Is 5 or 6 really enough in today's world.

Status
Not open for further replies.
wayneinFL said:
If you want to use that youtube video as an example, the guy came from his business and involved himself In robbery across the street. He didn't just bumble into this situation. There's no reason he couldn't have picked up a full size pistol or an AR or shotgun for that matter.

Just like I'm carrying a 6 shot revolver and if someone started something across the street, I'd grab a full size pistol or a rifle before going outside.
Click to expand...
His situation is irrelevant. However you end up in the problem, it is what it is. Once the problem starts, you have to solve it with what you have, hardware and software wise (there's a lot more to this than just the gun ;)). Theres no time out, or I gotta go get this or that.

One big point of that video is, he continued to shoot until the threat was down, as it should be. The boy didnt just fall down at the first round and it was over. He fired more rounds in the initial burst putting him down, than your revolvers normally carry, and that was just one guy, and he still required more after.

One shot stopping is basically a fantasy, and it simply takes what it takes to solve the problem, and that comes down to whether or not you have enough onboard ammo to accomplish that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GEM
Kleanbore said:
Are you somehow under the impression that persons with real worlds experience, such as Delf Bryce and Jim Cirillo, developed their shooting skills in actual combat, or that it is likely for anyone to do so?
Click to expand...

I don’t understand your point.

Cirillo carried a model 10 as I recall.

Bryce carried a .44 Hand ejector.
 
The point is, do you train ahead? Or do you just trust to luck, and hope youre as good as you think, with nothing to back that up?

Did Bryce and Cirillo have and continue to train during their careers? Or did they just wing everything and hope?

Id be willing to bet too, that what they carried then, wouldnt likely be their choices today, with what would be available to them.
 
From "Tales of the Stakeout Squad" page 41.

"If your concerned with concealment, your firearm should be reduced in size and bulk but not in power.I would not use anything below a 9mm, and I would consider even a 9mm marginal and would try to use +P or better ammo in it.The Glock 27 in .40 S&W would be my choice.In my own case, if I were still on the NYCPD Stakeout Squad, the mini Glock would be my second gun and the Glock 21 in .45 ACP would be my main weapon. My present favorite carry guns are a Smith & Wesson double-action-only .40 S&W and a Glock 23 in .40 S&W". From "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights page 116.
Click to expand...
 
Glock did not even exist when Jim was doing his thing. And the likelihood of a Stakeout Squad ever existing in this day and age is below zero. Jim is not talking about CCW, he is talking about Undercover Work with the direct intention of catching armed robberies in progress. Whole different ball of wax there.

A good man, a true warrior! He has done tremendous important ballistic work based on real life experimentation at a time where RNL ammo was the standard.
 
trackskippy said:
And how many posting here fit that bill, and are telling us that 5 or 6 is all youll ever need because that's what they choose to carry, and based on what?

Considering the average hit ratio for supposedly "trained" police is something like 35% these days, which is up about 10% from the 25% back in the revolver days. Apply that math to your carry gun, and then factor in your "actual" skill level, and what do you think you'll have?


LOL. Yea thats a fair "apples to apples" comparison. :p


I just came across this video in a thread here in the Strategies section. (https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/competitive-shooter-in-sd-shooting.914968/)

This is a direct link to it on YouTube.



Supposedly a high-level competitive shooter against a couple of guys trying to rob him. Put yourself in his place and with your skill levels, with what you carry, and how well do you think you would make out?

Oh, he fired a tad more than 5 or 6 rounds too, and Im also betting he was probably a tad above the 35% hit level too. ;)

And towards the end, and like whats been posted here a couple of times, the narrator commented that he has never seen a reload done in a civilian gun fight in all the videos hes done the breakdowns on, but he also said if this guy had a gun with a lesser capacity, it wouldnt likely have ended as it did.
Click to expand...


Thank you for putting that up. Kudos to the fellow for a very definite "win" for the good guys.

I'm not sure that this is an argument for high capacity though. The first guy who got shot ran off immediately. The second guy who got shot fell over immediately. I have nothing at all against the mag dump, but there is no way of knowing whether it changed the outcome of the fight. The guy who ran off, well, it's hard to know what he was doing after he stopped. Apparently whatever it was, it deserved another round from the defender, which ended the fight for good. So that's three shots that were definitely required. The rest are up for debate, and I'm not going to pick a side. If nothing else, it's more evidence that people tend to use the rounds in their gun, whatever their number.

<edit> I will note that many of the folks at THR who argue against revolvers are not themselves carrying guns which hold 18 rounds. Should they now be accused of inadequate preparation?
 
Last edited:
Kleanbore said:
Jim carried four handguns at the same time.
Not in the comments qutoed above.
Click to expand...
He was talking about duty choices if he was still on the Stakeout Squad! Clear to me! But just in case you’re right! All of the pistols mentioned are large bore medium capacity firearms, not a 16 shot 9mm. Anyhow, Jim was able to use weapons as a part of the ESU Unit like the .30 Carbine, Ithaca 12 Gauge 14”, etc. More often than not that’s what the entire Squad used. Jim was the most famous but they all got to choose their weapons, he was part of a team. He also hand-loaded his own ammo for his revolvers. Something that would land any current NYC Cop in jail. Different time, different purpose from the nature of this CCW Conversation. Kinda Off Topic
 
.38 Special said:
Thank you for putting that up. Kudos to the fellow for a very definite "win" for the good guys.

I'm not sure that this is an argument for high capacity though. The first guy who got shot ran off immediately. The second guy who got shot fell over immediately. I have nothing at all against the mag dump, but there is no way of knowing whether it changed the outcome of the fight. The guy who ran off, well, it's hard to know what he was doing after he stopped. Apparently whatever it was, it deserved another round from the defender, which ended the fight for good. So that's three shots that were definitely required. The rest are up for debate, and I'm not going to pick a side. If nothing else, it's more evidence that people tend to use the rounds in their gun, whatever their number.
Click to expand...
I think what is missed by a lot of people is, youre very likely going to have to shoot more than just once per individual, and you need to be conditioned to do so beforehand, and to do so until you get a good result.

Handgun rounds are poor stoppers, and the targets that will bring about a true, one shot stop, or close to it, are small and difficult enough to hit when everything is still and easy. Your odds go way up and theirs go down, if you can quickly put a good burst into them and then continue to do so, should it be necessary.

Realistically, you should be accustomed to shooting quickly and repetitively, and they are going to be shot at least a couple of times before anyone even knows if youre ahead or behind or not, and that includes the person being shot. They are a threat until they are not, and you need to keep shooting as he did. In the middle of something like what went on above, thats not the time to be stingy with your ammo, or worse, find out you dont have enough.

They may well be done on the first shot, but you likely wont even see a reaction from the first round before the second or third round are already following immediately behind, and are going to make sure and increase your chances.

As I said before, if you work through different things in practice, you quickly understand how fast the ammo goes, especially if you add just a little complexity to the problem. Personally, Id prefer a buffer to allow some leeway for anything unexpected, than to have a dead gun and find that things still going on.

We need to be realistic and honest with ourselves as well, and take a hard look at what our skills with what we choose to carry really are. Think about how you practice for something like this (assuming you do) and then watch whats going on and what hes doing in the clip above. He didn't get those skills just by reading or thinking about them. And luckily for him, his hard work paid off.
 
Kleanbore said:
No. Read the book. He carried concealed after retiring. The Stakeout Squad was long gone.
Click to expand...
Was talking about this quote. He carried many things years after, for personal and financial reasons. He started an ammunition company, did lectures and wrote books. Some choices were financial. All of us looked up to him but he was one of many. I know a retired Detective that was in multiple shootings in the Bronx over a career, wrote a book too. Most decorated NYPD Detective in History! He still carry’s his Model 36 daily.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/bl...alph-friedman-nypds-most-decorated-detective/
 
Last edited:
My personal assessment is that a J or LCR in my pocket is in addition to whatever pistol is on my belt. I like it as an option hand in pocket, at gas stations especially. Of late the belt pistol is a P365XL and one spare mag. I don't consider this excessive. So while I have never found myself in a situation I like this level of preparedness.

Except when on the mower, then I have a 5 shot 410 on my belt for bad snakes.
 
SW is introducing a 22 round 5.7 pistol so you won't get killed on DA STREET! Does competition get you killed on te DA STREET?
 
trackskippy said:
I think what is missed by a lot of people is, youre very likely going to have to shoot more than just once per individual, and you need to be conditioned to do so beforehand, and to do so until you get a good result.

Handgun rounds are poor stoppers, and the targets that will bring about a true, one shot stop, or close to it, are small and difficult enough to hit when everything is still and easy. Your odds go way up and theirs go down, if you can quickly put a good burst into them and then continue to do so, should it be necessary.

Realistically, you should be accustomed to shooting quickly and repetitively, and they are going to be shot at least a couple of times before anyone even knows if youre ahead or behind or not, and that includes the person being shot. They are a threat until they are not, and you need to keep shooting as he did. In the middle of something like what went on above, thats not the time to be stingy with your ammo, or worse, find out you dont have enough.

They may well be done on the first shot, but you likely wont even see a reaction from the first round before the second or third round are already following immediately behind, and are going to make sure and increase your chances.

As I said before, if you work through different things in practice, you quickly understand how fast the ammo goes, especially if you add just a little complexity to the problem. Personally, Id prefer a buffer to allow some leeway for anything unexpected, than to have a dead gun and find that things still going on.

We need to be realistic and honest with ourselves as well, and take a hard look at what our skills with what we choose to carry really are. Think about how you practice for something like this (assuming you do) and then watch whats going on and what hes doing in the clip above. He didn't get those skills just by reading or thinking about them. And luckily for him, his hard work paid off.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe. Again, we know that most "gunfights" are stopped before they start by the mere presence of a gun, and that most gunfights which involve actual gunfire require only a few rounds. Yes, there are fights which require more, and there are gunfights which require exceptional skill to win. Again, though, those are so rare as to make the video you posted quite notable. I certainly am not against training and equipping for that sort of thing, but am not ready to argue that anyone who doesn't is gambling with his life.
 
When training time is limited, it makes sense to focus on the types of scenarios that one is most likely to face.
 
And then again, at some point, you have to make the training time available to train for the worst-case scenario.

I hated training for NBC (later CBR) warfare when I was in the military. Was a nuclear, chemical or bio-weapon attack likely? No. But it was good to know. And we had the equipment ready.
 
mcb said:
10 pages in. Do we know if only 5 or 6 rounds is going to get you killed on the streets?
Click to expand...

When they get killed they don't post anymore and running out of ammo defending against thugs aint news (that's against the narrative), just that they got killed.
If they survive they won't post about it for legal reasons (boring answer) but its really because they would have to admit they were wrong. :neener:
 
I think that the “do you have enough” arguement goes both ways. For those that say that 6 isn’t enough, where is the data that says 15 _is_ enough? Or is the right number 30? Or 45?

A lot of the discussion is revolvers vs autos, but many autos are less than 10 rounds. My S&W .380 is 6+1, my .45 1911’s are 8+1, etc. Everything else being equal, more rounds before a reload is obviously better. The issue is that everything else isn’t equal and people make different trade-offs in their assessments of caliber, rounds carried, concealability, etc.
 
I think the main problem here isnt really about capacity, but that people are not being realistic with themselves in their assessments of what they choose to use and why, their actual, true abilities with whatever that is, and the dynamics of an active gunfight. And if youve been striving to actually deal with something like that in regular practice, that alone should settle the capacity issue. ;)

What you do easily at your leisure once in a while at the range vs what goes on and is required from you in a gunfight are totally different things, and if youre not at least somewhat familiar with whats needed from you shooting wise in those instances, the number of rounds in the gun probably arent really going to matter much.

If you arent willing to put the time and effort in to try and be the best you can be, in a realistic manner, with whatever it is you choose to carry, you might as well carry it on a string around your neck like a talisman. It will likely be about as useful as one anyway.
 
Kleanbore said:
That misses the point.
Click to expand...

No I did not miss the point - but you did miss mine. 15 is obviously better than 6 (all things being equal - which they are not). If six must be justified as “enough”, then so should 15. Additionally, Where is the “good enough” point? 9? 12? 15? 100?

Your point is that 6 is not enough and 15/17 is. So I want to know the basis for your claim…
 
Kawamax said:
No I did not miss the point - but you did miss mine. 15 is obviously better than 6 (all things being equal - which they are not). If six must be justified as “enough”, then so should 15. Additionally, Where is the “good enough” point? 9? 12? 15? 100?

Your point is that 6 is not enough and 15/17 is. So I want to know the basis for your claim…
Click to expand...

Ask him how many he carries in his gun.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

G
  • Locked
Another just because gun with some practical use but really? 50 Cal
Replies
13
Views
648
NIGHTLORD40K
NIGHTLORD40K
357smallbore
  • Locked
Is "six" still enough for defense?
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Replies
189
Views
8K
Robert
Robert
P
  • Locked
Leather Information Wanted
2
Replies
25
Views
2K
Keith
K
L
  • Locked
Is 6 Shots Really Enough?
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
Replies
573
Views
38K
JShirley
JShirley
E
  • Locked
38 spc followed up with 357
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
Yo Mama
Yo Mama
Back
Top