Is 5 or 6 really enough in today's world.

[jar]

Haha!

Revolvers are what I started with, and carried for a long time. But they're also a huge part of the hidden reason for threads like this.

We aren't hearing many people saying "Why should I load more than 6 rounds into my G19? 6 is enough!"

Another way to put it would be: If your revolver has a 10 round capacity, would you only load 5? Simple answer is no.

Kinda, sorta.

I have several 1911 magazines that are rated as eight rounders but I only load seven rounds. It is an issue of reliability over capacity.

For me, the capacity in rounds of my carry handgun is right near the very bottom of my list. How well I control the particular handgun, reliability, access, comfort, conceal-ability all are far more important to me than the number of rounds. In fact there are a couple 9mm parabellums where I have magazines that hold ten rounds and also magazines that hold more rounds but usually it is the ten round magazine that I select as my carry choice.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Training should be based on worst case scenarios-"A 6"6" giant on PCP" as one Jeet June Do instructor put it. It usually seems when you train to that standard then real world encounters are not that bad. "5 or 6 enough ?" Ask Wild Bill Hickok or any other pistoleros from his era.
Again, only the hits count. I recall an article in American Handgunner which quoted a top notch firearms instructor at a police academy saying of his students "We couldn't get them to group." Too much the attitude "Put enough lead in the air and you'll hit something." Ed McGivern emphasized that the fast and fancy he shooting did was essentially slowfire speeded up.
I have seen enough videos of shooting where the perp is struck by one shot-from I presume a 38/9MM. They scream, run for a distance, then collapse. I think we're too hung up on the "one shot /struck by lightning" notion.

 

[wcwhitey]

It is all preparing for the unknown because if you knew and still went you would be a fool. I see so many guesses and generalities it makes my head spin. The likelihood you will ever encounter more than one person intent on doing you harm is basically zero in a public place. Now if I was behind the counter of a convenience store that’s different. At home yes push in robberies tend to be by multiple individuals. The thing there is they are there because they know what you have. Gun pictures on FB maybe or loose lips about a collection of value. From personal experience bad things happen all the time but they are coincidental not planned armed attacks by groups of people. It’s individuals needing cash, drugs or mentally ill. For you to be targeted by an organized group means you are either really valuable or up to an off the books money making operation your self (I hope everyone understands what I mean here).
The most important thing to remember is know your local and area of operation. If you live in meth country and run the risk of facing a hard up tweeter know that! If you live in an urban area and run the risk of crossing the path of the local street dealer or more likely strung out customers know that. The crazy thing about organized gangs is they don’t tend to do random things, they target for a reason. They exist for profit, no profit in random violence.
In my entire LE career I have only seen one person killed randomly by being shot and that involved the shooter being on a psychotropic drug. I have investigated many shooting and homicides they are almost never random. So the trick is to know what you will most likely be facing and prepare accordingly in an educated manner. Everything is not an option, one cannot be prepared for everything. Just having a firearm, any firearm puts your survival potential a thousand percent better than the guy who does not. If you think you need 16 better to stay home or move.

 

[aaaaa]

It is all preparing for the unknown because if you knew and still went you would be a fool. I see so many guesses and generalities it makes my head spin. The likelihood you will ever encounter more than one person intent on doing you harm is basically zero in a public place. Now if I was behind the counter of a convenience store that’s different. At home yes push in robberies tend to be by multiple individuals. The thing there is they are there because they know what you have. Gun pictures on FB maybe or loose lips about a collection of value. From personal experience bad things happen all the time but they are coincidental not planned armed attacks by groups of people. It’s individuals needing cash, drugs or mentally ill. For you to be targeted by an organized group means you are either really valuable or up to an off the books money making operation your self (I hope everyone understands what I mean here).
The most important thing to remember is know your local and area of operation. If you live in meth country and run the risk of facing a hard up tweeter know that! If you live in an urban area and run the risk of crossing the path of the local street dealer or more likely strung out customers know that. The crazy thing about organized gangs is they don’t tend to do random things, they target for a reason. They exist for profit, no profit in random violence.
In my entire LE career I have only seen one person killed randomly by being shot and that involved the shooter being on a psychotropic drug. I have investigated many shooting and homicides they are almost never random. So the trick is to know what you will most likely be facing and prepare accordingly in an educated manner. Everything is not an option, one cannot be prepared for everything. Just having a firearm, any firearm puts your survival potential a thousand percent better than the guy who does not. If you think you need 16 better to stay home or move.

Good analysis, and supports my carrying a J-frame but having a 9mm 15-round with spar mag in the bedroom. One other thing is if one lives in a bad area the drug dealer hit could get you by mistake (likewise a SWAT team making a mistake to the wrong address). These are unlikely but not a zero probability.

 

[Kleanbore]

The likelihood you will ever encounter more than one person intent on doing you harm is basically zero in a public place.

Actually, the likelihood of an attack by two or more persons is roughly the same as, if not a little higher than, the likelihood of an attack by one person.

 

[wcwhitey]

Actually, the likelihood of an attack by two or more persons is roughly the same as, if not a little higher than, the likelihood of an attack by one person.

Not true at all! Unless you are talking about a bar fight or something you should not be involved in. As a target the vast majority of crimes in which you will need a firearm are coincidental, wrong place wrong time. If one does his due diligence and does not frequent shady paces or the liquor store at the wee hours you are very unlikely to be in a situation of self defense. If you watch trends there is a disturbing trend of looting mobs and group shoplifting I will give you that. But in those situations you are not the target. If you’re not the target use the exit. You do know where the exits are when you sit down to dinner right? You do sit in the back and refuse the table by the register I hope! I am a huge proponent of knowing your surroundings. I have not seen anywhere in this post or the many I the threads that anyone has articulated and situation as an armed civilian minding his own business who is alert to his surroundings is being confronted by a group of individuals in a public place. If and when that happens I will put a paycheck that there is more to that story!
All that aside I am fully aware that things do happen. There is no way to know, avoid or prepare for everything. I make no stake in the capacity issue. To me that falls under the “carry the biggest gun in the most effective caliber you can comfortably and shoot well”. That thought requires a lifestyle choice in gear, clothing and training. It also requires that someone understands their physical limits and acts accordingly. There are so many considerations when deciding to be armed that capacity is almost not important in my mind. If you have taken all the correct steps I will never fault or question someone who chooses something like a J Frame or Single Stack 9mm.

I just wanted to mention that I confined my comments to public places. Things like Home Invasions are a complete different situation. Also one that generally involves the possibility of multiple attackers. It also negates the need for a concealed firearm and unlike a self defense shooting in public puts one on usually pretty solid legal ground. Go big in the home, no reason not too!

 

[Kleanbore]

Not true at all! Unless you are talking about a bar fight or something you should not be involved in.

Check your facts.

We see car-jackings, burglaries, and muggings performed by two or more people as often as by individuals.

Think about it: if you were going to try to get into a house, take things and get out as quickly as possible without being caught, would you prefer to go it alone or to have a lookout and maybe a driver?

Pay more attention to the news.

 

[wcwhitey]

Check your facts.

We see car-jackings, burglaries, and muggings performed by two or more people as often as by individuals.

Think about it: if you were going to try to get into a house, take things and get out as quickly as possible without being caught, would you prefer to go it alone or to have a lookout and maybe a driver?

Pay more attention to the news.

Really, nice comment from a moderator to someone who spent a life fighting that crime, investigating it and living it. Keep watching the news. What you see there is exactly what they want you to see, or not see! Carry on!

 

[Kleanbore]

Really, nice comment from a moderator to someone who spent a life fighting that crime, investigating it and living it.

Most of the LEOs whom I have known have never been shot at by anyone.

That does not change the circumstances of use of force incidents that have occurred.

 

[wcwhitey]

Most of the LEOs whom I have known have never been shot at by anyone.

That does not change the circumstances of use of force incidents that have occurred.

Trying to apply some logic to this. Not being shot at lasted till my second day of field training, btw. I have seen more shootings in a week than some have in a career but that’s not what this is about. It also not about me. Are these carjackings happening in your neighborhood? What are the crime trends of your A/O. If one is serious about being safe it’s easy to look up. Crime trends do come and go, bad people are always looking for a way to get it easy. Make your choices based on what is happening around you not the news from Atlanta, NY, Chicago or LA. If you read any of my comments you would understand that it’s not a one size fits all. It takes some work!
Besides is it legal to shoot someone stealing your car where you live, not every locale is the same. Stand your ground may be the law in some places others have a duty to retreat. It’s more than just about how many rounds in the gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

Are these carjackings happening in your neighborhood?

We have them, but the scary ones I remember were happening in Philadelphia last year.

Make your choices based on what is happening around you not the news from Atlanta, NY, Chicago or LA.

O'Fallon, MO is a prosperous area in St. Charles County, which is west of St. Louis County Mo. They are extremely serious about fighting crime there. Two days ago, a home was randomly invaded in the area by five suspects from other areas. The suspects have been caught.

Besides is it legal to shoot someone stealing your car where you live, not every locale is the same.

To my knowledge, shooting at someone stealing a car is lawful only in Texas, and there, only under certain circumstances. But car-jacking is not stealing. It is lawful to shoot to defend against car-jacking, which is a crime against persons, anywhere in the US, as long one meets all of the requirements of lawful self defense, though it may not be lawful to have a gun.

We had a scary video here last year that showed a ride-share driver arriving home at night who was accosted by a group of armed car-jackers in the Philadelphia area.. He was lucky--they fled when he fired at them. More than five shots.

 

[crstrode]

Actually, the likelihood of an attack by two or more persons is roughly the same as, if not a little higher than, the likelihood of an attack by one person.

Then two or three bullets will do just fine.

 

[Kleanbore]

Then two or three bullets will do just fine.

If and only if each one strikes and destroys one or more critical internal body elements, which will be invisible and moving rapidly in six degrees of freedom. That's very largely a matter of chance, and that's why defenders shoot several times rapidly.

 

[.38 Special]

He was lucky--they fled when he fired at them. More than five shots.

Well, no. He wasn't lucky. He was incredibly unlucky in that he had to use a gun at all. The fact that his attackers fled was completely unremarkable, as that is a nearly universal behavior. I wonder how many shots had been fired before the fleeing commenced. In nearly all cases, it happens immediately.

 

[Kleanbore]

The fact that his attackers fled was completely unremarkable, as that is a nearly universal behavior.

What makes you think so?

 

[.38 Special]

What makes you think so?

Having watched or read literally hundreds of instances of defensive shootings. Pitched, public gun battles between criminals and legally armed citizens are exceptionally rare.

 

[Kleanbore]

Having watched or read literally hundreds of instances of defensive shootings.

Really? Video, I presume. To where do they try to flee? How? What do they do if the defender is between the escape route and the attackers? Do they expect to outrun bullets? Do they flee if they are closer to their victim than to safety? Would you bet your life on it?

Many of our videos show attackers who keeps coming until they drop.

 

[wcwhitey]

@Kleanbore

“To my knowledge, shooting at someone stealing a car is lawful only in Texas, and there, only under certain circumstances. But car-jacking is not stealing. It is lawful to shoot to defend against car-jacking, which is a crime against persons, anywhere in the US, as long one meets all of the requirements of lawful self defense, though it may not be lawful to have a gun.”

Depends! At gunpoint certainly, even knifepoint. Not all carjacking events are with weapons. Sometimes they are just strong arm pulled from a car and drive off. In that case it could be troublesome in some places using a pistol. Believe it or not In some places a homeowner has a duty to retreat if possible and they will be judged on this efforts. I mentioned home invasions earlier and that it is a good example of there is no good reason to skimp on the size or capacity of gun used for that purpose.

Maybe it is my background and experience with the legal system that keeps me from being too pro tacticool. I encourage being armed at all times. I just see and read too many arbitrary choices by folks that in my eyes are not clearly thought out. Sometimes a gun is too small or too big for a situation. A 5 shot Airweight J Frame is not a proper choice for some for many reasons. Same can be said for a Glock 19 in the hands of someone without the proper skill set. So I “assume” that a person makes a knowledgeable choice for what works for them. We are fortunate that the carry options are almost endless now from micro, subcompact to full size guns in effective calibers. But full circle, it’s just a tool in the security box! If you have to use it all other tools have failed!

“Really? Video, I presume. To where do they try to flee? How? What do they do if the defender is between the escape route and the attackers? Do they expect to outrun bullets? Do they flee if they are closer to their victim than to safety? Would you bet your life on it?”

Here is a good point that everyone should know. Perpetrators are bad shots! The more distance you can put between you and a gun will increase your chance of survival exponentially! That has been proven over history! I think we get caught up between the concept of survival and that of a gunfight. Ultimately your goal should to not be harmed. If the only way to assure that is to do harm yourself so be it. Be quicker and be better. But if a person puts those Nikes to use from the first second the chance of survival is greater than the chance of slugging it out. Here is this “caveat” (seems to be a popular word lately). Not everyone can flee! So that should figure strongly in your decision! Not having to shoot it out is by far a more desired outcome health wise, legally and financially!

 

[pa4445]

I have had a couple of occasions where people cruise down the street breaking into cars, one guy driving the other one or two getting in the cars.
Also individuals one at a time.
One reason I carry is so I am armed when I arrive home.

 

[.38 Special]

Really? Video, I presume. To where do they try to flee? How? What do they do if the defender is between the escape route and the attackers? Do they expect to outrun bullets? Do they flee if they are closer to their victim than to safety? Would you bet your life on it?

Many of our videos show attackers who keeps coming until they drop.

Please link to some of these videos.

 

[Kleanbore]

Sometimes they are just strong arm pulled from a car and drive off. In that case it could be troublesome in some places using a pistol.

Once the defender is no longer in his occupied car, deadly force is not a lawful option, except in Texas under some circumstances.

Some Philadelphians have been filmed shooting at car-jackers. who were driving away with their cars.

Believe it or not In some places a homeowner has a duty to retreat if possible

I do not believe that there are any remaining US jurisdictions that impose a duty to retreat from one's domicile.

The duty to retreat does exist in other circumstances in some places, and I did specify "as long one meets all of the requirements of lawful self defense".

 

[wcwhitey]

Once the defender is no longer in his occupied car, deadly force is not a lawful option, except in Texas under some circumstances.

Some Philadelphians have been filmed shooting at car-jackers. who were driving away with their cars.

I do not believe that there are any remaining US jurisdictions that impose a duty to retreat from one's domicile.

The duty to retreat does exist in other circumstances in some places, and I did specify "as long one meets all of the requirements of lawful self defense".

Mine does unfortunately! In public anyway! But it’s been beaten many times depending on certain factors. Being elderly unable to retreat is one! I have enjoyed our conversation. So many things to consider in the realm of concealed carry and personal defense I hope it gives food for thought to some. So we can stop debating round count!

 

[PzGren]

The discussion took an interesting turn from if five or six rounds are enough in today's world to legislative matters of self-defense.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…The discussion took an interesting turn from if five or six rounds are enough in today's world…"

Not to mention people convinced someone with a 5-shot .357 Magnum tucked in their bathrobe pocket is somehow "undergunned" simply rolling the garbage cans out to curbside at 6:30 am.

 

[Old Dog]

Not to mention people convinced someone with a 5-shot .357 Magnum tucked in their bathrobe pocket is somehow "undergunned" simply rolling the garbage cans out to curbside at 6:30 am.

Look, let's not get off the rails -- pretty sure most of us here understand that we're talking about concealed carriers out and about doing business downtown, elsewhere in our communities or otherwise in urban areas during business hours or in the evening after dark for sustained periods, not just the three minutes it might take to roll a couple bins from next to the garage out to the curb.

We all have our own personal risk management assessments that we do preparatory to rolling the garbage and recycling cans out to the curb at zero-dark-thirty in the morning before leaving for work or hitting up our corner convenience store for that (hopefully) fifteen-minute run for a half-gallon of milk or some feminine hygiene products for the wife after dark.