Japanese Murder Rates...More complicated than I thought!

[Titan6]

??

I did not say there was no such category in the US, only Japan. Did you read the link I posted?

 

[Ieyasu]

I did not say there was no such category in the US, only Japan. Did you read the link I posted?

I understood and yes I read the link. However...

It seems the original poster's purpose in posting all this stuff is to claim that the "Japanese murder rate is actually 2 to 3 times higher than is actually reported." And by implication that their rate isn't that different from ours. So if you're going to start including missing persons on one side of the equation you need to do it on the other. Generally speaking, missing person stats aren't discussed when comparing homicide rates. It seems pointless. In other words, the plight of the missing appears to be the same in both countries (including "recovery rates") so I don't understand why that info was introduced.

 

[Titan6]

Ah I understand now. The point I was making was the missing person argument is one of the strawmen arguments frequently introduced, with the belief that most Japanese buildings are 15% constructed out of missing murder victims. But since no records are kept there is no real proof or analysis.

Like I said Japanese murder rates are much lower than the US. But again, I have absolutely no desire to live there or live like the Japanese.

 

[Ieyasu]

The point I was making was the missing person argument is one of the strawmen arguments frequently introduced, with the belief that most Japanese buildings are 15% constructed out of missing murder victims.

That's funny. Hadn't heard that one. That'd be a heck of a lot of bodies!

 

[fireflyfather]

Anyone who has spent any time in a major Japanese city would probably give up trying to count how many bodies. That's a WHOLE LOT of concrete.

 

[Hugo]

Probably more like the mob hiding the bodies buried in the dirt just before they pour the concrete. More under the foundations than in them.

 

[Hugo]

Update/new thought.

What are the gun crime rates like in Japan? Very rare I bet, but surely once in a while some drunk Yakuza screws up. I recall some Gangster shot the Mayor of Nakasaki a few years ago over a pothole damaging his Mercedes.

Anyone know a cop in Japan? What is an average day like for SWAT teams in Japan?
I'm guessing like the UK only special teams are called in to deal with gun related crimes.

 

[mortablunt]

@ JellyJar

It is because of those facts that I believe crime to be a mixed function of society and genetics. In Japan, the culture is very different. The imperative is to shut up, do your duty, not stand out, and not bring shame to you associates. There is a lot more of a sort of institutionalized "bullying" which amounts to pressuring people not to act up.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

f gun control were really such an important factor in Japan's low crime, it would also be hard to explain why Japan's murder rate is higher than Britain's (a shooter's paradise compared to Japan). Both Switzerland and Israel have many more guns per capita than even America, and require citizens to own or train with pistols and fully automatic rifles. Yet these countries have less murder and violent crime than Japan, and
almost no gun crime.


rarely have i seen more fertilizer in one thread the above being just one particularly egregious piece

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

 

[daorhgih]

@ #34

It does need some sort of citation to verify. How high is Japan's number for visas granted to Mexican citizens to emigrate? The Pacific Ocean is a hard fence to climb. But I've seen Japan, and America (hie us back to 1960) is better in EVERY respect. Maybe if the Japs would apologize and recognize their many affronts against Humankind, their earth-quake / tsunami rate would decline. L1S1

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I am CERTAINLY no expert, but my limited experiences (readings on Bushido, history and personal friends of Asian heritage) have lead me to believe that you can't even begin to understand Asian culture unless you "get it" with regard to how incredibly important personal honor is to them.

Modern American culture is clueless wrt. this concept.
___


you certainly qualify as an expert in this thread


and i am not being sarcastic

 

[Sky]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz1UxL70csR

Is a crime stats in reference to post 34

f gun control were really such an important factor in Japan's low crime, it would also be hard to explain why Japan's murder rate is higher than Britain's (a shooter's paradise compared to Japan). Both Switzerland and Israel have many more guns per capita than even America, and require citizens to own or train with pistols and fully automatic rifles. Yet these countries have less murder and violent crime than Japan, and
almost no gun crime.

England my England what has thou become.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Vermont is noted as the US state with traditionally the least restrictive gun laws in the US. In 2009 VT was listed by the FBI UCR as having a murder rate of 1.1 per 100,000 population per year. That compares favorably with the official rates for UK and Japan.

A quality of life issue is intentional death: people killing people intentionally by murder or suicide.

Intentional Death Rates (Homicide + Suicide) per 100,000 per year. 
(posted at Wikipedia)

 Japanese Suicide rate (2010) 24.6 
Japanese Homicide rate (2009)  0.86 
Intentional Death rate        25.46 

     U.S. Suicide rate (2005) 11.1 
    U.S. Homicide rate (2009)  5.0 
Intentional Death rate        16.1

The point here is the anti-gunners' mantra that the US suicide and homicide rates are caused by "lack of gun laws" since most US killers (whether killing themself or another) chose what is seen as the most effective weapon: the gun; but, that does not explain Japan's suicide rate.

Criminologist Marvin E. Wolfgang (who personally hated guns) did an in-depth study of 588 homicides in Philadelphia:
""More than the availability of a shooting weapon is involved in
homicide. ... The type of weapon used appears to be, in part, the
culmination of assault intentions or events and is only
superficially related to causality. ... It is the contention of
this observer that few homicides due to shooting could be avoided
merely if a firearm were not immediately present....""

I would extend the mantra of Motive and Opportunity trump Means in homicide to the analysis of suicides as well and would say the difference between Japan and USA goes far beyond gun laws, and that the gun laws are an irrelevant distraction that cause us to miss real social differences and actual causal factors in intentional deaths.

 

[mortablunt]

@ Sky

I was in England in October 2010 and in late June 2011. It's a depressing, defeatist place that loves to grumble. Think of it as a moody old man with a mid life crisis who just can't be bothered to do anything other than complain and shrink.

@ Carl N. Brown

Nice work. Could you dig up some info about crime and injury rates that don't involve homicide and suicide? I'd like to find some intel on what gun ownership has to do with crimes other than murder and tragedies other than suicide.

 

[Neverwinter]

Criminologist Marvin E. Wolfgang (who personally hated guns) did an in-depth study of 588 homicides in Philadelphia:
""More than the availability of a shooting weapon is involved in
homicide. ... The type of weapon used appears to be, in part, the
culmination of assault intentions or events and is only
superficially related to causality. ... It is the contention of
this observer that few homicides due to shooting could be avoided
merely if a firearm were not immediately present....""

I would extend the mantra of Motive and Opportunity trump Means in homicide to the analysis of suicides as well and would say the difference between Japan and USA goes far beyond gun laws, and that the gun laws are an irrelevant distraction that cause us to miss real social differences and actual causal factors in intentional deaths.

As members of the this forum, we may be more susceptible to overestimation of the role that gun laws play in the multivariate problem of violent crime. Obviously it has a part, but the role of gun laws can certainly be overshadowed by more powerful socioeconomic factors.

It does need some sort of citation to verify.

The citations are right within the linked wikipedia page. Or is this just a troll?

 

[MachIVshooter]

Wow, back from the grave on this one. lol.

If there's one thing I've personally deduced from years of reading over the statistics and arguments, it's this:

-When firearms are more available (not legal, just available), homicide rates tend to be higher.

-When firearms are less available, assaults with other weapons become the norm.

-When firearms are more available lawfully, overall violent crime tends to be lower. The opposite seems to hold true.

-Suicide rates are indifferent to the availability or legality of firearms in a given nation. There are too many other ways to off oneself, many of them preferable to leaving a mess for someone to find for those "considerate" folks.


I have no doubt that murder rates would be lower if firearms didn't exist. But legislation doesn't make them go away. As well, remove the great equalizer, and you have the strong preying on the weak, as it was before the days of guns. As a very fit adult male in my prime, I'd have little to worry about, but my good friend of 77 years old who is down to 140 lbs and rather feeble after a bout with cancer and a triple bypass would have no chance against a younger, stronger assailant without his weapon.

My father would almost certainly be alive if guns didn't exist, because the 5'7", 135 pound teenager who broke into his home and shot him would not have stood a chance in hand to hand combat. But a lot of other good people in this world would not be had they not been able to defend themselves with a firearm.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Obviously shooting homicides would be fewer if guns did not exist. Most criminal violence appears to not be on the model of smaller, weaker attacking the larger, stronger, but the opposite. Plus gangs attacking in superior numbers. If Wolfgang is correct that most homicides due to shooting would be accomplished by other means, and if Lott is correct that defensive firearms prevent or deter some murders, the net result if guns did not exist could be more murders just different means. Plus the experience with various prohibition experiments has been that if enough of the public feels they want the prohibited item, prohibitions breed black markets.

 

[Zoogster]

In Japan there is a strong culture of shame, honor, and culturally ingrained inhibition. The group, the family, the company (many companies structure themselves as if they are family there and are a lot more involved and intrusive in employer's lives) everyone else matters more than the individual.
There is some good aspects from this, but also many bad. Privacy is not expected, and most people feel a great desire to live their life according to the expectations of others. The average individual is as a result not free, living their lives within the constraints of expectations from all sides.
I would venture this lack of real freedom is a big reason Japan leads the world in escapist fantasy without all that real life burden, such as in anime.


The US is in many ways the opposite. Where the average individual is selfish, it's more about them. The economy even survives on this, with a lot of it based on appealing to the purchaser that can be manipulated into buying excessive goods and services for themselves. Me, me, me, indulge. The world revolves around the individual.
However there is a lot of good as well, some of the greatest personal freedoms, liberties, and ingrained rights for the individual.
A society that historically prides itself on giving the individual as many freedoms as possible.
A society where it is better to let 100 guilty go free than imprison 1 innocent man, even though statistically it would be safer to wrongfully convict and ruin or end an individual's life for the benefit of society.
Many of the things that make America great are because the rights and liberties of the individual are more important than limiting freedom to reduce potential risk. (The war on drugs and now the war on terrorism is changing this though.)



The result of these two cultural extremes is that in Japan when someone snaps they are more likely to feel like everyone else is more important, they are letting others down, all the expectations down, they are shamed, and they are more likely to kill themselves.
In Japan they are raised to know they are but an ant, and they let the colony down.
In the US when someone snaps they more often see it more from a selfish perspective, they are the most important, something/someone screwed them over, they are angry, and they lash out at another person. This makes them more likely to kill someone else.
In the US more people see themselves as the most important part of the society.
It has little to do with firearms. In Japan they live in a culturally restrictive prison, and kill themselves. In the US they live in a self-centric society and kill someone else.

Now one could argue that one result is better in Japan, even with a higher death rate, as people have more right to kill themselves than other people. But you have to trade an awful lot of freedom for it as it stems from cultural belief. You would have to remove much of the beliefs that make America great to reach that point.



That said most of the US has a much lower murder rate than the official one. There is some subcultures of US society that are responsible for a large portion of murders that disproportionally raise the rate as a whole and make it appear worse than reality. Most of their victims are other members of that same subculture.
Much of this is centered around the gang, hip-hop, culture. Since much of that is by choice, those not making the choice to be around or in that live in a society with an actually much lower rate.
In fact I think the average person is more likely to be victimized by a complete stranger in parts of Europe than in most of America. In America a large portion of victims participate in the glorified gang or drug world by choice. But statistics don't factor this in. This gives the impression that the USA is more dangerous than it actually is to regular people.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

great point

That said most of the US has a much lower murder rate than the official one. There is some subcultures of US society that are responsible for a large portion of murders that disproportionally raise the rate as a whole and make it appear worse than reality. Most of their victims are other members of that same subculture.

much over looked truth bears repeating

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A co-worker of mine told me that one of her neighbors was retired from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and he had told her that he relocated to our part of East Tennessee because of the low crime rate. My hometown (~45,000 population) once went three years without a homicide, and runs between one to at most three per year (a bad run was 8 in 3 years 2004-2006), usually people involved as perp or victim in the illegal drug trade.

 

[JellyJar]

Black on black homicides are the reason the US's homicide rate is higher than most western European countries:

http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2003/08/racist-recent-post-on-samizdata.html