Owen
Moderator Emeritus
You know preacherman, I hadn't thought of that. Think there is a market for lightweight rickshaws?
Lessons learned from recent NO bug-outs
- Thread starter Preacherman
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texascarl
Member
A few other things I include in my bug out bag, you might find 'em useful:
a 14" Machete
Folding garden cart to move heavy loads after the road ends/gas runs out
Frog gig/fish spear head -cut a handle on the spot
Mora knives
Crow bar
bow saw
Earthquake 'bug out bag' checklist
An 'altoids' tin with a dozen large fish hooks, swivels, split shot and 40' of masons twine.
And a $7 enameled stockpot w/lid, fill with $10 worth of lentils/peas/beans, rice, barley, oatmeal, salt, sugar, your favorite spices, bullion cubes, tea, a few tin cups/spoons/bowls and a big box of kitchen matches. Store everything in a few sealed plastic bags.
a 14" Machete
Folding garden cart to move heavy loads after the road ends/gas runs out
Frog gig/fish spear head -cut a handle on the spot
Mora knives
Crow bar
bow saw
Earthquake 'bug out bag' checklist
An 'altoids' tin with a dozen large fish hooks, swivels, split shot and 40' of masons twine.
And a $7 enameled stockpot w/lid, fill with $10 worth of lentils/peas/beans, rice, barley, oatmeal, salt, sugar, your favorite spices, bullion cubes, tea, a few tin cups/spoons/bowls and a big box of kitchen matches. Store everything in a few sealed plastic bags.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Preacherman,
Sounds good. Make sure that you've got quick release capability on that rig, though.
I use a heavy duty climbing stand. (necessitated by heavy duty eating.) 27 pounds and it came without straps. I found some straps at an Army Surplus store that had quick release pulls.
When I tripped in a beaver swamp and wound up pinned underwater in a big puddle...I was grateful for the foresight. Popped the quick release, scooted out from under the climbing stand, freed it from roots and cypress knees. Marked the spot with blaze orange tape and headed for the cabin, the propane heater, a change of clothes, disassembled and cleaned my Browning. Got a nice doe that afternoon. Without quick release tabs, I would probably have been discovered by my buddy...drowned in a pool of water four feet by six feet by two feet deep. I would have hated that.
dpesec
Government, by the gradual fostering of a State funded welfare class, the fueling of the criminal drug culture by way of the so called "drug war", a corrupted judiciary and penal system, the gradual discouragement and de facto disarming of the general population and other means, has created a society of dependency.
A good gauge of such matters is how many peole are very surprized or shocked at what has happened in NO. Those that are not will generally be found to be the best prepared.
In the case of the "recent" late great NO, there never should have been any need for debate as to whether a massive operation involving National Guard troops was needed or not, and unfortunately it is all coming too little too late.
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That is great news!
I have a conflict with this one. The problem is that in many parts of the country we have been gelded as a people so to speak. Not everyone of course - just in the general sense.
Government, by the gradual fostering of a State funded welfare class, the fueling of the criminal drug culture by way of the so called "drug war", a corrupted judiciary and penal system, the gradual discouragement and de facto disarming of the general population and other means, has created a society of dependency.
A good gauge of such matters is how many peole are very surprized or shocked at what has happened in NO. Those that are not will generally be found to be the best prepared.
In the case of the "recent" late great NO, there never should have been any need for debate as to whether a massive operation involving National Guard troops was needed or not, and unfortunately it is all coming too little too late.
------------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
On the subject of inflatable boats, I personally think they are an excellent idea. That or a superlightweight canoe.
In addition to flooding, you never know when you may want to skirt some coastline, or make use of river or lake for travel etc. In the flooded city environment in particular, it is important to keep yourself out of the water as far as possible. Sewer content, dead animals and dead humans and chemicals combine to make a pretty poisonous cocktail; you really do not want that stuff in contact with your skin at all if you can help it.
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
In addition to flooding, you never know when you may want to skirt some coastline, or make use of river or lake for travel etc. In the flooded city environment in particular, it is important to keep yourself out of the water as far as possible. Sewer content, dead animals and dead humans and chemicals combine to make a pretty poisonous cocktail; you really do not want that stuff in contact with your skin at all if you can help it.
---------------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Preacherman...good thoughts...may I add this...
Preacherman, great contribution. Some years back I learned from a basement flood that Wal-Mart's (Rubbermaid) plastic storage containers with lids really are useful for MANY reasons. They are about 2 X 2 1/2 feet, by 16 inches deep. They result in being organized, keep things eminently dry and they are EASY to grab in a hurry. We have nearly 50 of these pliable bins. DO NOT BUY THE CHEAP ONES THAT CRACK!
We have them set in nice stacks and labeled for contents. ALL camping items in some, all hunting items in some others, all survival items in yet others. Color coordinate them too: red = emergency survival; green = camping; blue = household.
At any time, I have 3 gallons of Coleman fuel for the Coleman stoves, and I buy ONLY Coleman Dual Fuel camping tools, because they work w/ gasoline too. Regarding the MUST take/save family items, those are locked in the gun vault. If ever there be the need to bug out, we are always nearly all packed away. Red and green boxes are MUST takes. The safe contents are a must take. As we live in very high land, I doubt here we'd have flood issues, but other emergencies could always arise.
Thanks to all who posted here...this was excellent education for me and for my family. I just hope we never need to enact it.
Wow, I can't believe I forgot to explicitly list this one...the one I ALWAYS take when travelling...my little red Craftsman tool box and Chilton's repair manual for both vehicles. You want to see vacation money up in smoke qucikly? Reflect back on the late 1960s early 1970s I-75 Hwy. gas stations who were all-too-eager to get under your hood, cutting wires and hoses, poking spring-loaded razors to the tires, etc. I haven't seen that in years, but I'll never forget that experience! Odd how they ALWAYS spotted the TINIEST leaks in tires...didn't even need the tire under water to do it!? Hmmm.
Doc2005
Preacherman, great contribution. Some years back I learned from a basement flood that Wal-Mart's (Rubbermaid) plastic storage containers with lids really are useful for MANY reasons. They are about 2 X 2 1/2 feet, by 16 inches deep. They result in being organized, keep things eminently dry and they are EASY to grab in a hurry. We have nearly 50 of these pliable bins. DO NOT BUY THE CHEAP ONES THAT CRACK!
We have them set in nice stacks and labeled for contents. ALL camping items in some, all hunting items in some others, all survival items in yet others. Color coordinate them too: red = emergency survival; green = camping; blue = household.
At any time, I have 3 gallons of Coleman fuel for the Coleman stoves, and I buy ONLY Coleman Dual Fuel camping tools, because they work w/ gasoline too. Regarding the MUST take/save family items, those are locked in the gun vault. If ever there be the need to bug out, we are always nearly all packed away. Red and green boxes are MUST takes. The safe contents are a must take. As we live in very high land, I doubt here we'd have flood issues, but other emergencies could always arise.
Thanks to all who posted here...this was excellent education for me and for my family. I just hope we never need to enact it.
Wow, I can't believe I forgot to explicitly list this one...the one I ALWAYS take when travelling...my little red Craftsman tool box and Chilton's repair manual for both vehicles. You want to see vacation money up in smoke qucikly? Reflect back on the late 1960s early 1970s I-75 Hwy. gas stations who were all-too-eager to get under your hood, cutting wires and hoses, poking spring-loaded razors to the tires, etc. I haven't seen that in years, but I'll never forget that experience! Odd how they ALWAYS spotted the TINIEST leaks in tires...didn't even need the tire under water to do it!? Hmmm.
Doc2005
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armoredman
Member
Seeing how the traditional 72 hour kit may need to upgraded to a 120 hour kit....
Stashing beginning again. Love WalMart.
Stashing beginning again. Love WalMart.
Cosmoline
Member
It's important not to forget the small luxury items in your kit. I always keep a backup pipe and tobacco. It's been my observation, backed by hundreds of years of first-hand accounts of people stuck in the wilderness and other extreme situations, that a few small luxuries will help balance out a lot of practical problems. Hard candies in sealed tins are also an excellent idea, so long as they are not the "thirsty" kind like sour lemon.
As far as Coleman--keep in mind that the Coleman of today is not the Coleman of thirty years ago. Most of the stuff in sporting goods stores is overseas junk. When I first moved out to the sticks I had a number of Coleman propane appliances. Sadly I found out they were not designed for any prolonged use. The stoves broke apart within weeks, and after two months the propane heater exploded into flames.
GET MIL SPEC! GO WITH OLD, NOT NEW!!! They do not make 'em like they used to. I replaced the sporting goods aisle junk I first got with high-quality brass lanterns from the Amish store Lehman's and military surplus stoves and pressurized lanterns. These have proven nearly impossible to damage or destroy. They work in the worst conditions, every time.
I just ordered another cookstove/lamp from Lehman's along with a carbide lamp and supply of calcium carbide. These items will work even in the worst circumstances. Though perhaps calcium carbide isn't the best idea for a flood prone area (KABOOM!)
As far as Coleman--keep in mind that the Coleman of today is not the Coleman of thirty years ago. Most of the stuff in sporting goods stores is overseas junk. When I first moved out to the sticks I had a number of Coleman propane appliances. Sadly I found out they were not designed for any prolonged use. The stoves broke apart within weeks, and after two months the propane heater exploded into flames.
GET MIL SPEC! GO WITH OLD, NOT NEW!!! They do not make 'em like they used to. I replaced the sporting goods aisle junk I first got with high-quality brass lanterns from the Amish store Lehman's and military surplus stoves and pressurized lanterns. These have proven nearly impossible to damage or destroy. They work in the worst conditions, every time.
I just ordered another cookstove/lamp from Lehman's along with a carbide lamp and supply of calcium carbide. These items will work even in the worst circumstances. Though perhaps calcium carbide isn't the best idea for a flood prone area
(KABOOM!)ctdonath
Member
I picked up a cheap inflatable raft ($50? IIRC) at Gander Mountain. Have used it several times for fun. Packs pretty small (under 3 cubic feet), can hold two adults and a small dog, supports a small electric motor (extra), and has 3 separate inflation chambers.
Not something I'd carry, but very easy to keep or toss in the car as needed.
Not something I'd carry, but very easy to keep or toss in the car as needed.
ctdonath
Member
Where to find an AR-20? Seems like a perfect minimal take-down .22.
Joe Mamma
Member
.
Just an addition to the "inflatable raft during flooding" series of comments:
For carrying supplies, you can "mule train" small inflatable pools (they often have walls over a foot high, and inflate quickly).
Or something like this inflatable trampoline sure could hold a lot of extra stuff (including the kids!) that would take up volume otherwise in backpacks. And you could play with it in non-SHTF times, too.
And I also agree that you should have tape/patch kits too!
.
For carrying supplies, you can "mule train" small inflatable pools (they often have walls over a foot high, and inflate quickly).
Or something like this inflatable trampoline sure could hold a lot of extra stuff (including the kids!) that would take up volume otherwise in backpacks. And you could play with it in non-SHTF times, too.
And I also agree that you should have tape/patch kits too!
.
texascarl
Member
And if you're ever lost or in need of rescue just start a game of solitaire and sit there with a red queen open and a black jack available to move on to it...within 5 minutes SOMEONE will show up to point out that you're missing a play. Let 'em rescue you, while they're handy.
Peter,
Look at the Chariot Hiking conversion kit at the bottom of http://www.bicycletrailers.com/chariot-conversion-kits.htm. Find a used Chariot "stroller" and put the kit on it.
Look at the Chariot Hiking conversion kit at the bottom of http://www.bicycletrailers.com/chariot-conversion-kits.htm. Find a used Chariot "stroller" and put the kit on it.
308win
Member
Someone asked about portable multi-band radios - Eatons (carried by Best Buy, Circuit City, RadioShack) makes several AM/FM/SW models some with crank chargers, some with internal battery rechargers, some without either. Most are under $150, many about $100.
Knives - KBar fighting knife is a good choice but it is big, heavy, and anything but concealable or inconspicuous. Buck makes nice fixed blade and folders. Ken Onion folders are nice, get one with the partially serrated blade as it makes cutting seatbelts, nylon cord/rope, etc. easier.
In any disaster there are three kinds of people: the desperate - people who are taking what they need to survive; the degenerate - these are the people who are stealing from you every chance they get regardless of the conditions; and the disinfranchised who are stealing because they believe they have been mistreated by society and see the conditions as a chance to 'get some' or get one over one the man. This isn't my analysis, I read it in USAToday but I believe it makes sense.
Knives - KBar fighting knife is a good choice but it is big, heavy, and anything but concealable or inconspicuous. Buck makes nice fixed blade and folders. Ken Onion folders are nice, get one with the partially serrated blade as it makes cutting seatbelts, nylon cord/rope, etc. easier.
In any disaster there are three kinds of people: the desperate - people who are taking what they need to survive; the degenerate - these are the people who are stealing from you every chance they get regardless of the conditions; and the disinfranchised who are stealing because they believe they have been mistreated by society and see the conditions as a chance to 'get some' or get one over one the man. This isn't my analysis, I read it in USAToday but I believe it makes sense.
Preacherman
Member
HSO, great suggestion - thanks!
I'm now working on how best to pack a "chariot" like that. Given that I won't be able to put 50 pounds plus on my back, I don't need to put it all into one big bag. I'm thinking that I'll wear a fanny-pack and a tactical vest to hold "must-have" items (basic first aid kit, one-day supply of essential foods, water bottle, carry ammo, rainproofs, change of underwear and socks, handgun magazines, flashlight, map, compass, commo gear [small radio, cellphone], etc.). I could probably keep this load under 20-30 pounds with a bit of skull sweat. I'd also have my long gun on my back - something light, probably an AK clone. Then, in the chariot, I'd have a sleeping bag, a light tent or dual-purpose tarpaulin, a bag of clothing, a bag of toiletries (very basic, of course), a sanitary unit, foodstuffs (again, as light as possible: high-calorie, high-fat, high-energy, low-bulk stuff), extra ammo, extra water, and so on.
In this way, I could see myself loading out with enough gear to make it for 3-5 days on my own. I'd have to include rope, etc. so that if I hit terrain where I couldn't hike with the trailer, I could lift or lower it and its contents (either as one load, or separately) to the next viable position.
Hmmm... shopping time!
I'm now working on how best to pack a "chariot" like that. Given that I won't be able to put 50 pounds plus on my back, I don't need to put it all into one big bag. I'm thinking that I'll wear a fanny-pack and a tactical vest to hold "must-have" items (basic first aid kit, one-day supply of essential foods, water bottle, carry ammo, rainproofs, change of underwear and socks, handgun magazines, flashlight, map, compass, commo gear [small radio, cellphone], etc.). I could probably keep this load under 20-30 pounds with a bit of skull sweat. I'd also have my long gun on my back - something light, probably an AK clone. Then, in the chariot, I'd have a sleeping bag, a light tent or dual-purpose tarpaulin, a bag of clothing, a bag of toiletries (very basic, of course), a sanitary unit, foodstuffs (again, as light as possible: high-calorie, high-fat, high-energy, low-bulk stuff), extra ammo, extra water, and so on.
In this way, I could see myself loading out with enough gear to make it for 3-5 days on my own. I'd have to include rope, etc. so that if I hit terrain where I couldn't hike with the trailer, I could lift or lower it and its contents (either as one load, or separately) to the next viable position.
Hmmm... shopping time!
No offense, Kershaw makes some great everyday knives, but doesn't currently make a folder that I'd bet my butt on in a bugout situation (and I often carry one of my dozen Kershaw KOs).
Non-firearms weapons forum here has ton's of discussions on "best knife".
Non-firearms weapons forum here has ton's of discussions on "best knife".
In addition to what 308win said,
Radio Shack carry the Grundig crankdriven rechargeable battery (or three AA battery) AM/FM/SW radio that sells for just under $40. It is very good value for money.
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http://ssunitedstates.org
Radio Shack carry the Grundig crankdriven rechargeable battery (or three AA battery) AM/FM/SW radio that sells for just under $40. It is very good value for money.
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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
this may cause some offence but it is important to consider
Medications have already been mentioned and for females this may include oral contraceptives. It should be pretty easy to keep a one-month supply by 'losing' one packet and getting another prescription.
Just because the world is falling apart doesn't mean people stop having sex, but nine months after a disaster I may or may not be in a position to mother a child. To this end I pack latex condoms. They also make great makeshift water carriers if you can rinse the spermicidal lubricant (which shouldn't hurt you too much but tastes foul) off of them. I don't think the polyurethane ones are stretchy enough to be used as water carriers but if you're allergic to latex they might still be handy.
Also, if the level of breakdown of law and order is misjudged and you don't get away in time, rape is going to be a serious concern. To this end I'm working on acquiring emergency contraception (morning-after pill). Some conventional oral contraceptives can be used as morning-after pills if you take several pills at once, depending on the situation you might be better off stopping taking your pills and keeping them by for use as morning-after contraception. Make sure you know whether and exactly how this can be done with your particular pills, though; if you're not sure it's probably best just to keep taking them.
With many pills it is safe to take them continuously (without a placebo week) to avoid having periods altogether for about three months. If you get severe menstrual cramps this may be worthwhile; I know most pain medications don't touch my cramps and the last thing I need is to be curled up in agony when I need to be making progress. If I have appropriate pain meds, though, I'm more likely to take the placebo week and have the cramps in order to make the pills last longer.
Products like <a href="http://www.mooncup.co.uk">MoonCup</a> and the US version, <a href="http://www.divacup.com">Divacup</a> are absolutely great in terms of not having to carry pads and tampons around. They're cheaper than using pads too, and well worth considering.
On a note completely unrelated to reproduction, caffeine tablets seem to me like they could be a good thing to carry. Coffee and tea are wonderful if you can spare the time and power to make them and you have enough water on hand that you don't have to think about their diuretic effects, but if you aren't so lucky, caffeine withdrawal headaches are the last thing you need. Caffeine tablets (or even those little dissolvable tongue strips, I don't know if you can get them in North America, I've only recently started seeing them here in the UK) take up very little space and weight in your kit and could be invaluable. If you're accustomed to having lots of caffeine you don't want to go off it cold turkey because the next two weeks will be really horrid. If you aren't accustomed to much caffeine, you might still end up in a situation where you are trading watch with someone else and need to stay awake when you might normally sleep.
I don't drive and I have no friends within walking distance who drive. I'm working on getting my bicycle back into good repair, because I know I could carry more that way, but I'm also trying to make sure I can carry enough to get out of London in two or three days on foot.
Paperwork can be very important. I'd suggest that information about dosage of medications is also important, it's easy to forget things when one is not in one's normal routine.
I think that someone's earlier mention of knowing how hurricanes work is a good one. I live in London, UK and we don't tend to have many hurricanes here; but I am making a point of knowing about the sorts of storms we do get and the various risks inherent to my location. I'm right beside the Thames, so if the Thames Barrier were to fail - which will probably happen in my lifetime if they don't get on with building another over the whole estuary - serious flooding would be an immediate concern. Wherever you are, it makes sense to know about the risks of your location, whether they're quakes, hurricanes, volcanoes, tornadoes, or just cities that might be prone to riots in very bad news.
Medications have already been mentioned and for females this may include oral contraceptives. It should be pretty easy to keep a one-month supply by 'losing' one packet and getting another prescription.
Just because the world is falling apart doesn't mean people stop having sex, but nine months after a disaster I may or may not be in a position to mother a child. To this end I pack latex condoms. They also make great makeshift water carriers if you can rinse the spermicidal lubricant (which shouldn't hurt you too much but tastes foul) off of them. I don't think the polyurethane ones are stretchy enough to be used as water carriers but if you're allergic to latex they might still be handy.
Also, if the level of breakdown of law and order is misjudged and you don't get away in time, rape is going to be a serious concern. To this end I'm working on acquiring emergency contraception (morning-after pill). Some conventional oral contraceptives can be used as morning-after pills if you take several pills at once, depending on the situation you might be better off stopping taking your pills and keeping them by for use as morning-after contraception. Make sure you know whether and exactly how this can be done with your particular pills, though; if you're not sure it's probably best just to keep taking them.
With many pills it is safe to take them continuously (without a placebo week) to avoid having periods altogether for about three months. If you get severe menstrual cramps this may be worthwhile; I know most pain medications don't touch my cramps and the last thing I need is to be curled up in agony when I need to be making progress. If I have appropriate pain meds, though, I'm more likely to take the placebo week and have the cramps in order to make the pills last longer.
Products like <a href="http://www.mooncup.co.uk">MoonCup</a> and the US version, <a href="http://www.divacup.com">Divacup</a> are absolutely great in terms of not having to carry pads and tampons around. They're cheaper than using pads too, and well worth considering.
On a note completely unrelated to reproduction, caffeine tablets seem to me like they could be a good thing to carry. Coffee and tea are wonderful if you can spare the time and power to make them and you have enough water on hand that you don't have to think about their diuretic effects, but if you aren't so lucky, caffeine withdrawal headaches are the last thing you need. Caffeine tablets (or even those little dissolvable tongue strips, I don't know if you can get them in North America, I've only recently started seeing them here in the UK) take up very little space and weight in your kit and could be invaluable. If you're accustomed to having lots of caffeine you don't want to go off it cold turkey because the next two weeks will be really horrid. If you aren't accustomed to much caffeine, you might still end up in a situation where you are trading watch with someone else and need to stay awake when you might normally sleep.
I don't drive and I have no friends within walking distance who drive. I'm working on getting my bicycle back into good repair, because I know I could carry more that way, but I'm also trying to make sure I can carry enough to get out of London in two or three days on foot.
Paperwork can be very important. I'd suggest that information about dosage of medications is also important, it's easy to forget things when one is not in one's normal routine.
I think that someone's earlier mention of knowing how hurricanes work is a good one. I live in London, UK and we don't tend to have many hurricanes here; but I am making a point of knowing about the sorts of storms we do get and the various risks inherent to my location. I'm right beside the Thames, so if the Thames Barrier were to fail - which will probably happen in my lifetime if they don't get on with building another over the whole estuary - serious flooding would be an immediate concern. Wherever you are, it makes sense to know about the risks of your location, whether they're quakes, hurricanes, volcanoes, tornadoes, or just cities that might be prone to riots in very bad news.
eyeglasses
If you wear glasses as a matter of course every day, you'd do well to invest in a spare pair with current prescription to keep in getaway kit. If you don't normally re-use your frames and your prescription doesn't change much you could just keep an old pair - the next-most-recent prescription.
If that's too expensive, you could go for a pair of pinhole glasses (available at places like www.pinhole-glasses.com), which tend to work well for people with up to 6 diopters of myopia. I'm at about 7 diopters and the pinholes are still a LOT better than no glasses at all, as I found out this weekend when my glasses broke. An advantage of pinholes is that you don't have to keep replacing them if your prescription changes. They don't fog up in cold weather or steam, they don't break terribly easily and they are quite lightweight. They do block a lot of light, however, so they aren't so useful at night.
If you wear glasses as a matter of course every day, you'd do well to invest in a spare pair with current prescription to keep in getaway kit. If you don't normally re-use your frames and your prescription doesn't change much you could just keep an old pair - the next-most-recent prescription.
If that's too expensive, you could go for a pair of pinhole glasses (available at places like www.pinhole-glasses.com), which tend to work well for people with up to 6 diopters of myopia. I'm at about 7 diopters and the pinholes are still a LOT better than no glasses at all, as I found out this weekend when my glasses broke. An advantage of pinholes is that you don't have to keep replacing them if your prescription changes. They don't fog up in cold weather or steam, they don't break terribly easily and they are quite lightweight. They do block a lot of light, however, so they aren't so useful at night.
Preacherman
Member
Ewt, those are some seriously important considerations. I'm male and single, and I wouldn't have thought about the feminine hygiene side of things - but in a bug-out situation, I might well end up in the company of ladies who might need such help. I must look into a couple of emergency supply items like those. Also, the eyeglasses thing is vital. Thanks for your input.
ctdonath
Member
On data:
I've taken to scanning/digitizing ALL of my financial paperwork. Anything paper that comes in gets scanned & shredded (living in an apartment, have little space). Keep copies on my notebook computer, will burn DVD backups - with at least one copy going into the bugout bag. As such, all financial info is easily at hand. Decent HP scanner can be had from Office Depot for a mere $40 (use the latest on-line drivers, not the driver CD).
I've taken to scanning/digitizing ALL of my financial paperwork. Anything paper that comes in gets scanned & shredded (living in an apartment, have little space). Keep copies on my notebook computer, will burn DVD backups - with at least one copy going into the bugout bag. As such, all financial info is easily at hand. Decent HP scanner can be had from Office Depot for a mere $40 (use the latest on-line drivers, not the driver CD).
ctdonath
Member
Any comments on the suitability of firing 12-guage flares from a shotgun? they're made specifically for flare guns; anyone try 'em from what we're more likely to carry?
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