Interesting choice for a deer rifle

[Smaug]

I have one rifle that would be OK for deer, my great uncle's old Remington 788 bolt action in 6 mm Rem. Problem is that it's not that accurate, even with handloads. Maybe 3 MoA at best.

I'm thinking my next rifle will be a 223 bolt gun, which is legal for deer here. The Ruger American are about a 1 MoA gun.

Shots on deer here are usually under 100 yards.

If you're going deer hunting, would you take the 3 MoA 6 mm or the 1 MoA 223?

 

[jmr40]

A 223 with quality big game bullets will kill deer. I've done it, but it wouldn't be my 1st choice. But I'd choose it over a 3 MOA rifle. And I'd bet a typical Wisconsin whitetail is a lot bigger than a typical whitetail here in Georgia. I'm not saying, don't do it. Just understand that you're working with a handicap. It would still be deadlier than an arrow and no one chastises archery hunters.

If you're buying a new rifle anyway I'd consider 243 or 6.5CM.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

The “less than 100 yards” part makes me still consider the 6mm. 3 MOA is pretty rough but the boiler room on a whitetail is larger than 3 inches. So at 100 yards or so she’ll do the trick. And 6mm Rock Chucker, Sorry I mean 6mm Remington is pretty cool.

I subscribe to the belief that anything can kill anything if you have good shot placement. But I also subscribe to the belief; Hit it with a bigger hammer too. And I’m honestly not a big .223 fan in general.

 

[.308 Norma]

Shots on deer here are usually under 100 yards.

Whitetail hunting must be a whole lot different than mule deer hunting - which I will have been successfully doing for 60 years come this fall. I can’t imagine anyone thinking they “need” a rifle that will do better than 3 MOA for killing deer at 100, or even 200 yards. Then again, when I say “deer,” I mean mule deer. Maybe whitetails are different.

That said, I enjoy tinkering with my scoped big game rifles, as well as my handloads until they’ll do 1 MOA or better. And then I “sight them in” to hit dead on at 250 yards. But that’s because I enjoy working with my rifles and handloads - not because I think I “need” that kind of precision and that kind of range.

BTW, I’ve killed deer at better than 100 yards with both my Model 94 30-30, and my 50 caliber muzzle loader. Neither one of them is scoped, and neither one of them will do any better than 3 MOA - not for me at least.
Edited to add: I still have my first big game rifle - a scoped Model 100 308 Winchester. It never would do much better than about 2 MOA, and it sure won't now. Yet I killed plenty of mule deer (AND elk) with it in my younger years, and I wouldn't feel all that handicapped if I had to go back to using it today for deer and elk hunting.

 

[rdnktrkr]

Have you looked into improving the Remington? I've never seen a civilian rifle that was a 3moa gun and there wasn't a problem.
I don't like the 223 for a deer round, 6mm/243 has always been my min. But I've known people that shot one with a 22lr.

 

[JDeere]

There is no doubt whitetail can be taken with .223 and hunting bullet. The problem is always being able to get that shot for proper placement. I used to hunt with a 22-250 and took plenty of lesser whitetail with shot placement and 60 grain partitions. When that big buck shows up it's a whole different ball game and I don't care how long one has been hunting. You may not have that perfect shot and excitement is in play. I know it's not a whitetail but one time it took me 3 shots with that 22-250 to get a big Axis buck on the ground. I did not want to make a head shot because of the rack. I was not hunting Axis but sometimes where I hunt they show up. I never took that rifle deer hunting again. Take the 6mm...

 

[N555]

What's the range?
At less than 50 yards an 8moa sks might be fine.

 

[Chuck R.]

For the ranges specified I'd also take the 3MOA 6MM.

As .308 Norma, so aptly put it, a lot of deer have been killed at 100 and under with iron sighted guns that in effect were 3MOA shooters when combined with the human element.

I'd also sort out what's wrong with the 788, the couple I've played with were surprisingly accurate rifles.

 

[Hugger-4641]

If you are going to buy a rifle for deer hunting and you don't want 30cal, then 6.5 Creedmoor would be a much better choice.
I have 3 in 6.5cm that are all 1 moa or less: T/C, Axis, and a 110. My buddies Ruger American Predator is also sub Moa.

 

[Smaug]

It’s academic, guys. I’m Not even planning on going deer hunting. It’s too much trouble for someone like me who doesn’t know someone with property and doesn’t have a family legacy of deer hunting.

The reason I ask is that I just found out that .223 is legal for deer in Wisconsin, where I live, and I’m about to buy a .223 rifle in a month or so. For target shooting.

It just had me WONDERING.

i do have the old 788, but it’s a turd. A couple of you are quick to blame me, but believe me, I tried like hell to get it to shoot: fire-formed brass, different bullets, seating depths, powders and quantities… Then, my trusty Ruger 77/22 in 22LR outshoots it at 100 yards easily, and with any ammo other than Remington Thunderbolt. It’s a ****ty rifle.

The only thing I can think of that I may have done wrong was not letting it cool off enough between shots.

 

[Bfh_auto]

6mm is a great deer cartridge. I would spend some time on the rifle and see if it can be improved.
I've seen too many deer die from 223 to even suggest it's not adequate.

 

[DM~]

i do have the old 788, but it’s a turd. A couple of you are quick to blame me, but believe me, I tried like hell to get it to shoot: fire-formed brass, different bullets, seating depths, powders and quantities… Then, my trusty Ruger 77/22 in 22LR outshoots it at 100 yards easily, and with any ammo other than Remington Thunderbolt. It’s a ****** rifle.

The only thing I can think of that I may have done wrong was not letting it cool off enough between shots.

So, you tried some things with the ammo, I didn't read that you tried anything with fixing the rifle!

788's are good shooters, you need to check the scope and mounts, clean the bbl., check the bedding ect... I'm betting there's something going on with that rifle.

DM

 

[plumberroy]

At 100 yards or less 8 MOA is fine

 

[WisBorn]

I would go with the 6mm. The thing that comes to mind about the accuracy is the bedding. It being a 6mm Rem and not a 244 Rem is that the barrel twist should be fine with 90-100 bullets.
The reason the 244 didn't do well was a slow twist for light weight bullets. The renaming of the 244 to 6mm came with a faster twist barrel. This was done to compete with the 243 win as a deer rifle.

 

[Smaug]

I would go with the 6mm. The thing that comes to mind about the accuracy is the bedding. It being a 6mm Rem and not a 244 Rem is that the barrel twist should be fine with 90-100 bullets.
The reason the 244 didn't do well was a slow twist for light weight bullets. The renaming of the 244 to 6mm came with a faster twist barrel. This was done to compete with the 243 win as a deer rifle.

Well, I guess the first thing I should do is not shoot it too fast. The barrel gets hotter than hell after a few shots.

I know nothing about bedding. It sounds like black magic to me.

As for cleaning the barrel, should I clean it for copper? Because it’s clean as far as carbon fouling and such.

 

[Smaug]

At 100 yards or less 8 MOA is fine

16” kill zone on a deer? I’d have to be a great shot, and I’m just OK. ;-)

 

[WisBorn]

Well, I guess the first thing I should do is not shoot it too fast. The barrel gets hotter than hell after a few shots.

I know nothing about bedding. It sounds like black magic to me.

As for cleaning the barrel, should I clean it for copper? Because it’s clean as far as carbon fouling and such.

I'm not sure if the 788 had a pressure point at the end/tip of the stock like the M700s did. You should be able to slide a dollar bill down the barrel channel from the pressure point to the action lug. If at any point the barrel is tight to the stock it can really throw off the accuracy.
I would go ahead and free float and glass bed the action. You will be satisfied with the results!!!

Slowing down your shooting giving the barrel time to cool down between three shot groups will also help.

 

[Chuck R.]

Well, I guess the first thing I should do is not shoot it too fast. The barrel gets hotter than hell after a few shots.

I know nothing about bedding. It sounds like black magic to me.

As for cleaning the barrel, should I clean it for copper? Because it’s clean as far as carbon fouling and such.

I always go for the cheapest/easiest solution 1st.

1. I check to ensure everything's tight with the scope and mounts.
2. Unless you're the original owner, I'd pull the barreled action out of the stock and make sure somebody hasn't "fixed it" already and the torque the action screws to about 35" Pounds.
3. I'd give it a good cleaning with a copper solvent. I normally use something like Butches Bore Shine first to get the carbon fouling out, dry the barrel completely, then Sweats 7.62 to get after the copper. Follow the instructions! I never go for completely clean, "light blue" is OK by me.

Then I'd retest, first taking a couple fouling shots, then test for groups at a semi-leisurely pace not letting the barrel heat up. I'd even try factory ammo to eliminate an issue with my loads, off the shelf factory should do better than 3MOA.

4. Check the size of your TGT in relation to your magnification and reticle size. With Lower power scopes I've gotten better groups with larger TGTs. IF it is a really low power scope, I've gone so far as to swap out to a higher magnification scope during load development. Then I zero for the load with the scope I intend to hunt with.

5. Don't take this wrong, but try handing the rifle to someone else. Sometimes I find a rifle that just doesn't agree with me.

IF it's still having issues and the rifle wasn't something I bought new, I might even have a smith look at it before I messed with the bedding. It could be an issue with the barrel/crown that no amount of bedding is going to cure. 6mm Rem is a pretty hot cartridge with varmint weight bullets, my 70 grain loads were doing 3600+ FPS and there could be some throat erosion going on depending on how often it was shot and how well maintained.

Also, it's not unusual for lighter barrels to require some pressure up front, which is why you see some stocks with "pads" towards the end of the forearm. For example, Rem M7s come with pressure pads up front due to the light whippy barrels they put on them. Sometimes removing the pressure pad just makes things worse and sometimes adding card stock to increase the pressure makes things better.

 

[Kevinq6]

3moa for 100yds will kill deer but I would do what Chuck says to try to improve the 6mm.

To technically answer the question I would prefer a .223 1moa gun and take careful shots inside 100yds. However, I would use a .243 or bigger.

 

[illinoisburt]

If you want the 223 then get one and enjoy it. There is nothing wrong with range toys. As for the old Remington, it's been my experience over the years (ugh, decades now) that scopes mounts and optics are often a culprit in poor shooting rifles. Don't assume because something is tight that it's not an issue. I've found plenty of times bases were in fact loose after removing the scope and rings due to 1 screw being too long and bottoming out before torquing down the base, or sometimes the bases and rings don't quite mesh like picatinny mixed with weaver. Sometimes they just happen to be junk like older 3 screw mounts that had a little oversized holes in case the action wasn't quite tapped square. Start with simply removing the old scope, rings, and bases. Pull the stock, clean out the barrel channel and lug area then reassemble. Tighten the front action screw first while putting rearward pressure on the barreled action to keep the lug fully seated. Sounds like a bit of hassle but you will thank yourself in the end.

Personally I would opt to change out old mounts completely with a solid rail base snd get matching rings to ensure a good foundation then add in a new scope from any of the better quality brands. Some older steel bases weren't the tightest specs and wear/tear or home gunsmithing didn't help their case.

I would start here with new screws and blue loctite:
https://www.egwguns.com/remington-788-long-action-picatinny-rail-0-moa

 

[plumberroy]

16” kill zone on a deer? I’d have to be a great shot, and I’m just OK. ;-)

8 M.O.A. at 100 yards is 8.38 inches just under the size of a paper plate. The approximate size of a whitetail deers kill zone. There have been hundreds of thousands of deer harvested with shotguns and slugs that struggle to shoot that well

 

[Hugger-4641]

Have you tried a different scope?
Back in early 90's I had a 742 in 30-06 that shot terrible. I bought it from a friend with a Tasco 3x9 already on it. I chased it all over the paper until I finally threw a new Weaver on it.
Then it got under 2moa with factory Win ammo. Something was wrong with that Tasco.

 

[Smaug]

Good thoughts here.

I will start with the scope rings. They are cheaper ones that I got so I could look through them in case the scope went out. Realistically, I’ll never do that, so I might as well start there. (They’re also kind of high…)

I’m just worried that I’m going to do all this stuff, spend hundreds of dollars and months chasing it down and it’s STILL not going to shoot. Then, I’ll kick myself for not spending it on the Ruger American Rifle Predator in .223 instead.

I’m going downstairs to get the rifle and get you guys some photos of it. Maybe something will pop out at you.

 

[bearcreek]

I have one rifle that would be OK for deer, my great uncle's old Remington 788 bolt action in 6 mm Rem. Problem is that it's not that accurate, even with handloads. Maybe 3 MoA at best.

I'm thinking my next rifle will be a 223 bolt gun, which is legal for deer here. The Ruger American are about a 1 MoA gun.

Shots on deer here are usually under 100 yards.

If you're going deer hunting, would you take the 3 MoA 6 mm or the 1 MoA 223?

If you're considering a new rifle purchase anyway, why limit yourself to a .223? Lot's of more appropriate options.

 

[AK Hunter]

I personally wouldn't use ether suggested guns but as long as you can consistently hit a fist sized target at 100 yds you can take deer with that gun.
I have to use straight walled rounds on public property so I'm hunting with the 350 Legend.