Is 5 or 6 really enough in today's world.

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Not being well versed in both is a personal problem that should be addressed. ;)

And given that choice, and you select the 5 round 38, Im going to hazard a guess, that your skill levels probably arent going to be up for whats about to come next.
You might be right.
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You never know... I completed "Advanced Combat" with my model 66.
Double-taps and reloads right along with the Glocks , sigs, and Caniks.
 
Not being well versed in both is a personal problem that should be addressed. ;)

And given that choice, and you select the 5 round 38, Im going to hazard a guess, that your skill levels probably arent going to be up for whats about to come next.
Yea that is a bit rough! I am sure there are some that are new to CC and were advised that a J Frame or similar is the perfect choice. Then only to find out it kicks hard and fails to practice as needed. I bet there are just as many Sub Compact 9mm shooters that cannot clear a malfunction or hit squat with it. However, there are some that chose a handgun because of their training and ability, muscle memory and proficiency with it.
 
I understand that there are a lot of people who are new to firearms, and in general, not gun people and dont really have an interest in them other than they were told they need one and thinking that because they have one they think they are armed. Realistically, anything they choose is really just a talisman.

As far as the last part, if you have any kind of real training, or even if you just try and figure things out for yourself, and work at things beyond basic bullseye, I just find it hard to believe that you would choose something like a 5 shot J frame for a "primary" gun. Back up, sure, if youre sentimental, but not as a primary, especially in this day and age with all the choices available to us, and with what you see going on, on a basically daily basis on the news and other places. You dont get to choose, the opposition does, and you get to deal with whatever you might get. Whether or not youre at least somewhat prepared, is entirely up to you.

And for the umpteenth time, you have absolutely no idea as to what you might get, anywhere you are, at any moment, so if youre the least bit serious, I would think you would work hard in practice beforehand, to try and be ahead of the curve and work on all sorts of things that will help you improve your overall skills, so you can deal with things if and when they should arise, without thought, instead of being caught flat footed and go into vapor lock.
 
As far as the last part, if you have any kind of real training, or even if you just try and figure things out for yourself, and work at things beyond basic bullseye, I just find it hard to believe that you would choose something like a 5 shot J frame for a "primary" gun.

Find it what you want.
End of thread.

See how easy that is??
 
Find it what you want.
End of thread.

See how easy that is??
Actually, its not an easy thing, unless youre one to just take the easy way out and do and/or go with what others tell you, and call it good with no effort beyond that.

This is something you need to find out for yourself, and it actually takes some hard work on your part. If you genuinely believe that a 5 shot J frame is the weapon of choice, for anything you might get given, I got nothing in it, you do what you think is best. Im not telling you to pick what I like, and I could care less if you do, that's my choice. All Im saying is, you need to actually put the time and effort in and do your own homework, and make your choices based on some sort of reality, not just assumption.
 
Actually, it's super easy, I decided long ago, and I "did all my homework" and "found out for myself" somewhat before the '90s ended.

So I don't even actually know what you are saying and how it even applies to me.

And to top it all off, I have higher-cap autos I could carry tomorrow. So thanks for offering to buy me one to use, but I am fine.


Now what? Besides "carry what you like and I'll do the same", which you essentially just now said and which this ALWAYS comes down to. Thanks for playing. I'll take the High Road and assume you are posting all this to inform others who may be somewhat newer to concealed carry.
 
As long as you continue to learn and dont stagnate. Ive learned a lot since the 90's. A LOT of changes in the past 20-30 years. ;)
 
What surprised me at first, but later made perfect sense, is that much of self defense training and skills from good firearm instructors has nothing to do with guns or fighting. The fight occurs after many other things have gone wrong.
That’s not to say that a fight is always avoidable, but, not to sound like Captain Obvious, reducing the risk of a fight is important.
 
I understand that there are a lot of people who are new to firearms, and in general, not gun people and dont really have an interest in them other than they were told they need one and thinking that because they have one they think they are armed. Realistically, anything they choose is really just a talisman.

As far as the last part, if you have any kind of real training, or even if you just try and figure things out for yourself, and work at things beyond basic bullseye, I just find it hard to believe that you would choose something like a 5 shot J frame for a "primary" gun. Back up, sure, if youre sentimental, but not as a primary, especially in this day and age with all the choices available to us, and with what you see going on, on a basically daily basis on the news and other places. You dont get to choose, the opposition does, and you get to deal with whatever you might get. Whether or not youre at least somewhat prepared, is entirely up to you.

And for the umpteenth time, you have absolutely no idea as to what you might get, anywhere you are, at any moment, so if youre the least bit serious, I would think you would work hard in practice beforehand, to try and be ahead of the curve and work on all sorts of things that will help you improve your overall skills, so you can deal with things if and when they should arise, without thought, instead of being caught flat footed and go into vapor lock.
I get what you’re saying now. I would like to mention though that what we are seeing now is not new! It is the 70’s and 80’s all over again! The crime ridden days of those eras was bad and probably for most here not experienced! It was for the most part stopped, controlled and now we are on a trend that has forfeited all those gains from effective crime fighting. I get this is alarming to some but for me it’s deja vous (sp?). The difference this time is that the good guys are much better armed. Very few carried CC in those days. Not until recently have things like “Must Issue” and “Constitutional Carry” become a reality. I am really big on mindset, training and preparation. I would not recommend what I carry to new shooters, there are better choices for a new shooter who is a blank slate and can learn any system. However, for someone trained and comfortable in a revolver I would not question that choice. I think the S&W 642/442 was the number one selling pistol for quite a few years. I can picture in my mind someone with a virtual new one they bought ten years ago, was given a box of ammo, went to the range once and still uses it to carry with the other half of that box of ammo. It happens but that is also the same person that would do the same thing with a different gun. Also probably not the person paying attention to this thread!
 
I get what you’re saying now. I would like to mention though that what we are seeing now is not new! It is the 70’s and 80’s all over again! The crime ridden days of those eras was bad and probably for most here not experienced! It was for the most part stopped, controlled and now we are on a trend that has forfeited all those gains from effective crime fighting. I get this is alarming to some but for me it’s deja vous (sp?). The difference this time is that the good guys are much better armed. Very few carried CC in those days. Not until recently have things like “Must Issue” and “Constitutional Carry” become a reality. I am really big on mindset, training and preparation. I would not recommend what I carry to new shooters, there are better choices for a new shooter who is a blank slate and can learn any system. However, for someone trained and comfortable in a revolver I would not question that choice. I think the S&W 642/442 was the number one selling pistol for quite a few years. I can picture in my mind someone with a virtual new one they bought ten years ago, was given a box of ammo, went to the range once and still uses it to carry with the other half of that box of ammo. It happens but that is also the same person that would do the same thing with a different gun. Also probably not the person paying attention to this thread!
What was the crime rate in the 70's and 80's and what is it now? Not a trick question. I really want to know.
 
Risk management? ;)
Risk management has nothing to do with having to fight once it starts. This isnt about risk management, its about having the skills to hopefully come out on the right side of the fight, should you be unfortunate enough to need to.

That is what most seem to be lost on here. You arent preparing for the easy stuff you think youre prepared for or likely to get, you do your best to prepare for the hard stuff, so you're at least somewhat prepared for anything you might get. At least youll have probably done some of it before in practice so youre somewhat familiar and comfortable with it and its not the first time youre having to wing something at the worst possible moment.

Risk management simply assumes you will be able to avoid the bad things, which is basically fantasy. I hate to tell you, but bad things happen everywhere, and all it takes, is for you to be unlucky enough for it to be your turn in the barrel. ;).
 
Oh - my risk management is so poor that I post this from beyond the grave!
5 shots hasn't done well enough until now.
I wish you had got to me sooner...

One day I'll die and nothing I ate, drank, carried or did/didn't do will matter.

Have a great weekend, good sir.
And also to anyone reading.


Safe travels to all and hope none of this ever comes up for any of you as far as gun capacity is concerned. Tune in next week; same Bat time, same Bat channel.
 
Risk management has nothing to do with having to fight once it starts. This isnt about risk management, its about having the skills to hopefully come out on the right side of the fight, should you be unfortunate enough to need to.

That is what most seem to be lost on here. You arent preparing for the easy stuff you think youre prepared for or likely to get, you do your best to prepare for the hard stuff, so you're at least somewhat prepared for anything you might get. At least youll have probably done some of it before in practice so youre somewhat familiar and comfortable with it and its not the first time youre having to wing something at the worst possible moment.

Risk management simply assumes you will be able to avoid the bad things, which is basically fantasy. I hate to tell you, but bad things happen everywhere, and all it takes, is for you to be unlucky enough for it to be your turn in the barrel. ;).
I'm more than prepared for what's likely, probable, and has happened in the past instead of in imaginations. If you feel like you need to be prepared to take on a drug cartel, more power to you. If you feel that that it's probable that you'll be in a prolonged gun fight to the death with multiple armed attackers intent on killing you, by all means be prepared. I don't understand the need to try and convince others that what they choose to carry isn't good enough especially when you have no facts or data to back that up.
 
What was the crime rate in the 70's and 80's and what is it now?
I can speak to what I know. The Homicide rate in NYC is 1/8th that of 1993 which was the peak of the crack days. At that time I worked in East New York Brooklyn which was for that year the homicide capital of the US. That was the peak year, it started to decline after that as did associated crime. Less drugs, less killing, less theft and robbery. It is always related. The so called “Broken Windows Theory of Policing” did in fact work. Anyone who has ever visited Times Square 42nd Street from 1970 to around 1995 vs today can speak to the difference. I know from visits and conferences as I was part of a Harvard School of Criminal Justice Study in mid to late 90’s that similar situations existed in Seattle, Chicago and and in some level San Diego and Little Rock. I don’t know about every city in the US. It was a specific Community Policing Project that involved all these places. Would meet and compare notes with representatives from these places periodically. The study compared our efforts and progress. It was a tiny part of the policing effort going on in my city but I was able to gain insight as to other places.

Fast forward to the Ferguson Affair and things are slowly going back to what they were. Not as bad yet but not exactly much from keeping that from happening. Places like Chicago, Philly and others are off the hook. Places like Atlanta are have grown so fast that a comparison is probably not possible, it’s several times larger then the 70’s thru 90’s.

Thing is from my observation is that some places that used to be nice are deteriorating. I am sure that is very disheartening to experience that. To tie it in I also understand the need people feel to arm themselves. When you are used to no crime a few incidents can be scary. Hope this gives you some insight. From my point of view it is frustrating, not easy to see decades or hard work get flushed so fast. I did however learn survival skills and I don’t have the level of fear that some not familiar with it might.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/nyregion/east-new-york-precinct-no-murders.html

https://nypost.com/2017/12/13/the-r...rder-was-king-of-new-york-in-the-80s-and-90s/
Good Reading
 
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I'm more than prepared for what's likely, probable, and has happened in the past instead of in imaginations. If you feel like you need to be prepared to take on a drug cartel, more power to you. If you feel that that it's probable that you'll be in a prolonged gun fight to the death with multiple armed attackers intent on killing you, by all means be prepared. I don't understand the need to try and convince others that what they choose to carry isn't good enough especially when you have no facts or data to back that up.
Look, Im either not getting my point across, or some of you are just being obtuse. The capacity is simply a side issue here, and one that becomes an obvious issue, if youre really trying to stay ahead of the curve and learning things in regular practice.

Everyone is so wrapped up in the number of rounds being enough, or too many (and how to many is a bad thing is really a puzzle to me), and ignoring the elephant in the room, your skills with what you have and the ability to deal with "anything" you might get. Not just the one or two things you "might" plan for and "maybe" practice for. And basing things on most of the people I know that carry a gun, not much thought has gone into that, other than throwing a gun in a pocket or maybe on their belt.

If you can solve the problem in 1 round, great. Works great for a gun of any capacity. But what happens when you get something that requires you to shoot like you never have had to before, and youre not shooting those tight little groups on a piece of paper like you always do and brag about, and youre burning up the ammo you do have, trying to solve the problem?

What it sounds like to me is, for many, its more that the convenience and unlikelihood of ever needing it, is more important than actually having to use it and the skills needed to have a real chance of pulling things off, when you actually do need it.

Yea, you "have" a gun. So what?

What actually scares me more than the bad guys, is all the good guys carrying a gun these days, with no experience or training, who think they are armed because of it, and arent competent in both handling and shooting, and might decide to whip that thing out, and start shooting, whether they meant to or not.
 
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I'd like to go on record to say that I have never said that less reliable rounds > more reliable rounds. That is not an argument I am making.

Platform, relative convenience and other considerations can come into play.

If you are comfortable with the reliability, convenience and ballistics of the higher-cap gun for concealed carry then by all means go that route and more power to you. Same for the lower-cap crowd. Best wishes to us all. I don't know why this hill is so incredibly popular to die on...


If you're more scared of the typical legal gun owner than the typical miscreant, I think your fears may very well be misplaced. But like most anything else in life I am perfectly fine agreeing to disagree.
 
Everyone is so wrapped up in the number of rounds being enough, or too many (and how to many is a bad thing is really a puzzle to me), and ignoring the elephant in the room, your skills with what you have and the ability to deal with "anything" you might get.

The disadvantage with too many rounds, I thought was obvious. A lot of people wouldn't carry if the only option was a full size gun and a spare mag. The odds of multiple attackers coming in here and trying to kill me right now is pretty low, and if the only option was a big heavy gun, I wouldn't be carrying at all.

That, and at my desk, I'm at arms length from a rifle. The J frame is getting me between here and the bathroom.

I ventured out for a 10 minute trip to Dollar General for a coke, and I was at arm's length from a full size pistol on the way there, and the way back. There was 1-2 minutes I was exposed to the possibility of multiple attackers without a full size gun. If that happened, then hopefully, I could handle it with a J frame and 6 rounds. It was the chance I took.
 
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Everyone is so wrapped up in the number of rounds being enough, or too many (and how to many is a bad thing is really a puzzle to me), and ignoring the elephant in the room, your skills with what you have and the ability to deal with "anything" you might get. Not just the one or two things you "might" plan for and "maybe" practice for. And basing things on most of the people I know that carry a gun, not much thought has gone into that, other than throwing a gun in a pocket or maybe on their belt.

You keep saying that, but you keep saying it in the context of a discussion about capacity. You won't find much argument about the value of training, and if that's your whole point, then you've made it well. But - and correct me if I'm wrong - it seems that your argument is that round count plays an integral role in being "prepared for everything".

My counter argument is "So what's the limiting principle?" The argument is used against five round guns, or six round guns, or eight round guns, or ten round guns. At what point do we say "This is a problem I can't fix with round count" because we simply don't have the time and/or opportunity to fire dozens of rounds at massed attackers?

The short version, I suppose, is that "Train for anything" looks good on paper but almost immediately becomes completely impractical.
 
What Im saying about capacity is, once you realize that the second the problem becomes just slightly more complicated, the round counts are likely going to go up. And if youre one that thinks youll only need one round per target and that anyone shot will instantly fall down and quit, I think youre seriously deceiving yourself and not being realistic at all.

"Train for anything", is simply working on as many different things as you can in practice beforehand, so that your conscious you and your subconscious brain are familiar and comfortable with shooting in ways that you may not normally shoot, so you can do it without giving it a thought as you need to. If youre skills are based on aimed, slow fire at specific distances, youre going to be greatly lacking, the second you need to quickly draw and shoot, draw, move, and shoot as you go, shoot without using your sights, shooting quickly, accurately, and repetitively in any way you have to shoot, etc.

None of that is difficult at all either, once youve done it enough to get a feel for it and maintain and continue to improve on things. But of course, if you're convinced you're a great shot based on how you shoot slow fire groups, and youve never done anything beyond that before, its a lot easier just to blow it off and say its a waste of time.

"Scenarios" aren't what youre training for, its what you gain from doing all sorts of things that you haven't done before, and they are just a basic problem that you are attempting to learn and gain skills and insights from, even if they may seem silly, so if and when you do have to just go with the flow, this isnt the first time youre doing it, or at least something similar to it, and you act instead of freezing up.

If thats impractical, I really dont see that theres any point in going on here. This isnt something that you learn once 30 years ago and youre good forever. This is an ever, ongoing thing, with constant refreshing and continued learning, and there is no diploma at the end. Just more work.

I get it, not everyone is that dedicated or interested in things, but if youre carrying a gun, whether you believe it or not, its still your responsibility to be reasonably competent and proficient with it and you really should be.
 
So what exactly changed 30 years ago?
Because they had multiple assailants back then, too.


And if I train and upgrade faithfully, should I therefore be 3x more prepared at 90 y.o. than at 30 y.o.? Is this a constant like whole life insurance value?? It is possible some people don't feel a need to strive for that particular goal. YMMV.
 
Obviously some dont. And why do people get so butt hurt and want to argue about it when you bring it up?

And a lot has changed in 30 years. Guns, gear, ways of doing things, etc. What have you missed if you think it hasn't?
 
What hasn't changed is that I survived.
Or that I cared what Joe HiCap thinks.


Give me a status report on 1/20/2053. I'll be waiting.
Send it in a prayer if I'm not still active on the board.
 
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