In Regards to Olympic Arms

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The biggest problem I have with the lower tier AR's is that gun stores are marking them up too much. They cost allmost as good as a mid- top grade AR! And to get them to run well you need to slide a BCM or LMT bolt carrier group in. Thats extra expense.

Oly, DPMS, RRA, Shrubmaster should cost no more than a run of the mill cheapo AK47 or Saiga. A lower level AR should be priced as such. Then I'm fine with these rifles.

In the $600-800 range the CMMG bargin bin rules.
800-900: Stag. Stag properly stakes their gas key now.
1000-1400: BCM, LMT, Colt

I go to as many rifle training courses as I can afford (very few, but one comes to town every once in a while), and when local clubs have a tactical "run and gun" competition I try to go.

Anything lower than BCM, LMT, Colt, can and deos fail much more often at these. If your going to run these courses/comps, which are not cheap, then its best to put a little extra money into your rifle. And get some Pmags.
 
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I think the whole mil-spec thing is bull ---. A tool used to promote sales and marketing to civilians.
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The mil spec has a lot of value in that it is a minimum standard. If a manufacturer is not willing to meet the minimum standard in quality then that says a lot about them.

Imagine you were buying a car seat for baby and the car seat manufacturer not only refused to meet the minimum standard but said it isn't important, would you be comfortable trusting your child's life to that seat? It may work just fine or it may not, same as with rifles that are not built to a standard and tested.

Manufacturers not held to a standard tend to source parts on a "as cheap as we can get them" basis. That is why a lot of commercial manufacturers cut corners, they can because they aren't selling to the military.

The increasing awareness of what makes a quality AR-15 has resulted in a lot more quality AR-15 rifles being available, Daniel Defense recently entered the market and sells a great product for example.

The funny thing is the term "mil spec" is used by commercial manufacturers to sell products that aren't even close to mil spec.

People who don't care if their gas key is properly staked, bolt is MPI'd or their receiver extension is the correct size tend to argue that it doesn't matter which simply isn't true, it just doesn't matter to them.

They typically don't care because they don't understand the platform enough to care, don't shoot enough for it to be a problem, or are trying to justify a purchase they've made (post purchase rationalization).
 
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When it comes to quality assurance, inspections, and function checks, the contract supplier has to conform to military standards and specifications. They also have to prove they did and document the entire process. It's the same whether it's an M4 or a thermal heat battery for a cruise missile.

Yes, I have expedited work on those.

NO ONE is saying anyone is forced to spend on dime more for a weapon than they have to. What is being said is that there are quality levels makers shoot for. Anyone who bought a Pinto, Vega, Metro, or Yugo knows that you get what you pay for. Cheap guns have always been on the market, but usually don't wind up in collections or museums. They break down, fall apart, are parted out, get junked, and finally show up at gun buy backs because the sheriff is offering more than they are worth.

This is what the chart does - just like Consumer Reports for cars or refrigerators: If the part on that rifle meets the quality standard of military specification, it gets a check off. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

You could buy a billet lower and side charger upper, install a AR Gold trigger, a chrome Young National Match bolt, 6.5 Grendel 24" hammerforged barrel in full bull profile, install a carbon fiber handguard, a Leupold 6X24 scope, Magpul PRS stock, and hold a 600m record with it. But guess what? Probably not one check mark.

Is that rifle a piece of crap?

But an Oly, DPMS, or other, with reports all over the net of quality problems, weak extractors, FTF's, magwells that won't take mags, crooked sights, and OMG 2MOA accuracy ( which is mispec - huh? ) and legions of supporters come trooping to the cause.

Cheap crap AK's have these problems, too, which I find hilarious in those threads. "Avoid Century," "Don't buy kit guns!" etc is good advice at the $400 level, but the same kind of advice at $600, the AR crowd has to take gaff from people who apparently have no clue what the specs actually mean.

This discussion really isn't about the Chart, it's about class warfare - I ain't taking no edjumicated suckers advice about nothing, my guns are just as good as yers.

All talk and no walk. Carbine course instructors see it every day in class. Cheap guns break down, and the staff loans them one much higher up the list so the student doesn't miss out on his $$$$ time. The course Armorer fixes it for nearly free with a milspec part so he doesn't have to do it again tomorrow.

I get customers in like that every day - the cheap yellow box of brake pads, a one year starter, the import ignition module. See you next month when the last part you bought cheap fails 2 weeks after the guarantee expires. The extra ten in your pocket now guarantees you will do it again. What are they thinking?

Class warfare, you edjumicated suckers ain't taking my money, parts is parts.

Riiiight.
 
Extremely Pro Gun said:
This chart is very biased, like the 1:7 barrels being the best, that is 100% personal preference.

What about chrome lined barrels? A chrome moly barrel is more accurate at the cost of lasting fewer rounds also making it personal preference.

The receiver extension diameter doesn't matter its just mill-spec vs commercial ***?

Heavy buffer vs carbine buffer?????? <----- Preference

DUDE, this chart is completely whacked out!!!
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As has been mentioned, the chart is factually comparing rifles to the TDP of the M4. So the personal preference comes in on your end, the chart is just a tool to help you make a choice.

That said, the receiver extension does matter. Commercial tubes have been known to fail, generally the threads pull out of the receiver. This happens because the way the two different sized tubes are manufactued.

Heavy buffer vs carbine buffer: 1. the TDP calls for an H-buffer. 2. Over-gassed guns usually need an H-buffer to function reliably (as well as a proper extractor spring, insert, and possibly O-ring.
 
Isn't this what kinda makes a lot of people on this board really angry? Asserting an opinion on what someone should or should not buy/own?

The AR is a extremely diverse weapon, it can be modified to fit really any need someone could come up with. The military really only has one use for it. Why don't we figure out what the OP really wanted to use it for. If its for having some fun on some weekends, then an Olympic would be fine. The original AR-10, M-16A1, and CAR-15 are not mil-spec right now, but I think they'd all work fine? Which begs the question, a non-mil-spec weapon fails at what exactly? Reliability is a imprecise term, it could mean shooting 100 round, or shooting 10,000 rounds in sand/water/mud/marshmallows.
 
I have own 3 AR's in my life, a bushmaster dissy, an olympic plinker plus and a olympic K16.

All of them ran fine and never had any problems.

THe finish on the Olympic wasnt the best I have ever seen, so if you are looking for a pretty rifle, look elsewhere, but if you want a reliable shooter, they are a good deal.

The lack of chrome lining, I could care less I clean my rifles and I dont live in a tropical zone lol.

If you have unlimited amounts of taxpayer dollars, sure the Colt might be the best choice, but I dont.

You can buy a plinker plus model olympic and K16 for the price of one Colt. I guarantee the K16 will be more accurate.

I did a two day 500 round carbine course with my plinker plus, shooting freaking wolf 55 grain steel case ammo and iron sights, I by far had the cheapest gun with the cheapest ammo and I shot the highest in the class on the FBI rifle qualification test.

Yes I beat several 2000K plus guns with their high dollar names, expensive ammo, and fancy red dots with my lowly plinker plus with A-1 iron sights lolz.

My advice is get a good quality AR and learn how to shoot and practice before you get worrying about shot peened this or gas staked that.
 
The original AR-10, M-16A1, and CAR-15 are not mil-spec right now, but I think they'd all work fine?
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I have often thought the exact same thing.

I seriously doubt any of the A-1 rifles would be up to specs now, but they worked fine once the Army went back to the correct gun powerder and taught the soilders proper maintence.
 
If its for having some fun on some weekends, then an Olympic would be fine.
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If it were $500 maybe. But the price is around $1000 and for the money the person can have a much better firearm.

Secondly if it isn't a fighting firearm that you may use to save your life a lot of things don't matter.

The original AR-10, M-16A1, and CAR-15 are not mil-spec right now, but I think they'd all work fine?
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Most the time the reason the specification changed is things didn't work fine.

That's the reason for the h buffer, chrome lining, staking the gas key, staking the castle nut, MPI barrel and bolt.

Problems were identified, resolved and specs updated.

Removing the fix will re-introduce the problem. Some people don't shoot enough to see the problems or get lucky.

Some Olympic AR-15s may run fine for what people do with them, but the military deals with hundreds of thousands of weapons and has a much larger sample size and is able to see trends in failures.
 
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Most the time the reason the specification changed is things didn't work fine.
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Or because the military contractor had friends in congress.

Lets be honest, alot of military spending is nothing more then pork going to a congressional district.

I am not denying that alot of the spec changes did improve function, but at what cost?

Do you really think the changes improved function that much to justify adding 50% to the price tag for the average shooter?

I gave $600 for my plinker plus model Olympic.

Do I really need double heat sheilds on a semi auto rifle?
 
What chaps my hide is the assumption by many that "AR15" and "M4" are synonymous.

Personally I like the AR platform, alot. Personally I have no use for an M4 copy.

I do not want a gun with a carbine length gas system / sight radius, a creeping heavy trigger, a grenade launcher cut in the barrel, a cheap telescoping butt stock, or a non-floated barrel... especially one with a reduced section under the handguard.

I have been a GI. I don't subscribe to the belief that the Army knows best, particularly in regards to my peronally owned firearms.
 
Well the debate comes up because the people asking typically do not understand why the features are there or whether or not they need them, so they start using the Chart as a shorthand to make their buying decisions for them.

The Chart is actually tremendously useful as long as you understand why those features were implemented. However, my favorite rifle has only seven of the criteria on the Chart. Everything else was either a conscious decision on my part to deviate from what the military required or a decision that if it hadn't broken by now, it wasn't like too :)
 
Most the time the reason the specification changed is things didn't work fine.

That's the reason for the h buffer, chrome lining, staking the gas key, staking the castle nut, MPI barrel and bolt.

Problems were identified, resolved and specs updated.
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Does someone with a semi-auto only gun and in a suburban environment need chrome lined barrels?

Can an AR-10 use an H buffer?

Does a A2 or A1 stock need a castle nut?

Does a 9mm upper need a properly staked gas key?

I'm just making a point that inside the U.S., you can get by fine without looking at mil-spec anything, and you can find quite a bit of goodies that the military has no specifications for at all.
 
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If you really want to go back in time we would also have 1:12 and 1:14 barrels which we know don't work well with bullet weights capable of being effective in fighting.

Does someone with a semi-auto only gun and in a suburban environment need chrome lined barrels?
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Actually yes they do, the chrome lining helps with extraction when the chamber is hot.

Does a 9mm upper need a properly staked gas key?
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If it uses a BCG and has a gas key yes it does.

I'm just making a point that inside the U.S., you can get by fine without looking at mil-spec anything
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Anything is possible, meeting a minimum standard makes it a lot more likely.

There is a difference between an educated, informed person that decides they don't need a feature and someone that just assumes all AR-15 rifles are the same and just as good as each other.
 
AR Snobbery

Wow, I've seen a lot of stuff written here that just plain sounds like snobbery to me. "They don't properly stake their gas keys", "They don't chrome line their barrels", etc. etc. Guys the whole thing boils down to personal preference and what you can afford and what you intend to use the rifle for. It just seems to me that some of you people that are really, really into AR's like to kick sand in the faces of the people who shoot the Chevrolet, Ford, or Dodge version of AR's because you might shoot the Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche version of AR's. The OP just asked a simple questions regarding DPMS and OLY. Many of you gave honest answers as to what you would recommend, but then you continued to run this guy down for not owning or buying Noveske, LMT, Colt or BCM. You have your preferences and your reasons for those preferences...but really stop kicking SH*T at the rest of us who can't afford or are just getting into shooting AR's. I personally own a Bushmaster which some of you have run down as "Shrubmaster"; this gun has been a very good gun for me and it is as accurate as any gun I've ever shot. I have relation that are in the military...one of them in Spec. OP's and he was actually considering buying one so that he could keep up his shooting skills on leave. Personally would he shoot an OLY or a DPMS at the range...yeah I think he would. Would any of you drive a Chevy, Ford, or Dodge? I know this for certain, I won't run you down for not driving a Mercedes, BMW, or Porsche!:fire:
 
Azizza, I get your point on what the OP was asking and many of you explained yourselves in detail as to why...that part I think is clear to everyone. The thing that is not appreciated by those of us new to AR's is the B.S. renaming of a company who may manufacture a budget AR or some elitist comments on, "why would anyone consider buying....(fill in the blank)". Many of you are providing useful information when explaining yourselves, but some of the people posting here are responding with their noses up in the air while running down other companies and that just turns people off and defeats the purpose of this forum in my opinion. You can explain why one gun is better than another, but some of the people posting here are doing it with an attitude. Telling someone they obviously don't know much about AR's is in the vein of what I'm talking about.
 
According to the famous chart, which I do believe offers good information, does not take into account the different uses ARs have. The chart is comparing commercial rifles to military weapons. Sure, chrome lining is good but most people it seems will see that olympic and dpms have non chromed bores and equate that to a quality problem... However, chrome lining decreases accuracy- something that olympic strives for!

My other beef has to do with the number of people who report problems with a rifle- it is a legitimate gripe if you bought it brand new but if you bought it used there is no way to know how many people have monkeyed with it!
 
I do not want a gun with a carbine length gas system
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I have thought about this in the past- I like the cycling rate on my 20" and have wondered if that special gas tube at brownells which coils once around the barrel really works. Has anyone tried this?
 
Can someone tel me how old this chart is...I see many manufactures missing
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It is updated often. I believe Rob only includes companies that have responded to his questions about what features they offer. When changes are brought to his attention he updates it after confirming the information. Date code is 100204 so it was updated Feb. 4th of 2010

For instance Colt finally switched to standard pins on their Civilian rifles, and S&W started putting M4 ramps on their guns. Once this was confirmed then they were updated on the chart.

The chart is for people looking for a M4 style rifle that follows the TDP. If you are not looking for that type of rifle then some of the features will not apply to you. The TDP is not a standard. It is an absolute minimum!

For instance if you are doing a precision build you probably don't want chrome lining. You want a SS barrel. However there are some features which are important no matter what. Such as an MPI tested Bolt, properly staked gas key, a properly cut chamber, etc.

It also shows which companies are willing to cut corners. These are supposed to be their M4 rifles. If they can't get this right what else are they missing?

With any weapon, no matter who makes it, the question isn't if it will fail, it is when it will fail. And there is a correlation between how far to the right of the chart a company is and how often they fail. This isn't from internet experts of gun store commandos, but from people who run and operate carbine classes and people who use these daily in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other areas of operation.

I am scheduled to attend no less than 3 classes this year and I would no more take a Oly or DPMS to one of them than I would issue a Jennings pistol to a Police officer.
 
I like Olys-- they ma not be "top tier", but the few I have seen and shot seemed good enough quality-- I will admit that these have all been newer 2007 and later models-- but a former coworker bought a Plinker Plus (+) for sub $600 about a year or so before BHO, and I shot it at the range back then-- it was a decent shooter, and it was fun to boot--

Nothing bad about Oly do I have to say...
 
My other beef has to do with the number of people who report problems with a rifle- it is a legitimate gripe if you bought it brand new but if you bought it used there is no way to know how many people have monkeyed with it!
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THis is epecially true with AR's and people buying parts from 5 different manufactuers and improperly assembling them.
 
cyclopsshooter said :
(I don't want to hear about family dicking over family )
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It appears that you are already aware of what you are doing. Given the email you sent full of willful misinformation.

As far as which is better, that is all personal preference and what the intended use is.
 
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