekend plinking.
Milspec exists because materials and testing are important. A local supplier of o-rings shipped non-milspec materials on contract. Unfortunately, they were for the fuel and hydraulic systems in jet fighter aircraft. Some fell out of the sky when they failed, which cost us milllion of tax dollars. For a friggin $2 part. That supplier is now in jail.
Milspec does have a purpose - but the civilian buyer can do just exactly as they please. Only they suffer (hopefully) from their decisions. When it might affect others - like using a brass compression fitting to repair a brake line - then others who know the operating conditions aren't wrong to throw the red flag and question it. I do that almost weekly - a brake system developing 3000# of pressure uses double flare fittings. Compression fittings are for icemakers, not cars.
If that's snobbery, tough, but understand the application. I'm looking at a ASA left hand side charger upper for an AR build. No way is that feature milspec, and there is no standard to compare it to, other than what other guns have used in their design. It also comes with no Forward Assist (wailing and gnashing of teeth ensue.) Will it give me superior service in handling stoppages? I think so, as I will be able to hold the weapon up with my hand on the grip and rack the bolt left handed to clear a FTF - just like other highly regarded battle rifles.
OMG it's NOT ON THE CHART! Well, the chart was put together by an intelligent AR enthusiast to help others. It's not a bludgeon to remind cheap shooters their place in life - that's something they bring into the conversation. Nothing to do with Rob_S at all.
I said it before - the biggest part of objections to milspec seem to be class warfare - someone says don't buy junk, others responding "Who you calling junk?"
If you think your junk isn't much to begin with, why admit it complaining?
It's male enhancement therapy - it's not about rational thought. That's why the brand bashing and personal attacks come in. Posters read into threads a lot of ego drama and weigh in unnecessarily to defend their thinking - however slanted, biased, or uneducated.
The Chart just shows what M4's are sold with milspec features. If I choose a precision rifle barrel for long distance shooting, the predominant suppliers with reputations will ship stainless steel - not chromed. Oops, no check mark. Considering milspec M4's run 2MOA, choosing a chrome lined M4 profile barrel for precision shooting would be - to put it bluntly - flat stupid. Saying it nonetheless should be done would be considered in the same light.
Chroming the bore was to reduce wear due to full auto fire - it added some corrosion resistance, but how much is very debatable, the AR should be cleaned daily at a minimum in combat. It's not only important to understand what features are on the chart, but WHY.
Full auto/burst on the carbine is harsh, stake the gas keys. MPI bolts on every weapon ensure the government gets what they pay for - a reliable bolt that will last 3,000 to 8,000 rounds of COMBAT use. Not weekend plinking.
Milspec exists because materials and testing are important. A local supplier of o-rings shipped non-milspec materials on contract. Unfortunately, they were for the fuel and hydraulic systems in jet fighter aircraft. Some fell out of the sky when they failed, which cost us milllion of tax dollars. For a friggin $2 part. That supplier is now in jail.
Milspec does have a purpose - but the civilian buyer can do just exactly as they please. Only they suffer (hopefully) from their decisions. When it might affect others - like using a brass compression fitting to repair a brake line - then others who know the operating conditions aren't wrong to throw the red flag and question it. I do that almost weekly - a brake system developing 3000# of pressure uses double flare fittings. Compression fittings are for icemakers, not cars.
If that's snobbery, tough, but understand the application. I'm looking at a ASA left hand side charger upper for an AR build. No way is that feature milspec, and there is no standard to compare it to, other than what other guns have used in their design. It also comes with no Forward Assist (wailing and gnashing of teeth ensue.) Will it give me superior service in handling stoppages? I think so, as I will be able to hold the weapon up with my hand on the grip and rack the bolt left handed to clear a FTF - just like other highly regarded battle rifles.
OMG it's NOT ON THE CHART! Well, the chart was put together by an intelligent AR enthusiast to help others. It's not a bludgeon to remind cheap shooters their place in life - that's something they bring into the conversation. Nothing to do with Rob_S at all.
I said it before - the biggest part of objections to milspec seem to be class warfare - someone says don't buy junk, others responding "Who you calling junk?"
If you think your junk isn't much to begin with, why admit it complaining?
"Everyone bashes Olympic nonstop. However, most of those are based on second- or third hand accounts"
Exactly!!!
Most people who try to convince you to buy Colt, etc are also selling rifles for a living, they know the price they pay is the same or within a few bucks, but the profit margin is alot higher on the retail end.
Theres always a million 3rd party comments about certain models failing all the time in carbine classes, but why is it that nobody has ever seen these failures. Why is it that those who have actually taken the classes have seen failures among colts more consistantly, but the whole broad range of manufacturers present? Hmmm...
Choose what brand you wish to, I have a DPMS and have experience with other DPMS, I have a Bushmaster (also experience with others), and have more experience with more Milspec colts than most will ever see in their lives (I dont see anything wrong with owning them but their price for what you get).
I looked at getting an LMT, and was a few clicks from ordering, but decided that what i really wanted was a gas piston carbine.
Brand snobbery runs rampant here.
Exactly!!!
Most people who try to convince you to buy Colt, etc are also selling rifles for a living, they know the price they pay is the same or within a few bucks, but the profit margin is alot higher on the retail end.
Theres always a million 3rd party comments about certain models failing all the time in carbine classes, but why is it that nobody has ever seen these failures. Why is it that those who have actually taken the classes have seen failures among colts more consistantly, but the whole broad range of manufacturers present? Hmmm...
Choose what brand you wish to, I have a DPMS and have experience with other DPMS, I have a Bushmaster (also experience with others), and have more experience with more Milspec colts than most will ever see in their lives (I dont see anything wrong with owning them but their price for what you get).
I looked at getting an LMT, and was a few clicks from ordering, but decided that what i really wanted was a gas piston carbine.
Brand snobbery runs rampant here.
When guys like Pat Rogers, who see more rounds go downrange in a month than we can shoot in years say "this works, and this breaks," I listen. If you think you know better, spend your money as you see fit. Why anyone would spend $1k on a piece of **** Olympic when you can have a BCM or Colt for just a couple bucks more is unfathomable to me.
Not sure why so many people are hung up on the milspec thing. Go ahead and keep your milspec, I want well beyond milspec as milspec is the MINIMUM standard that someone (who more than likely is sitting in a nice comfortable office in the Pentagon and will never have to trust his life to the "milspec" item in question) decided was necessary for mass production and issuance to Soldiers in combat. MILSPEC is then made by the LOWEST bidder and given to our fighting men and women to trust their lives to. It may be out of line, but I would venture to say that more politics and pocket lining go into determining "MILSPEC" than does input from end users working/living/fighting in the environments in which it will be ultimately employed.
atlanticfire
Member
Thank you Howe! Thank you very much
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
An odd agreement since you've been defending rifles that don't even meet that MINIMUM standard he mentioned in this thread.
For what its worth
I own two Olys and have had zero problems with either that werent caused by by improper sizing of my reloads. They are very accurate. I am currently in the process of buying a Bushmaster, mostly because I have a need for a lighter gun. I also would like to do some comparisons of my own.
I own two Olys and have had zero problems with either that werent caused by by improper sizing of my reloads. They are very accurate. I am currently in the process of buying a Bushmaster, mostly because I have a need for a lighter gun. I also would like to do some comparisons of my own.
I did not read the first four pages of this, but this is the one thing I like about Oly.
GAMESTALKER: .300 Olympic Super Short Magnum Engineered specifically for North American big game hunting!
Flat Top Upper Receiver 22" Stainless Steel Barrel Free Floating Aluminum handguard ACE Skeleton Stock ERGO Sure Grip Camouflaged Design Weighs About 7.5 lbs Avalilable in: .243 WSSM .25 WSSM .300 OSSM. Complete upper receivers (in black) will be available soon.
MSRP: $1,359.00 Upper Receiver MSRP: $895.70 (Black only)
.300 OSSM Exceeds 30-06 Ballistics 150 grain bullets at 3,000+ fps! Made by HSM 20 Rounds per box Call for stock and more information. MSRP: $49.95 per box.
PISTOL CALIBER MAGAZINES: K9 Magazines are in stock!!! MSRP: $45.44 each. Please call the toll free number and one of the sales staff will be more than happy to help you. There will be two magazine bodies; one for the 9MM and the 40 S&W, and the second will house the .45 ACP and 10MM rounds. Each magazine will have caliber specific followers. Capacities will also vary based on caliber: 9MM=32 rounds. 40S&W=18 rounds. 45 ACP= 18 rounds. 10MM=18-20? rounds. The 45 ACP and the 10MM are not available yet.
GAMESTALKER: .300 Olympic Super Short Magnum Engineered specifically for North American big game hunting!
Flat Top Upper Receiver 22" Stainless Steel Barrel Free Floating Aluminum handguard ACE Skeleton Stock ERGO Sure Grip Camouflaged Design Weighs About 7.5 lbs Avalilable in: .243 WSSM .25 WSSM .300 OSSM. Complete upper receivers (in black) will be available soon.
MSRP: $1,359.00 Upper Receiver MSRP: $895.70 (Black only)
.300 OSSM Exceeds 30-06 Ballistics 150 grain bullets at 3,000+ fps! Made by HSM 20 Rounds per box Call for stock and more information. MSRP: $49.95 per box.
PISTOL CALIBER MAGAZINES: K9 Magazines are in stock!!! MSRP: $45.44 each. Please call the toll free number and one of the sales staff will be more than happy to help you. There will be two magazine bodies; one for the 9MM and the 40 S&W, and the second will house the .45 ACP and 10MM rounds. Each magazine will have caliber specific followers. Capacities will also vary based on caliber: 9MM=32 rounds. 40S&W=18 rounds. 45 ACP= 18 rounds. 10MM=18-20? rounds. The 45 ACP and the 10MM are not available yet.
atlanticfire
Member
Exactly......meaning BS…..
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