Just out of curiosity

[indoorsoccerfrea]

generally if it is a private business, you have to leave if they ask you to otherwise its trespassing. There are some states where you have to abide by them, but I don't believe Ohio is one of them...don't quote me on that...

 

[Strings]

*sigh*

Penalties for carrying without a permit vary from state to state, In WI, carrying a concealed weapon without a "permit"* is a Class A Misdemeanor:

The penalty for a Class A misdemeanor may include a fine up to $10,000, or imprisonment for up to 9 months, or both; however, for a repeat offender, the term of imprisonment may increase up to 2 years

As a nice aside, here in the Land of Cheese, no county or municipality can pass a gun law more restrictive gun law than the state's.


*I used quotes here because there IS no permit up here: you're either a LEO, or you're illegal...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If you have a ccp and have a ccw on your person and go into a place of business that has the universal no gun sign [the pistol with a red stripe through it]on the front door and you get caught what are the penalties?

It depends on the state. Different states have different laws.

Some states require that the sign be in a certain form or have certain "magic words" to be effective. Some states don't.

In some states it's civil trespass unless you're asked to leave and refuse. In other state, merely entering the premises is a criminal act.

 

[Corey]

With regard to the OP, I admire and respect activists who push for our rights. However, in this situation I do not have the time or the money to be the test case so I have a permit and will leave that issue to others.

 

[eye5600]

Well glockman19, with regard to California, you're wrong about knives. It's a felony to carry a fixed blade knife concealed.

I've never understood about these knife bans except in the context of partial enforcement. If you want to carry a carving knife from your own house across the public street to your best buddy's BBQ, it's a crime? I know most have clauses permitting knives used in employment which let chefs off the hook, but it's a big, complicated world out there, and knives are among the most basic of tools.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

People post crap like that on THR all the time; "I don't NEED a permit to CCW." Unless you live in AK or VT, yes, you do.

Actually, here in MT you do not need a permit to CCW outside of town limits (about 90% of the state).

 

[richyoung]

we have laws like CCW is not legal without a permit. That you can't speed in a school zone. Stuff like that.

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things the Founding Fathers would whip our asses for accepting, after they risked everything to leave freedom to us....

 

[Frank Ettin]

...the Founding Fathers would whip our asses for accepting,...

[1] And just who appointed you spokesman for the Founding Fathers?

[2] Okay, don't accept it. Carry illegally, get caught and go to jail.

[3] Or try raising a few million dollars and fight it in court.

 

[Dokkalfar]

People post crap like that on THR all the time; "I don't NEED a permit to CCW." Unless you live in AK or VT, yes, you do.

No, you dont need a permit to ccw. you do need a permit to carry legally, under laws which alot of people construe as unconstitutional under the 2A. laws dont stop people from doing things. laws give the state the 'right' to harrass you if you are breaking them.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...you dont need a permit to ccw. you do need a permit to carry legally, under laws which alot of people construe as unconstitutional under the 2A...

And what those people think is or is not constitutional doesn't mean a thing. What matters is what a court thinks; and unless a court having jurisdiction rules that a law is unconstitutional, the law is constitutional, valid and enforceable. In the real world, in real life, the opinion of a court about the constitutionality of a law will affect the lives and property of real people. In the real world, in real life, your opinion about the constitutionality of a law and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

...laws give the state the 'right' to harrass you if you are breaking them.

The state can do more than merely harass. It can arrest you, put you on trial, take your property, send you to jail, strip you of your rights in the future, cost you a whole lot of money to defend yourself, and generally do things that will change your life and affect you for the rest of your life.

 

[deadin]

You know, I'm kind of glad to have the "scoff-laws" around.
It gives the authorities something to keep them busy and no time to figure out ways to harass me.

 

[Dokkalfar]

fiddletown, i do realize that, i was merely stating the viewpoint from alot of people who carry without a permit. i personally dont carry, as im only 20 so i cant even get a chl anyway

and yea, the state can do alot to you, thats why the US Constitution was written to prevent the government from doing what it is doing now. if the people dont stand up for their rights, they wont have any rights to stand up for.

here is a video i saw, that i think is something alot of people need to see. youtube search for "overview of america." it has 4 parts, here's the link to the first one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTQQJOEn9yI

 

[mljdeckard]

On THR, we follow the law, period. In every state except VT and AK, it is illegal to carry concealed without a permit. Complain, grumble about the way things SHOULD be, but FOLLOW THE LAW ANYWAY. Ted Nugent proudly proclaims that the Second Amendment is his concealed carry permit, but I'm sure he has a couple of state-issued permits anyway. Whether or not bowing to authority in being forced to apply for permits is a good or bad thing is mostly theoretical. The fact that 40 of 50 states now have shall-issue laws, and the rest are looking foolish is GOOD for us. NOT BAD.

In Utah, carrying without a permit is a misdemeanor, posted areas other than where prohibited by state or federal law hold no force of law. If they post no carry, and you do anyway, they can ask ask you to leave. If you don't, you are guilty of trespassing.

 

[Art Eatman]

Discussing laws is fine. Getting into political philosophy is not.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Prince Yamato is wrong about Texas.

Only the State can create a felony.

Carrying without a licence is a class A misdemeanor.

Actually, I'm correct. If there is a sign that says something to the effect of, "The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony..."

then you are guilty of a felony. If you have a CCW, you can ignore those signs. Otherwise, you've committed a felony.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...the state can do alot to you, thats why the US Constitution was written to prevent the government from doing what it is doing now...

Really? Exactly what is the state doing now that the Constitution is supposed to prevent? And if the Constitution was written to prevent it, why isn't it doing so? Hint, the Constitution isn't self-implementing.

...if the people dont stand up for their rights, they wont have any rights to stand up for....

What is this really supposed to mean? How do you suggest that people stand up for their rights? By illegally carrying a gun and going to jail? How is that standing up for one's rights?

Standing up for your rights is a good thing. But you can't do that effectively unless you understand how things actually are and work in the real world. You can't fix a carburetor unless you understand how it functions.

Twenty years ago, one could not legally carry a concealed gun in most states. Now one can legally in most states (at least with a permit that is relatively easy to obtain). This right was won by people who understood and could effectively use the political process.

Dick Heller and his lawyers won a Supreme Court decision for the first time directly holding that the Second Amendment is an individual right and rejecting the "collective right" view that had become popular and had been driving anti-gun legislation and court decisions. This can become a powerful tool in our efforts to preserve the RKBA against a generally increasingly antagonistic society. Heller and his lawyers accomplished this by understanding the law and how it works and making appropriate use of it.

If we are to win (as I hope we do and think we should) in the courts, it will be because we have the help of wise and skillful lawyers who understand the law and legal processes. If we are to win in the political arena, it will be because we have the help of people who understand the world of politics and operate effectively in that world. But if we deny the reality of the courts and politics, we will not be effective and will be buried by those interests who can more adroitly "work the system."

At the end of the day, the RKBA will be protected by those who understand and can manage and affect reality, and not by a lot of slogans and empty rhetoric.

 

[Marlboro Guns]

"if they are carrying without a permit, they are knowingly breaking the law. It doesn't matter if you think the law is screwed up or not, you are Joe Citizen. Joe Citizen must obey the law. If you want to change the law, run for office instead of talking about philosophical meaning of the 2nd Amend. Actions means alot more than words."


While I will agree that actions speak louder than words, I don't think we should do anything blindly just because it is a law.
If the law said you had to kill innocent people and children, would you do it?
If you think this is a far fetched situation, soldiers in Germany who ran execution camps during WWII had to decide to either blindly follow an order and murder countless innocents or knowingly disobey a direct order (which is also against the law). Would you just obey the law in this situation?

The law is not always absolute; stand up for what you think is right. Each person decides the morality, benefits and consequences of following each law according to his/her own situation. While I cannot condone carrying illegally, some might have even saved their own lives or the lives of others by doing so.

Although they can change the consequences, all the laws in the world can't take away each person's freedom to make his/her own (hopefully educated) decisions on what to do, which laws to follow, and what is right or wrong. We will be fully held accountable for own actions regardless so I would hope everyone makes the best possible decision they possibly can. Stay safe.

 

[Clermont]

In New York State, with regards to carrying a handgun without a "concealed weapons permit" which New York City issues as a "carry permit" and elsewhere in New York State which counties issue as a "unrestricted license", it is a felony if the handgun is loaded or the handgun is unloaded but cartridges for the handgun are also being carried. An unloaded handgun is a misdemeanor. New York City does not recognize unrestricted permits issued elsewhere in the state, with exceptions, so being in New York City with a handgun and a unrestricted license issued elsewhere in the state is the equivalent of carrying an unregistered handgun. The same charges, as described earlier, would apply.

 

[bdickens]

Oh, you just had to make me do it, didn't you? May I refer you to: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf for your reading pleasure.

PC W6.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's
control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned
by the person or under the person's control.
(a-I) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly,
or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a
motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's
control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor
that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71 .01.
(a2) For purposes of this section, "premises includes real property
and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless
of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection,
"recreational vehiclen means a motor vehicle primarily designed as
temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living
quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term
includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home,
and horse trailer with living quarters.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this
section is a Class A misdemeanor.(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

As referenced by the part I so graciously highlighted for your edification, unlawful carrying is a class A misdemeanor. Only if you carry unlicenced into a place that sells alchoholic beverages does it become a third-degree felony.

And:

LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE
LGC 5229.001. FIREARMS; EXPLOSIVES.
(a) A municipality may
not adopt regulations relating to the transfer, private ownership,
keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, ammunition,
or firearm supplies.(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
(1) require residents or public employees to be armed for personal
or national defense, law enforcement, or another lawful purpose;
(2) regulate the discharge of firearms within the limits of the
municipality;
(3) regulate the use of property, the location of a business, or uses
at a business under the municipality's fire code, zoning ordinance, or
land-use regulations as long as the code, ordinance, or regulations are
not used to circumvent the intent of Subsection (a) or Subdivision (5)
of this subsection;
(4) regulate the use of firearms in the case of an insurrection, riot,
or natural disaster if the municipality finds the regulations necessary to
protect public health and safety;
(5) regulate the storage or transportation of explosives to protect
public health and safety, except that 25 pounds or less of black powder
for each private residence and 50 pounds or less of black powder for
each retail dealer are not subject to regulation; or
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a
person licensed to cany a concealed handgun under Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental
body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic
event.
(c) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(6) does not apply if the
firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a
lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event and the firearm is of the
type commonly used in the activity.
(d) The exception provided by Subsection (b)(4) does not authorize
the seizure or confiscation of any firearm or ammunition from an individual
who is lawfully carrying or possessing the firearm or ammunition.

Local governments in Texas can not make up their own firearms laws except in the most narrow ways related to the discharge thereof and at government meetings.

And Finally:

LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE* CHAPTER 51. GENERAL POWERS OF MUNICIPALITIES

Sec.A51.012. ORDINANCES AND REGULATIONS.
A The municipality may adopt an ordinance, act, law, or regulation, not inconsistent with state law, that is necessary for the government, interest,
welfare, or good order of the municipality as a body politic.
Acts 1987, 70th Leg., ch. 149, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1987.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/lg.toc.htm

Sec.A1.08.AAPREEMPTION.A No governmental subdivision or
agency may enact or enforce a law that makes any conduct covered by
this code an offense subject to a criminal penalty. This section
shall apply only as long as the law governing the conduct proscribed
by this code is legally enforceable.
Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/pdf/pe.001.00.000001.00.pdf

 

[Prince Yamato]

Oh, you just had to make me do it, didn't you?

I think there is some miscommunication here. You are correct and I agree with you; unlicensed carry in TX is a class A misdemeanor. I was saying that if you carried unlicensed into certain places, like the bars you pointed out, or places with the sign I was talking about, it becomes a felony.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I don't think we should do anything blindly just because it is a law. If the law said you had to kill innocent people and children, would you do it?...

Come on, let's have some sense of proportion here. A law requiring an honest person to get a readily available permit to legally carry a loaded weapon concealed in public is a whole lot different from a law requiring one to kill children.

Everyone has free will. But everyone should also be prepared to accept the consequences of his choices. But folks making blustering, specious claims that the law doesn't apply ("The Second Amendment is all I need") don't accomplish anything, except perhaps to help make the gun culture look silly. If these folks think that the law is improper, there are both political and judicial avenues of redress.

 

[bdickens]

My apologies, Prince Yamato. Miscommunication indeed. I thought you were referring to municipalities making laws that are stricter than State Law. I'm sure glad Texas has it's act together in that regard. Imagine the confusion that reigns in those states where a city can make up it's own laws ans State Law be damned.

 

[Dokkalfar]

Come on, let's have some sense of proportion here. A law requiring an honest person to get a readily available permit to legally carry a loaded weapon concealed in public is a whole lot different from a law requiring one to kill children.

Is it really that different? same situation, simply varying degrees of application. the point is that laws arent necessarily something that should be enacted, and different people see the morality of the laws differently. take FOCA for example. that law (if passed) will not allow people who object to abortion on moral or other grounds, from not performing an abortion, or at least offering abortion services. FOCA is child-killing. when the government starts taking away rights, are you just going to sit there and take it?

a threat to freedom anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere. Have you ever heard of Martin Niemöller?

and those permits are not that readily availible, even in texas. i CANNOT obtain one, as i am not 21 yet. that cuts out a large percentage of the population, many of which do have the responsibility necessary to have and keep one. in order to obtain the permit as well, one has to shell out a good $130+ at least, havent really checked into it. that may not be much, but for alot of people that is quite a bit of change.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Is it really that different?...

Yes it really is. And the FOCA is also really different.

...when the government starts taking away rights, are you just going to sit there and take it? ...

It depends on whether they are really rights, what they, what options one has, and what one can do about it. What do you propose to do about the limitations in various states on carrying concealed weapons in public?

...a threat to freedom anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere....

A nice slogan, but what is it really supposed to mean? Aren't all laws threats to freedom insofar as they impose a penalty, and thus a price, on someone doing something he would rather be free to do?

...Have you ever heard of Martin Niemöller?

And just what does an anti-Nazi Lutheran minister have to do with the subject?

...and those permits are not that readily availible, even in texas. i CANNOT obtain one, as i am not 21 yet. that cuts out a large percentage of the population, many of which do have the responsibility necessary to have and keep one....

So are you suggesting that children be able to obtain a concealed weapons permit? What age limit would you place on lawfully carrying a concealed weapon in public?

 

[Jim K]

I sometimes hope those "I gotta right" guys will have the opportunity to explain their ideas to a judge. Then they can explain to a prison warden.

I am so sure the officials will be persuaded by their eloquent ranting and raving that they might earn a place in the prison insanity ward.

Jim