Let us revisit the 1911 recoil spring issue.

[Hangingrock]

Let us revisit the 1911 recoil spring issue.

As a reference The Colt .45 Automatic A Shop Manual Volume 1 by Jerry Kuhnhausen Page Number 90:

“Recoil spring weight in the standard factory Government Model will vary some what, but averages approximately 16 pounds. This spring weight began with the original M1911 production, and is correct for 230 grain ball ammunition at velocities of about 800 FPS.”

As a reference The U.S. M1911/M1911A1 Pistols & Commercial M1911 Pistols Volume 2 by Jerry Kuhnhausen Page Number 146:

“Spring Drawing/ Specifications Total number of coils = 30 – Free length 6.55 (inch) Ref - Solid length 1.375 (inch) Max. Load at 73% compressed length of 1.81 (inch) = 13.55 Lbs. – OD .430 (inch) ± .005 (inch)”

“Figure 135 –Spring data: ordnance std. recoil springs have 30 coils. Fully Compressed spring tension is 17.36 lbs. Although tension is progressive, this equals an average spring rate of approx. 2.65 Lbs/Inch.”

Should Jerry Kuhnhausen be correct it would appear the 16 Lb. is the standard spring as opposed to the 14 Lb. spring for the M1911/M1911A1 Government Model.

 

[Jim K]

What difference does it make if the gun works with whatever ammo is being used? If using GI ball or equivalent, go with a 16 pound spring.

Jim

 

[EddieNFL]

Should Jerry Kuhnhausen be correct it would appear the 16 Lb. is the standard spring as opposed to the 14 Lb. spring for the M1911/M1911A1 Government Model.

As none of my 1911s are standard, I use 14 pound springs.

 

[1911Tuner]

Note too that the original spring rate spec was during the time that the 5/64ths radius on the bottom of the firing pin stop was in use. When that changed in January 1918, so did the recoil spring.

Also try to understand that the recoil spring's primary function is to chamber the next round and return the gun to battery. It decelerates the slide as a result of being compressed by the slide...but that's incidental, and not its reason for being there.

Think of it as more of an action spring...just like the one that drives the bolt home in an M1 or M14 rifle, because it accomplishes the same thing. The slide on an autopistol is essentially nothing more than a bolt.

 

[Hangingrock]

Not whishing to be contrary or argumentative but the specification for the spring would be closer to 15-lbs as opposed to 14-lbs.

To the best of my knowledge Colts standard recoil spring for the current Government Model is specified as 16-lbs. Wolff’s conventional recoil spring factory standard for the .45 caliber is a load rating of 16-lbs stock number 41916.

From the original subject an educated guess was made that a certain stock number Wolff spring specifications’ load rating of 14-lbs duplicated the original government specifications thus the usage of load rating 14-lbs spring.

I personally have not found in my limited research of the subject that 14-lbs load rating is the magic number.

R/S

 

[JDGray]

Adjust the spring for whatever ammo your shooting. Soft shooting girly loads, may need a softer spring to function....If your empty cases are landing 6'-8' away, your good

 

[1911Tuner]

JD...Counterpoint.

If the gun is set up correctly, it should run with anything from 10-18 pounds for standard hardball or hot-rod +P ammo. The spring isn't there to determine how far the brass should go. It's there to ready the gun for the next round.

For extreme "softball" ammunition...a lighter spring may be called for...but we're getting into 200 grain bullets at 600 fps on that one. Sometimes I shoot a 200-grain bullet with 3.5 grains of Bullseye that chronographs at a tick over 700 fps...and no spring change is necessary for function in my guns.

Neither does it have anything to do with unlock timing. The gun can be fired without a recoil spring at all, and nothing will change other than the fact that it won't return to battery. Nor does it have anything to do with controlling pressure. Standard...+P...or +P+...a 14 pound spring is fine.

Hangingrock...You're within striking distance. I'm planning to do another workshop sometime in September. You should come join in. There's no charge, but ya do need to be prepared to pet all the dogs.

 

[Jim K]

I don't think any recoil operated pistols have been made without recoil (return) springs, but some blowback .22's have. H&R had a rifle that had no return spring and the interesting little S-M pistol also had to be closed manually. But in some auto pistols the spring does snub down breehblock movement to make up for a light slide/breechblock, witness the .35 and .32 S&W pistols with springs so heavy they had to be disconnected in order to load the first round.

Jim

 

[CAWalter]

I agree the spring described is closer to 15#, (6.55-1.375)X2.88=14.904#. But that is at full compression. Using the same numbers and stopping at 1.625" of compression it is closer to 14#, (6.55-1.625)X2.88=14.184#.

Dave at Wolff says their springs are rated at the full recoil compressed dimensions, GM 1.625", Commander 1.125", Officers .700", not at full compression, although many are nearly the same as they are but a few thousandths from full compression when at full recoil.

So as we have all experienced the 1911 will run with a variety of different recoil spring weights. How it feels in our hands is sometimes the deciding factor.

As a means of respect to my 1911's I have found using a buffer as an indicator of value in deciding. If with a particular load the buffer gets cut, then a heavier recoil spring is indicated. No contact (probably stove pipes also) then a lighter recoil spring. If I get a mark, but not a cut, that is my recoil spring weight choice.

The change in the firing pin stop from a .078" (5/64") radius to the current .21875"(7/32") radius, bringing about a recoil spring weight to balance the recoil energy is a good assessment as to the current standard.

This does not however help explain the statement;

It decelerates the slide as a result of being compressed by the slide...but that's incidental, and not its reason for being there.

So why Tuner do you run buffers in a couple of your old Colts if slowing the slide by the recoil spring is only incidental? Why not the 10#, as you mention being fine?

If the gun is set up correctly, it should run with anything from 10-18 pounds. The spring isn't there to determine how far the brass should go. It's there to ready the gun for the next round.

And why would the radius change, change the recoil spring standard used, if it doesn't matter? After all the chambering cycle isn't changed by the change in firing pin stop radius.

CAW

 

[Yo Mama]

I had a respected 1911 gunsmith once tell me 16 pounds is the ideal weight. To get that from a spring, he always went with an 18 pounder. His reason was that after 5-10 rounds with the 18 pounder, the spring was now really a 16 pounder.

 

[CAWalter]

I had a respected 1911 gunsmith once tell me 16 pounds is the ideal weight. To get that from a spring, he always went with an 18 pounder. His reason was that after 5-10 rounds with the 18 pounder, the spring was now really a 16 pounder.

This smith might benefit from a spring scale. And can only say to this, Yo Mama!

 

[1911Tuner]

Yep, Jim. Unlocked breech/Straight blowback pistols do utilize the spring to delay the slide.

Remember the Llama .380 caliber "Baby" 1911 pistols? One was a true to Browning locked breech, and the other one was a blowback. Outwardly identical in every way...until you went to rack the slide. The locked pistol was ridiculously easy. The blowback was difficult even for strong hands.

 

[1911Tuner]

'Twas asked:

>>So why Tuner do you run buffers in a couple of your old Colts if slowing the slide by the recoil spring is only incidental? Why not the 10#, as you mention being fine?<<

I don't. I ran buffers once in each pistol...mainly because they were given to me. I removed'em after about a thousand rounds, and there hasn't been one in either of the guns since.

And:

>>And why would the radius change, change the recoil spring standard used, if it doesn't matter? After all the chambering cycle isn't changed by the change in firing pin stop radius.<<

Don't know. That was a long time ago. I'm sure they had their reasons, but I've never been able to figure out what those reasons were.

This I do know. I've never seen the "frame battering" that has everybody so concerned about, even in very old, soft pistols and have never seen it in modern pistols unless the impact abutment was out of square. Back in the 60s, when USGI pistols were stacked like cordwood on gun show tables and were selling for as little as 25 dollars a copy...we used to buy'em and tweak'em and shoot'em until the slides cracked...and then we'd go buy another slide and start all over. In those days, there were no calibrated spring packs. USGI surplus was all there was. We shot surplus hardball...real GI hardball...and the frames outlasted slides by about 5:1 or better. The frames gave out from rail wear...not battering at the impact abutment.

As a matter of fact, I turned a 1918 "Black Army" Colt frame into a Commander when I found a slide that let me refit after peening the frame rails down one more time. It's been doing fairly hard duty for 5 years...with a 16 pound spring. The impact abutment looks fine.

 

[JDGray]

Wolff might know a thing or two about spring rates
http://www.gunsprings.com/faq#Faq3

 

[1911Tuner]

And here 'tis, shown with another one that I built up with an Essex slide and frame set. The frame had close to 50,000 rounds on it...that I fired...before I turned it into a Commander. No way to know how many it had seen before I bought it in 1975-ish. Never had a buffer in it. The springs have all been 16-pound Wolff standard springs cut to 24 coils.

 

[EddieNFL]

Wolff might know a thing or two about spring rates

I'll bet they know a bit about marketing, as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Eddie...+1 They've sold a lotta springs with that 2,000 round rule...but they're in business to sell springs. No?

I'll offer a theory on the spring market. Just theory, mind you...but it comes from a lot of time spent with 1911 pistols.

Like the shock buffer and the "Power Extractor" it seems to me that it's marketing...and one of the oldest marketing strategies around.

To wit:

First convince the potential buyer that he needs it...and then sell it to him.

You can put full-length guide rods into the same category.

 

[JDGray]

I'll bet they know a bit about marketing, as well.

Yes they do....Selling directly to the manufacturers

 

[1911Tuner]

Ah, JD. You've bought into the hype.

I first heard about this frame battering thing along about the same time that shock buffers appeared. Not long after that...it seems that the extra-power recoil springs also made their debut...and everybody was telling me that I had to step up to an 18-pound spring in my 5-inch guns and 20 in my Commanders or I was ruining my frames.

I was like..."Huh? What?"

At that point, I'd been shooting and wrenching on 1911s for about 15 years, and the majority of my experience came with old GI pistols that my father and uncle had bought on the cheap...rebuilt...and used for shooters. I'm pretty sure they also made a little cash on a few, but that's mainly speculation.

I still have a few of those pistols, by the way. They're fine. Never a shock buffer or an 18-pound sprung in any of'em. Mostly the springs used were GI surplus...'cause that's all we had.

I often wonder how we ever managed to get along before we had shock buffers...extra power springs...and full-length guide rods. I guess we were stumbling around in the dark, waiting and hoping that someone would come along and light our paths for us.

JD...Go buy a new Colt Government model and find a spring tester. Betcha it won't hit more than about 14.5 pounds at full slide travel. Reckon that Colt...after building the pistol non-stop for a hundred years...might know a little somethin' about springs, too?

 

[HisSoldier]

Remember the Llama .380 caliber "Baby" 1911 pistols? One was a true to Browning locked breech, and the other one was a blowback. Outwardly identical in every way...until you went to rack the slide. The locked pistol was ridiculously easy. The blowback was difficult even for strong hands.

I didn't know that, and I'm a Llama .380 fan, but then I've never owned nor wanted the blowback version.
The locked breech Llama .380 is the best .380 ever made, a nearly true knockoff of my favorite full bore gun . It's a shame that they earned some of the bad reputation they have.

Tuner, what about the Officer's .45, I've read many times that one should swap springs around 300 rounds (!?!?!) to which my answer was "IMSI!" Perhaps I didn't need to go IMSI if that was marketing?

 

[1911Tuner]

'Twas asked:

>I've read many times that one should swap springs around 300 rounds (!?!?!) to which my answer was "IMSI!" Perhaps I didn't need to go IMSI if that was marketing?<

The shorter, higher rate springs do lose their oomph faster than standard springs, and they need to be changed more often...but it's not about buffering the slide to frame impact. It's about getting the gun back in battery reliably. ISMI chrome silicon springs outlast music wire springs by a good margin. In standard length and rate...they'll go for 6 or 8 thousand rounds before the RTB starts to get sluggish.
Pricey, though.

 

[Yo Mama]

This smith might benefit from a spring scale. And can only say to this, Yo Mama!

What does this even mean?

 

[1911Tuner]

Jim K...You were right all along. They know not what they know not.

Tell'em again about your 8500 round Norinco on the OEM spring.

Hangin'rock...The offer stands. I'll even do a one on one if that's all we can arrange. Say when. You'll come away with a deeper understanding of Johnny B's pistol.

 

[Rail Driver]

Since we're on springs, what's the proper replacement for a Colt Commander recoil spring? I have a spare Colt spring, but it's from a Gov't size (60's or 70's commercial model). I haven't compared the two springs yet, I just thought to ask when I saw this thread.

 

[1911Tuner]

If it's got the standard recoil system and hasn't been converted to a reverse plug/bushingless atrocity...you can clip the GM spring to 24 coils and it'll do just fine.

Be sure to check for coil bind...spring stacking into a solid cylinder...just to be on the safe side. The quick test is to install the spring and rack the slide briskly. If you hear a solid metallic "clack", you're good to go. If you hear a dull thud...or it feels "crunchy" when it hits the impact abutment, it needs another half-coil or so clipped off. Highly doubtful that you'll have a problem, though.

Have at it, gentlemen. I'm callin' it a night. Been a long time since 0400.