Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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To be fair, I was confusing Alex with another person in regards to the alien comment...however, still, I feel there are far more well-spoken individuals who can better deliver the message. Alex has little credibility and is seen by many an overly-paranoid individual with a weak grasp on reality at times.
Yes 10,000 better speakers and more rational speakers for sure; but at least he is speaking to others while the 10,000 remain mostly silent. Some non gun owners think the NRA is a radical bunch of misfits too. Just listen to some of the efforts to disparage the latest NRA's lawsuit against Batf.
Seemed like I heard some place that only around 10% supported the effort to form the Republic during 1776. Think there were as many who wanted King George and some colonist even fought as a Red coats. The typical middle just kept their head downs and tried to remain out of trouble. There are always those who think or know something but do nothing.
I applaud anyone who goes against the press who wants to demonize all gun owners as crazies but as said before, "wish there were others with the same media outlets" and a better acceptability quotient. Just because of who he is turns many off. There was a report or study in psychology 101 that said those who tell an unknown truth are at first ignored, then demonized before finally the truth is accepted; so many times the truth is not an easy road..
I think around October 2010 I heard a broadcast where he was ranting about gold and silver going up to rapidly in 2011. Wish I would have had more faith in what he said then!
Anyway friends of gun owners are not always visible so again glad someone is at least trying on air (media) the 2d amendment and efforts to infringe; it should be the message and not the messenger but alas that is not always the case. Thought the video was at least an attempt at trying to point out and explain Batf's actions on the boarder and some of the whistle blowers, to include captured cartel members I found interesting.
Seemed like I heard some place that only around 10% supported the effort to form the Republic during 1776. Think there were as many who wanted King George and some colonist even fought as a Red coats. The typical middle just kept their head downs and tried to remain out of trouble. There are always those who think or know something but do nothing.
I applaud anyone who goes against the press who wants to demonize all gun owners as crazies but as said before, "wish there were others with the same media outlets" and a better acceptability quotient. Just because of who he is turns many off. There was a report or study in psychology 101 that said those who tell an unknown truth are at first ignored, then demonized before finally the truth is accepted; so many times the truth is not an easy road..
I think around October 2010 I heard a broadcast where he was ranting about gold and silver going up to rapidly in 2011. Wish I would have had more faith in what he said then!
Anyway friends of gun owners are not always visible so again glad someone is at least trying on air (media) the 2d amendment and efforts to infringe; it should be the message and not the messenger but alas that is not always the case. Thought the video was at least an attempt at trying to point out and explain Batf's actions on the boarder and some of the whistle blowers, to include captured cartel members I found interesting.
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http://news.yahoo.com/top-mexico-tr...U3ZjU3BHBzdGNhdAN1cwRwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3
Humberto Loya in 1998, granting Loya and top cartel chiefs immunity for providing information about their rivals.
Some of this stuff has been brought up in this thread already but had a different source than Yahoo News. As usual there will be people who can not believe the dept of corruption or ill-conceived sting operations.
Humberto Loya in 1998, granting Loya and top cartel chiefs immunity for providing information about their rivals.
Some of this stuff has been brought up in this thread already but had a different source than Yahoo News. As usual there will be people who can not believe the dept of corruption or ill-conceived sting operations.
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Neverwinter
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It's not in the report. That is because the conclusion that anyone could be theoretically be a terrorist is a useless conclusion to make.
I quoted portions of the report to illustrate why your objection to the report is puzzling. It specifically mentions law abiding gun owners being involved with stockpiling separately from the extremists. Have you been misled by your sources?
It is easy for someone to claim that they are telling the truth. It is even easier to claim persecution when people debunk those "truths".
That might be confirmation bias.
Ignition Override
Member
My concern is that the US public's short attention span will keep Eric Holder and others from being held accountable.
The media is filled with reports of the US' former AAA rating, a possible double-dip recession and jobs.
Or is there still hope that the public will demand the heads of the highest political appointees?
I doubt that most of the public heard, or can comprehend (or if so, that they even care) that the main operation was a sham, meant to point the finger only at US gun stores.
The media is filled with reports of the US' former AAA rating, a possible double-dip recession and jobs.
Or is there still hope that the public will demand the heads of the highest political appointees?
I doubt that most of the public heard, or can comprehend (or if so, that they even care) that the main operation was a sham, meant to point the finger only at US gun stores.
alsaqr
Member
Everyone who cares about this operation should read the entire congressional staff report. It contains no political stuff, rumors, distortions or lies. Yep, it's long and boring:
http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/FINAL_FINAL.pdf
http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/FINAL_FINAL.pdf
Neverwinter
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jerkface11
Member
Is this the same Alex Jones who rants about George W. Bush sacrificing children to an Owl God?
No. that's a made up Alex Jones. This might be due to the fact that he got film of members of the "Bohemian Grove" (which Bush Sr. and Jr. have attended) performing a mock human sacrifice to a giant owl god statue. It's crazy alright, but not because he filmed it.
Mike1234567
member
As LKB3d alludes to: Just because the very thought of this sounds ludicrous, strange and insane doesn't mean certain people don't practice sick/perverse rituals. And the accusation isn't sacrificing "children" but fake dummies of them. We have some very, very sick and dangerous folks running our government.
But... we've gone political and it's time to go back on track.
How 'bout them Justice Officials, huh??
Carl N. Brown
Member
This Alex Jones? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Jones_(radio_host)
The Alex Jones featured in the IFC (Independent Film Channel) special "New World Order"? http://www.ifc.com/new-world-order/about-the-show.php
Alex Jones may believe the sky is blue and water is wet, but some of his other beliefs will be used to discredit that.
The sky is blue, water is wet, and Operation Fast & Furious was criminal, and we don't need distractions like citing 9/11 truthers.
The Alex Jones featured in the IFC (Independent Film Channel) special "New World Order"? http://www.ifc.com/new-world-order/about-the-show.php
Alex Jones may believe the sky is blue and water is wet, but some of his other beliefs will be used to discredit that.
The sky is blue, water is wet, and Operation Fast & Furious was criminal, and we don't need distractions like citing 9/11 truthers.
Quote from neverwinter:
I don't have any objection to the report per se. I object to the way a report like this from an agency of the federal government has been and will doubtlessly continue to be twisted by so many media outlets to lump law abiding gun owners like me in with extremist nuts. I consider the report to be irresponsible, in spite of the disclaimers. And now people living in states bordering Mexico buying more than one semiauto rifle/carbine (excepting .22) within 5 days will be checked out by BATFE, as will those who make bulk purchases of ammo. I don't know the specifics, i.e. what constitutes a bulk ammo purchase, but since I own a few combloc weapons it is much less expensive to order ammo online by the case than to buy it any other way. Is a case a bulk ammo purchase? I haven't studied it enough to know.
I see infringement on the 2nd Amendment based on a criminal enterprise run by the federal government, and it appears to me the report may be a part of that enterprise, whether originally intended as such or not. OFF, Castaway and other illegal operations are nothing less than a very serious attempt to strip us of much of our remaining 2nd Amendment rights.
I don't have any objection to the report per se. I object to the way a report like this from an agency of the federal government has been and will doubtlessly continue to be twisted by so many media outlets to lump law abiding gun owners like me in with extremist nuts. I consider the report to be irresponsible, in spite of the disclaimers. And now people living in states bordering Mexico buying more than one semiauto rifle/carbine (excepting .22) within 5 days will be checked out by BATFE, as will those who make bulk purchases of ammo. I don't know the specifics, i.e. what constitutes a bulk ammo purchase, but since I own a few combloc weapons it is much less expensive to order ammo online by the case than to buy it any other way. Is a case a bulk ammo purchase? I haven't studied it enough to know.
I see infringement on the 2nd Amendment based on a criminal enterprise run by the federal government, and it appears to me the report may be a part of that enterprise, whether originally intended as such or not. OFF, Castaway and other illegal operations are nothing less than a very serious attempt to strip us of much of our remaining 2nd Amendment rights.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
That's just the thing. Many of our elected elite feel that simply owning a gun qualifies us as extremist nuts by default...despite the "I support the 2nd Amendment" chin music they play during an election year.
phantom soldier
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And if the ATF, FBI, Justice Department, State Department etc etc were purposely running guns to cartel members in order to stack bodies for a large gun control effort, where does that leave us? Are we / would we not be talking about Treason and Murder here? This is why some people don't like this issue or where it's obviously leading.
Its easier NOT to believe this is possible especially given the scale and all the agencies involved. It means our own gov't has openly declared war upon us. It puts us in a very uncomfortable position.
Its easier NOT to believe this is possible especially given the scale and all the agencies involved. It means our own gov't has openly declared war upon us. It puts us in a very uncomfortable position.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Anybody notice from the FINAL pdf that one of the .50 caliber rifles mentioned so prominently was a .50 Beowulf ( ~= .45-70 trapdoor in ballistics) and not a .50 BMG?
publius
Member
No, but you deserve bonus points for being so gun-geeky AND on topic at the same time.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
We assume that's due to a general lack of knowledge...and there is...but it may have been chosen for the report because, while "Browning" has a relatively benign ring..."Beowulf" suggests something more sinister and foreboding. You can probably look for it to pop up again in propaganda released just prior to proposed gun control legislation.
I think that the crooks who do these things count on this. It is so blatant, and so horrible, that many either bury their head in the sand and talk themselves out of it, or just never even consider it could be true in the first place. Google "The big lie" technique that the Nazi's talked about. You tell a lie so bold, and so blatant, that people can't believe that they would be so bold and so blatant.
I think they will continue doing these things, and I think they will accelerate until people stand up and call them on it. It hasn't happened yet unfortunately.
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Carl N. Brown
Member
Getting back to the e-mails appended to Glassley's memo to Holder 13 Apr 2011.
The gun dealers alerted the ATF to the suspicious buyers. The ATF advised the gun dealers to sell to the suspicious buyers. "Cooperating gun dealer" to "Voth David J." at usdoj. gov: "....We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to bad guys...." and later: "Tuesday night I watched a segment of a Fox News report about firearms and the border. The segment, if the information was correct, is disturbing to me. When you, Emory and I met on May 13th I shared my concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys.... ...I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ...."
The cooperating gun dealer had been assured that the guns were being interdicted after they left the shop and the traffickers were under tight surveillance, the ATF had a plan but could not share it with him.
I suspect how this will be portrayed by the mainstream media: same as gun issues have been treated for over half a century that I have been aware of the issue, with MSM's perrenial unquestioning antigun bias and apriori assumption of blind support for gun control. And MSM will bash their favorite pinata Fox News over its reporting on the issue (que Media Matters stage left).
The congressional reports, the statements of dissident ATF agents, will not matter after the TV movie of the week will show the noble ATF crusading against the demon gun dealers wantonly selling truck loads of M16 with grenade launchers to shady Pancho Villa look-alikes, with the gun dealers only concern bags of dollars. After all, the MSM gave us "In the Line of Duty: Ambush at Waco" on the Waco affair (disowned by the screen writer Phil Penningroth after independent research).
Yeah, I'm grumpy this morning.
The gun dealers alerted the ATF to the suspicious buyers. The ATF advised the gun dealers to sell to the suspicious buyers. "Cooperating gun dealer" to "Voth David J." at usdoj. gov: "....We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to bad guys...." and later: "Tuesday night I watched a segment of a Fox News report about firearms and the border. The segment, if the information was correct, is disturbing to me. When you, Emory and I met on May 13th I shared my concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys.... ...I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ...."
The cooperating gun dealer had been assured that the guns were being interdicted after they left the shop and the traffickers were under tight surveillance, the ATF had a plan but could not share it with him.
I suspect how this will be portrayed by the mainstream media: same as gun issues have been treated for over half a century that I have been aware of the issue, with MSM's perrenial unquestioning antigun bias and apriori assumption of blind support for gun control. And MSM will bash their favorite pinata Fox News over its reporting on the issue (que Media Matters stage left).
The congressional reports, the statements of dissident ATF agents, will not matter after the TV movie of the week will show the noble ATF crusading against the demon gun dealers wantonly selling truck loads of M16 with grenade launchers to shady Pancho Villa look-alikes, with the gun dealers only concern bags of dollars. After all, the MSM gave us "In the Line of Duty: Ambush at Waco" on the Waco affair (disowned by the screen writer Phil Penningroth after independent research).
Yeah, I'm grumpy this morning.
NRA on Fox news/boarder state Batf gun purchase reporting
http://www.nramedia.org/t/149965/32572041/6125/0/
In my opinion if you own a gun or believe in the 2d you really should join the NRA...Yes $25 dollars is a lot for some but it is better to sacrifice for a greater cause than to do nothing. Strength in numbers
http://www.nramedia.org/t/149965/32572041/6125/0/
In my opinion if you own a gun or believe in the 2d you really should join the NRA...Yes $25 dollars is a lot for some but it is better to sacrifice for a greater cause than to do nothing. Strength in numbers
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Mike1234567
member
If I was one of the dealers who was "instructed" to allow a rifle sale to one of these thugs and later discovered it was the very one I sold that was used to kill someone I would be insanely furious.
we are not amused
Member
I suggest you go back and reread the document in question. It clearly states that these people are potential terrorist. The whole purpose of the document was to encourage LE to view these types of people as potential terrorist! While in my opinion, the Head of Homeland Security is just an incompetent hack, there was a very coordinated effort to smear Conservatives and people who take the Rule of Law, and the Constitution seriously. If it meant to only include the idea that any Citizen could be a potential terrorist, why didn't it mention eco-freaks, or Left-wingers like Bill Ayers, or Union thugs?
It goes in hand with the very public propaganda that the Administration put out that Americans and Gun Shop Owners, living in the border States were arming the Mexican Drug Lords.
It now appears that "Operation Fast and Furious" was a deliberate attempt to generate negative publicity about guns, gun ownership, and sales, to encourage the passing of new and more restrictive gun laws. The more that is learned, the higher up the Administration it gets. We now know that a National Security Officer in the white House was briefed on the operation, that the DEA and the FBI supplied funds for it, and that "Stimulus" money was also used. Who among Congress had been briefed by the BATF? Who slipped that money into the "Stimulus Bill"?
We potentially have a very serious Constitutional crisis on our hands. One that will make Watergate look like the much ado about nothing it was.
We have what is beginning to look very much like a criminal conspiracy in several Agency's of the Government to influence Legislation and restrict Constitutional rights.
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