Justice officials in "Panic Mode" over failed Gun Program

[we are not amused]

NRA on Fox news/boarder state Batf gun purchase reporting

http://www.nramedia.org/t/149965/32572041/6125/0/

In my opinion if you own a gun or believe in the 2d you really should join the NRA...Yes $25 dollars is a lot for some but it is better to sacrifice for a greater cause than to do nothing. Strength in numbers

There are quite a few pro-gun groups out there. While the NRA is a group that any responsible gun owner should belong to, the are many others. The Second Amendment Foundation, Gun Owners of America, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, there is even a group for gays called Pink Pistols. any and all of these deserve our support. A list of gun ownership support groups is here: http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Gun_Control/Pro-Gun_Rights/Organizations/
Unless you are very wealthy, you probably can't support all the groups, but I strongly suggest you belong to at least one, preferably more.

 

[Heretic]

AMEN to the last post.

 

[LKB3rd]

While there is merit to supporting those groups in what they do, sending them money is unlikely to stop this sort of thing, or bring those behind it to justice.

 

[Sky]

While there is merit to supporting those groups in what they do, sending them money is unlikely to stop this sort of thing, or bring those behind it to justice.

Yes and much merit in what you say but those who do nothing get nothing done. At least the NRA actually filed the suit and is doing something. I do believe if an organization has 100 or 10,000,000 it does make a difference in Washington or locally which one has the larger number..

 

[LKB3rd]

I guess I should clarify my point. I'd hate to see people send money, and go back to <whatever> and forget about it. I think that that tactic is what has been mostly done to this point. While these organizations do accomplish things, we still have certain agencies running amok and trampling our rights. AKA it hasn't cured the problem. I think we all need to take personal action as well, whatever that might be for each person.

 

[Sky]

Understand

 

[Neverwinter]

I don't have any objection to the report per se. I object to the way a report like this from an agency of the federal government has been and will doubtlessly continue to be twisted by so many media outlets to lump law abiding gun owners like me in with extremist nuts. I consider the report to be irresponsible, in spite of the disclaimers.

The committee isn't responsible for the blatant misrepresentation of a report by the media when the primary audience is to law enforcement.

And MSM will bash their favorite pinata Fox News over its reporting on the issue (que Media Matters stage left).

Media Matters can hardly be considered mainstream, unless you've expanded the definition. Additionally, it will benefit the public to have another reporting organization pointing out the deficiencies and inaccuracies that may have been in the existing coverage by Fox.

If it wasn't clear from the text I quoted, the report does not consider people who own a gun or argue about the Constitution as a potential domestic terrorist. The report only supports those people as being a potential domestic terrorist in the meaningless sense that a citizen could theoretically be a terrorist.

I suggest you go back and reread the document in question. It clearly states that these people are potential terrorist. The whole purpose of the document was to encourage LE to view these types of people as potential terrorist! While in my opinion, the Head of Homeland Security is just an incompetent hack, there was a very coordinated effort to smear Conservatives and people who take the Rule of Law, and the Constitution seriously. If it meant to only include the idea that any Citizen could be a potential terrorist, why didn't it mention eco-freaks, or Left-wingers like Bill Ayers, or Union thugs?

I quoted sufficient parts to illustrate that they draw a distinction between law abiding gun owners and right wing extremists. They mention that the actions of both law abiding and right wing extremists to stockpile have fed the paranoia of the right wing extremists. The fact that they are mentioned separately does exactly the opposite of what you claim: that LE cannot determine right wing extremists by stockpiling alone, but must consider other elements of extremism.

I'm sure the reasoning behind why those other types of domestic terrorism are not discussed in this report is apparent from the title: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment. The current climate has provided a fertile environment in which right wing radicalization can occur, and the report was designed to study the signs and methods of those right wing extremists.

 

[2ndAmFan]

The committee isn't responsible for the blatant misrepresentation of a report by the media when the primary audience is to law enforcement.

We can argue this all we want. True, DHS isn't responsible for the media twisting this report around. That doesn't mean they didn't know how it would be twisted. There is no doubt they knew exactly what would happen, and it has begun. I live in Texas and am now at the top of the list of people the BATFE will be watching, not because I have done anything or will do anything wrong, but simply because of where I live. There is no good reason for a report like this, whether originally intended for LE or not. There is even less excuse for my rights being infringed due to illegal acts committed by the federal government. Take your blinders off, Neverwinter.
You defend the indefensible and behave as though I am mistaken when everything I have written is true to the best of my knowledge. Your quoting of the report is of no value because the msm has gotten their hands on it and turned it into a way to increase ratings regardless of the facts.
The feds really screwed up and I and others like me pay the price for it. If you choose to defend the report that's your prerogative, but the reality is it is not only an unjust situation which shouldn't have happened, but one which will result in countless murders. It all comes back to the same thing.
There was only one possible reason for OFF and the other operations run by the feds, and the illegality of these operations has resulted and will result in further in infringements upon our 2nd Amendment rights, as was intended.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Neverwinter

Put the Koolaid down, step back and take a little look

See the SAME (as in the EXACT SAME....) societal pressure that lead to

The current climate has provided a fertile environment in which right wing radicalization can occur, and the report was designed to study the signs and methods of those right wing extremists.

are the ones that lead to Leftist radicalization, SO
why in a report that is titled

Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment

is only right leaning radicalization addressed???

Oh, BTW one of the classic moves of the extremist is to target anyone who opposes them as a radical or 'enemy of the state'
so...
now that the cops know who to look at as an 'enemy of the state' radical
what's the next step, now many until we have Gestapo or NKVD disappearing people?

So, take a step back, why is the government targeting it's own population, is this the action of a free and open democratic society, is this a task given to the federal government in the Constitution? Isn't this the EXACT reason for the second amendment, that the government should fear it's people and not the people fear the government. But see logic like that makes me a radical.

Damn my history teacher for making me read the Founding Fathers.

 

[Neverwinter]

There is no doubt they knew exactly what would happen, and it has begun. I live in Texas and am now at the top of the list of people the BATFE will be watching, not because I have done anything or will do anything wrong, but simply because of where I live. There is no good reason for a report like this, whether originally intended for LE or not. There is even less excuse for my rights being infringed due to illegal acts committed by the federal government.

You're conflating two different issues: the report provided to law enforcement agencies for dealing with right wing extremists and gun smuggling of Fast & Furious. The scrutiny of the border states and the actions performed during F&F don't invalidate the report. Your rights aren't being infringed by the report. The report isn't resulting in countless murders. The report doesn't even mention gun smuggling.

are the ones that lead to Leftist radicalization, SO
why in a report that is titled
Quote:
Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment
is only right leaning radicalization addressed???

What happens to be your definition of left wing extremism and what about the climate of 2009 is fueling resurgence of that, in your mind?

Oh, BTW one of the classic moves of the extremist is to target anyone who opposes them as a radical or 'enemy of the state' so... now that the cops know who to look at as an 'enemy of the state' radical what's the next step, now many until we have Gestapo or NKVD disappearing people?

So, take a step back, why is the government targeting it's own population, is this the action of a free and open democratic society, is this a task given to the federal government in the Constitution? Isn't this the EXACT reason for the second amendment, that the government should fear it's people and not the people fear the government. But see logic like that makes me a radical.

Did you just claim that a report about the means of radicalization and recruitment of right wing extremists through fear/paranoia and the resultant violence and crimes is a step down the slippery slope of secret police abducting people? Are you saying that the government doesn't have reason to target the criminals within its own population? I almost should have expected the sarcasm about being a radical.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[Heretic]

You guys should leave Neverwinter alone. He's not going to understand until he wakes up in the middle of the night with a SWAT team in his bedroom.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

While criticism of Homeland Security is a valid subject ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Homeland_Security#Criticism ), opening post is on the Operation Fast and Furious Debacle, and we are wandering far afield. It has brough up important side issues, but they are side issues. I could go on and on about some of the these issues (gov't panic reports about July 4 1976 Bicentennial, Project Megiddo to deal with 500 dangerous Millennial cults, 1990s militia movements, etc.) but they are off-topic of the opening post.

What did the people in charge of OpF&F think they were doing? And will we ever get an honest accounting?

 

[jerkface11]

Did you just claim that a report about the means of radicalization and recruitment of right wing extremists through fear/paranoia and the resultant violence and crimes is a step down the slippery slope of secret police abducting people? Are you saying that the government doesn't have reason to target the criminals within its own population?

Yeah not like the ATF has persecuted and murdered people it deemed radical before.

 

[Heretic]

They were trying to generate a large enough body-count to justify banning our guns, and no, no one behind this debacle will be held accountable. The people who carried out this abomination (Obamanation?) are above the law, and nothing short of revolution will change that.

 

[armoredman]

I wouldn't advocate THAT, but I have to wonder how anyone could be held accountable in this case...

 

[Standing Wolf]

They were trying to generate a large enough body-count to justify banning our guns, and no, no one behind this debacle will be held accountable. The people who carried out this abomination (Obamanation?) are above the law, and nothing short of revolution will change that.

I sincerely hope you're wrong, Heretic; most unfortunately, I can't truthfully say I believe you are.

Our government has been in the hands of criminals a long, long time.

 

[Heretic]

Yea, I hope I'm wrong too.

 

[jerkface11]

They were trying to generate a large enough body-count to justify banning our guns, and no, no one behind this debacle will be held accountable. The people who carried out this abomination (Obamanation?) are above the law, and nothing short of revolution will change that.

They got away with it when they did the actual killing. Why would this be different.

 

[2ndAmFan]

You're conflating two different issues: the report provided to law enforcement agencies for dealing with right wing extremists and gun smuggling of Fast & Furious. The scrutiny of the border states and the actions performed during F&F don't invalidate the report. Your rights aren't being infringed by the report. The report isn't resulting in countless murders. The report doesn't even mention gun smuggling.

Yes, the actions of OFF and the report do validate the report, whether you wish to believe so or not. True, the report isn't resulting in countless murders, as OFF and other Ops are, but illegal actions by agencies of the federal government are still illegal. Why do you insist upon defending the indefensible? You are behaving as though none of this means anything, while in the meantime my 2nd Amendment rights have been curtailed. I am guiltless of wrongdoing yet I have been made out the be a criminal.

To quote you, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

 

[Shadow 7D]

NeverMind, there is a thing called history
some famous guy once said
those who don't learn it
are doomed to repeat it

What does this have to do with the price of rice in china?
this wouldn't be the first or last time the government manipulated their own people 'for their own good'

one of the kickers the founding fathers threw in that thingy they wrote; was this. EVERYBODY is UNDER the law, that means, even the President pays Parking tickets (theoretically, most likely the SS would just detain the metermaid...)

 

[Neverwinter]

Yeah not like the ATF has persecuted and murdered people it deemed radical before.

Wait, are you talking about Waco and Ruby Ridge?

Yes, the actions of OFF and the report do invalidate the report, whether you wish to believe so or not. True, the report isn't resulting in countless murders, as OFF and other Ops are, but illegal actions by agencies of the federal government are still illegal. Why do you insist upon defending the indefensible? You are behaving as though none of this means anything, while in the meantime my 2nd Amendment rights have been curtailed. I am guiltless of wrongdoing yet I have been made out the be a criminal.

How does the report invalidate itself?

None of my posts have suggested that illegal actions aren't illegal, and I haven't seen anyone in the entire thread say that. I was defending a report on right wing extremism that you and the media have deliberately misrepresented as making the claim that gun owners are potential domestic terrorists. Maybe I should have taken the High Road and let your misguided victimization narrative go unquestioned.

 

[publius]

What did the people in charge of OpF&F think they were doing? And will we ever get an honest accounting?

One guy speculates that the answer to your first question is: arming anyone who might then shoot a Zeta cartel member. Hey, it makes about as much sense as any other explanation I have heard so far.

To your second question, no.

 

[2ndAmFan]

I agree it's always best to take the high road, Neverwinter. It's obvious we won't agree and I would just as soon drop it before this thread gets locked. Oh, and I fixed the double negative I made by mistake in an earlier post on this page.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Let me guys tell ya the average Hispanic on the street knows nothing of nor do they care about the BATF's involvement on this matter. They all staunchly believe that this is a case of the US government arming in their words "terrorists" in order to overthrow the Mexican government and set up a US satellite state south of the border.

This administrations Hispanic vote is already GONE just on this one subject


---
- Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[Heretic]

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.