Let us revisit the 1911 recoil spring issue.

[1911Tuner]

I don't know how controllable it was. I didn't shoot it. I've shot .45s several times without a spring, and it's not a lot different than shooting it with a spring. You can best answer that question by trying it for yourself. Use a full-length guide rod. The standard rod will get cattywampus without the spring, and damage the gun.

The small radius stop is mostly about adding a bit to the slide's delay and giving the bullet more time to exit. It works to bleed momentum from the slide, and thus slows it down a bit...but that wasn't my idea. It was John Browning's...and as I said before...he and the Colt team worked out the spring rates a long time ago.

But, we're digressing a bit. No?

Let's recap the recap.

Eddie stated that he's shot 30,000 rounds on 14 pound springs. No frame damage.

I've got a pair of Colts that have never seen more than 16 pound springs, and I've used 14 pound springs in them at times...for nearly 200,00 rounds per gun. I've shot old, soft USGI pistols with GI-spec hardball...with the GI surplus springs because that's all we had. Figure about 14.5 pounds for those. No frame damage.

Jim Keenan reports 8500 rounds of hardball through a Norinco on the original Chinese spring. No frame damage.

You'd think that with all that shootin' there would be some impact abutment peening, regardless of the spring...because the slide hits the frame every time the gun fires.

Yet...in nearly 5 decades of 1911 shootin'...and there have been many and there's been a lot of ammo burned...I've never seen the "peening" that everybody is so bent outta the hatframe over unless the abutment was badly machined, and those got beaten out within 200 rounds.

So, ask yourself a question.

If the spring doesn't prevent frame damage...what is the other "important function" that you keep alluding to? It only does two things.

But, I'll tell ya what I'll do. I'll do a one-man workshop with Hangingrock at his convenience, and I'll let him shoot one of my pistols without a spring so he can report on how hard it kicks.

What say you HR? You game? Say when. I'm retired and pretty much available any day.

 

[CAWalter]

Regardless of what anyone else thinks, I believe the thread has been interesting with Tuner bring in new claims, and disputing them all by his self.

Who brought up frame battering? I didn't, nor do I see anyone else besides Tuner, did either.

It's been stated that the 1911 will shoot without a recoil spring, never a doubt, and said so myself.

What I did say however is if you're going to use a recoil spring it is best chosen for the PF of the load you plan to shoot.

I also said it will run with the same load with at least 3 different spring weights. Or the same spring and a spread of PF loads in a reasonable range. The feel will be different.

The point is simply by tuning with the recoil spring choice, by the load, will result in an easier to shoot pistol, little muzzle rise or dip. Nothing wrong with fast, and accurate.

Picking the recoil spring simply for the ability of it to strip a round and chamber leaves a lot to be desired. Balance.

CAW

 

[larryh1108]

Back to the marketing spring companies do to sell springs. How many of us change their recoil springs "just because" they have 500, 1000, 2500 or whatever rounds on them? Personally, I don't change them until the gun shows a noticable difference in it's handling, mainly if it has FTRB.

I compare it to the recomended oil changes in cars. How many here know that for the last 10 years, most manufacturers have changed the oil change intervals to 5,000 or 7,500 miles? How many still change their oil every 3,000 miles because we always have? How many oil change places put that little sticker on the window showing the next oil change 3,000 miles later? How many ads tell us to change it every 3,000 miles? These companies are in business to sell thier product as often as possible.

Would Ed Brown endorse Wolff springs as a way to keep your prized possession in tip-top shape? Well sure, and I bet Wolff (or whomever) supplies the springs free of charge and may even cut Ed Brown a check each month for the blurb in the owner's manual.

I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you wish to spend the $3 or $5 or $7 for a new recoil spring every 1,000 rounds then do it because it's your gun. If it makes you feel good then good for you. If you change your oil every 3,000 miles then who are we to judge you. It's your car. It's your money.

 

[CAWalter]

Personally, I don't change them until the gun shows a noticable difference in it's handling, mainly if it has FTRB.

This is exactly what Wolff recommends!

Be Safe,
CAW

 

[MCMXI]

Back to the marketing spring companies do to sell springs. How many of us change their recoil springs "just because" they have 500, 1000, 2500 or whatever rounds on them?

I'm far more concerned with having my equipment work under stress than I am about a $10 recoil spring. It costs me a little over $450 to shoot 3,000 rounds of .45 ACP (MBC 200gr LRNFP, N340, WLP). Add in match fees and the cost to get to/from the range each time and the cost of a spring every 3,000 rounds is miniscule. Heck, I'd install a new recoil spring every match if it'd help my score!! When you think about it, who is really making money when we shoot? It's not Wolff.

 

[1911Tuner]

1A. Personally, I don't change them until the gun shows a noticeable difference in it's handling, mainly if it has FTRB.

1B. This is exactly what Wolff recommends!

Which is why the spring is there to start with. To feed and return the gun to battery.
It's an action spring. A bolt return spring. Are you now alluding to this...or are you just trying to be contrary?
********************

2. Who brought up frame battering?

What other function could the spring be involved with? You and a few other seem to feel like there's some other critical function. I figured that was what it was by default.
*****************

3A. I also said it will run with the same load with at least 3 different spring weights. Or the same spring and a spread of PF loads in a reasonable range. The feel will be different.

3B.The point is simply by tuning with the recoil spring choice, by the load, will result in an easier to shoot pistol, little muzzle rise or dip. Nothing wrong with fast, and accurate.

Ah! So now it's about tuning the gun to a certain power factor to make it easier to shoot.

Now we 're seeing where your argument is grounded. Tuning a gun for games of "Let's go pretend we're in a gunfight" instead of what the function of the spring actually is.
My statements have been centered around function...what the spring is there to do...and yours is about juggling spring rates in order to reduce your split times in a match. Really?

Okay. I can go with that logic. I used to fine-tune my Mustangs so I could shave a couple tenths off my elapsed times at the local dragstrip for Sunday afternoon grudge races before the main event...'cause, that's what Mustangs were built for. Right?
***************

4. Heck, I'd install a new recoil spring every match if it'd help my score!!

And we keep coming back to games and scores. Everybody seems to be so focused on that one point that they're willing to fight over a simple statement that was made purely from a design/function standpoint.

To wit:

The recoil spring's PRIMARY FUNCTION...is to return the slide to battery. That it does decelerate the slide and reduce impact is a natural result of being compressed by the slide...but that's incidental, and has nothing to do with why the spring is there.

If it had been simply stated that we can also use different spring rates to alter the handling characteristics of the gun, we would have been in agreement. I'm well aware of that fact, because I've mentioned it several times...but that doesn't mean that's what the spring is there for.

I hate to break it to ya, guys...but the gun itself wasn't designed to play games with.
Not IDPA/USPSA...Not Bullseye...Not IPSC...but it seems like that's what everybody wants to believe.

The recoil/action spring's main function is feeding...chambering...and returning the gun to battery so it can be fired again. Everything else is irrelevant.

 

[MCMXI]

1911Tuner,
Is anyone disputing the fact that the recoil spring's primary function is to propel the slide back into battery? I think everyone knows that. When was the discussion ever about the primary function? Wasn't the discussion always about what happens when the slide is moving in the opposite direction .... case ejection, frame battering etc?

I hate to break it to ya, guys...but the gun itself wasn't designed to play games with.
Not IDPA/USPSA...Not Bullseye...Not IPSC...but it seems like that's what everybody wants to believe.

The 1911 was designed to send a big chunk of lead downrange. Whether it's being stopped by a Filipino on drugs, a steel popper or an IPSC paper target, the 1911 doesn't know the difference.

 

[1911Tuner]

Q. Is anyone disputing the fact that the recoil spring's primary function is to propel the slide back into battery?

A. There seems to be. Yes.

I'm running out of words in my attempt to explain my point on this question. All I said was that the spring's function is driving the slide forward...that it should be seen as more of an action spring than a recoil spring...and everything went fugasi from there.

To wit:

"You're saying that there is only one important function of the recoil spring. I ain't buyin' it."

"I can tune the spring to the PF of the load and give myself an edge in a match."

"If I can get a little better score by changing the spring, I'll do it."

Et al, ad infinitum

That's acknowledged, and agreed with...but it has nothing to do with the spring's purpose.

I'll try another analogy with Smith & Wesson revolvers.

The rebound spring's only function is driving the rebound slide forward and resetting the hammer and trigger. That's what it does. We can juggle the spring rate to increase or decrease the trigger pull weight...but that's not what the spring is there for.

Mainspring. We can play with that one to increase or decrease the load on the hammer and alter the trigger pull...but the mainspring's function is driving the hammer. That's all it's there for.

Is anybody making the connection here?

I'm trying to explain function. Nothing more.

 

[Scimmia]

Q. Is anyone disputing the fact that the recoil spring's primary function is to propel the slide back into battery?

A. There seems to be. Yes.

This is the rub, Tuner. There's not a single person in this thread disputing that the recoil spring's primary function is to return the slide to battery. Everyone acknowledges that and agrees with you. You do NOT need to keep arguing this point, you're "preaching to the choir".

You've finally acknowledged that the recoil spring will change felt recoil. This is all we've been trying to say! The difference here is that you say that it's "incidental" and we say that it's an important part of Browning's brilliant design. To quote you're post earlier:

It works to bleed momentum from the slide, and thus slows it down a bit...but that wasn't my idea. It was John Browning's...and as I said before...he and the Colt team worked out the spring rates a long time ago.

it seems you agree! Recoil characteristics are an important part of pistol design, and the 1911 wouldn't be the pistol it is if Browning and his team didn't do that work getting the spring rates correct for it's intended purpose of shooting military hardball ammo. Again, not incidental, but important work.

 

[CAWalter]

Let's summarize.
1. I don't play gunfight and do not ever plan on one, or playing in one.

2. Since returning to battery is something a 7# to 28# recoil spring can do reliably, the best recoil spring weight choice is picked by the PF.

3. Since the 1911 will shoot reliably without a recoil spring, it is no longer needed.

4. We, that enjoy controlled recoil, and back on target with barely a muzzle rise or dip should continue to use recoil springs, as they close the slide to battery, and aid in our shooting pleasure and comfort, chose the recoil spring by PF.

5. Tuner's old Colts don't like 16# springs after 2500 rounds because,.....why? Battering? FTRB? Really?
A Wolff 16# recoil spring after 2500 rounds will register about 1/2# lighter in full recoil and 1# in battery, about like a new 15#. So?

6. 2500 rounds with a 10# recoil spring and it ran fine. Excellent!

CAW

 

[1911Tuner]

*sigh*

1.it seems you agree! Recoil characteristics are an important part of pistol design...etc.

No. Slowing/delaying the slide isn't about recoil control, or whatever you want to call it. It's about delaying the breech opening as long as possible and keeping slide speeds down in order to let everything else keep up...mainly the magazine. It's not about recoil control. It's mainly about reliability.

Let this sink in.

The recoil spring isn't about recoil. It's a bolt return spring. Believe it.

2. Tuner's old Colts don't like 16# springs after 2500 rounds because,.....why? Battering? FTRB?

My Colts like 16 pound springs a lot, but dirty guns need a little more push sometimes. No? I let'em get real dirty before I clean'em. Laziness and too much on my plate is the culprit here...but at least you're now saying that the recoil spring's primary job is returning the slide to battery...so you've progressed a bit. Congratulations.


3. Since the 1911 will shoot reliably without a recoil spring, it is no longer needed.

Now you're just being silly. Was that statement really necessary...or are you frustrated because I won't say that the reason the spring was put there was so that 70 years later, the mad scientists could experiment with different rates to get the gun to act they way they want it to?

4. We, that enjoy controlled recoil, and back on target with barely a muzzle rise or dip should continue to use recoil springs, as they aid in our shooting pleasure and comfort, chose the recoil spring by PF.

I never said that you couldn't or shouldn't do that. I said that the spring's reason for being there is to return the slide to battery. A simple fact of the design. And we who know how to shoot don't really have a problem controlling recoil. Sorry that you have a problem. We ain't exactly talkin' .44 magnum class kick here.

5. 2500 rounds with a 10# recoil spring and it ran fine. Excellent!

And now you've turned to condescension because I've demonstrated that a light spring doesn't damage the frame? How nice.

6. I don't play gunfight and do not ever plan on one, or playing in one.

Then why do you keep referring to power factors dictating the spring rate? Do you really change springs for every different level of ammunition that you fire? Really? That sounds like an awful lot of unnecessary tinkerin'...but if that's what you like, then by all means...have at it.

What does power factor have to do with getting the slide back to battery anyway?

Now, I have a couple questions for you, Scimma.

Do you understand that the spring sets up an action/reaction event of its own...separate and apart from the ballistic event that set everything into motion?

Do you understand that the stiffer the recoil spring, the sharper the felt recoil will be?
Do you know why?

Do you understand that the gun actually moves very little in recoil while the ballistic recoil is happening...and that by the time you actually detect any recoil...that the bullet is about 20 yards downrange?

Too bad you live so far away. You could do with a workshop.

 

[Sean Smith]

Tuner, I'm pretty confident you're being trolled by a couple of dudes who are arguing for argument's sake.

 

[1911Tuner]

I think so, Sean...but it gives others who are following the discussion the opportunity to understand the gun better...so it's got merit on that point at least.

Part of the misunderstanding is attributable to the term "Recoil" spring. That, in itself leads people to believe that it's got something to do with recoil...or something besides the fact that it compresses when the slide recoils and moves backward.

My points have been pretty clear, and I don't know why it's generating such hostile resistance.

Yes. You can change the recoil characteristics of the gun by changing the spring...but that's not what the spring is there for. It's a return spring. Anything else that it does..and anything else that the individual does with it by changing rates...is essentially irrelevant.

I guess that's beyond the grasp of some folks.

 

[Scimmia]

Now, I have a couple questions for you, Scimma.

Do you understand that the spring sets up an action/reaction event of its own...separate and apart from the ballistic event that set everything into motion?

I'm going to assume that by "ballistic event" you mean the bullet leaving the barrel. I won't say the recoil spring's event is separate and apart, but it is caused by the ballistic event and uses energy from such for it's action/reaction event. I understand the ballistic event is over before the recoil spring comes into play at all. If you're talking about the ballistic event of the slide, I would disagree completely.

Do you understand that the stiffer the recoil spring, the sharper the felt recoil will be?
Do you know why?

Only to a point. Felt recoil is a balancing act involving a lot of things. The recoil spring will affect the "push" felt while the slide is in motion as well as the "snap" felt when the slide impacts the frame. Too much of one or the other is a bad thing. So yes, a recoil spring that's too stiff for the load being shot will move too much of the recoil force up in the cycle and show more felt recoil. It will also leave too much energy in the spring and cause far too much dive for the amount of snap when the slide returns to battery. On the other hand, a spring that's too weak will leave too much "snap" and also increase felt recoil. Balance is key.

Do you understand that the gun actually moves very little in recoil while the ballistic recoil is happening...and that by the time you actually detect any recoil...that the bullet is about 20 yards downrange?

Of course the gun doesn't move much during ballistic recoil, if it did, autoloaders wouldn't work. We're talking about recoil felt through the entire cycle, both when it happens and how it's perceived.

Too bad you live so far away. You could so with a workshop.

Believe me Tuner, I would love one. You know more about the 1911 that I could ever hope to.

You've already stated that the recoil spring will affect felt recoil. I really think our only difference here is that I believe that recoil handling is an important part of the design and you see it as incidental. Differing opinions.

 

[1911Tuner]

Scimma...since you indicated that you'd like to learn, I'll do a quick explanation on the points that you mentioned.

Felt recoil...what we recognize as muzzle flip...comes when the slide hits the frame.

Before that happens, recoil is only transmitted to the frame through springs. The action/recoil spring, and the hammer/mainspring.

The slide moves only about 1/10th inch when the bullet exits. Once the bullet is gone, there is no more ballistic recoil. A 16-pound spring provides about 7.5 pounds of static preload. Compressing it another 10th inch just doesn't add much to that. Neither does moving up to 18 pounds. There just isn't a lot of difference.

Keeping the slide speed low does reduce muzzle flip because it hits the impact abutment with less force...but the difference between a 16 vs an 18 pound spring is negligible...and it's more than compensated for by the heavier spring imposing more force backward as it compresses.

The hammer/mainspring has more influence on the slide's recoiling speed than the recoil spring. (Please note that this doesn't mean that the hammer spring's "other" function is in controlling recoil. It's only function is driving the hammer.) It does do that, but like the recoil spring...that's incidental.

Neither the recoil spring nor the mainspring have much influence over the slide as compared to the delaying force imposed by the bullet passing through the barrel and the forward drag that it imposes on the barrel. The two springs only add a bit to the delay...and not very much at that. The bullet is the real force in play when the talk turns to slide speed in recoil.

If you could go far enough up with the coefficient of friction, you could stop the slide from moving at all. Of course, that would also mean that the bullet wouldn't move, either. Force forward is force backward. Whatever force is imposed in one direction is imposed in the other direction. That applies whether compelling or resisting. Whether pushing or pulling.

The bullet is under high frictional resistance as it passes through the barrel. Because the slide grabs the barrel by the lugs and pulls it backward...the barrel is also under resistance. Whatever resistance the barrel offers to the bullet...the bullet also offers to the barrel...and whatever resists the barrel resists the slide. That is the secret to the locked breech, recoil operated pistol and how the slide is delayed long enough to let the bullet escape before the breech opens. Were it not for that fact, the action/recoil spring would have to be so heavy that it would require a windlass to manually operate the slide.

Think about it for a minute. It doesn't take a lot of force to drive the slide. You can hand-cycle it as fast as it moves when it fires...or faster...if you're strong and quick. This, even with a 20-pound spring...or more.

Bring the bullet into the equation, and with just a little too much spring...or go a little too low on power...and the slide will short cycle.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

Tuner

I refitted the slides at around the 75,000 round mark for each, and they're both on their third barrel.

What is the life expectancy of a barrel? I had the understanding that it was near impossible to wear out a .45 Auto barrel.. even with jacketed ammo.

 

[Scimmia]

Well Tuner, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know, and I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Let's try this instead:

Stricly from a recoil perspective, would you run a 10 lb recoil spring and a 17 lb main spring in a 1911 shooting full power 45 Super full time? Why or why not?

Notice that I'm asking strictly about recoil, ignore the unlock timing issue the light main spring could cause.

 

[Hangingrock]

But, I'll tell ya what I'll do. I'll do a one-man workshop with Hangingrock at his convenience, and I'll let him shoot one of my pistols without a spring so he can report on how hard it kicks. What say you HR? You game? Say when. I'm retired and pretty much available any day.

I sent you (2) PM concerning your invite I’ll be there but it’ll be later than sooner as to the reason why. Take a deep breath, calm, and relax. That’s what I’m doing after this 1.6-inch micro burst of rain in twenty minutes has created havoc on my construction project.:banghead:

 

[1911Tuner]

Good deal HR. I'm ready when you are.

Scimma...I caution people about .45 Super a lot. I don't want to shoot it with either spring. Not in one of my guns. That stuff'll bust your slide, no matter which recoil spring you use.

For the sake of sticking to the question...Let's not go so far off the scale in trying to prove anything one way or another.

To answer it...The slide will strike the impact surface wicked hard with either spring. Harder with the lighter spring. But that's apples to oranges because the cartridge itself is so far out of spec. Instead...Let's ask for a comparison between an 18-pound spring and a 22-pounder.

Recoil will be tough with either one. We're talking near-.44 Magnum ballistics...asking the gun to do far and away beyond what it was designed to do. Increase the spring rate, and the equal/opposite reaction imposed by the spring will result in sharper felt recoil before the slide hits. Decrease the spring rate, and the spring-induced recoil is reduced, but the impact induced muzzle flip increases. Because your brain can't process the information quickly enough, you can't separate the two impetuses...so you may not be able to detect any difference at all.

And, also for the record...The spring...light, heavy, or no spring at all...doesn't have anything to do with unlock timing. "Timing" is mechanically fixed, and occurs at its appointed place in the cycle, regardless of the speed of the cycle.

Congratulations on understanding the bullet's role in slide delay, by the way. That one has given me more trouble in getting across than anything else via the written word. I've used every analogy I can think of, but it meets with resistance about 95% of the time. Face to face...with a simple demo...the light comes on.

I had a house guest 4 years ago who came here to take an engraving course at a local community college. A custom knife maker and pistolsmith...we talked at length about the 1911. He also didn't see it. I did the demo, and the light came on for him, too. When he returned home, he visited with Jim Clark, Jr. who is a personal friend of his. He apprenticed under his father.

When he relayed the information to the younger Clark he said that he friwned slightly... got quiet for a minute...put his file down and said:

"I'll be damned! That's exactly what happens. I never thought of if, but that's exactly how it works. I'll be (Many expletives deleted) Jim can be very...colorful...in his speech.

 

[JohnBT]

" Since returning to battery is something a 7# to 28# recoil spring can do reliably"

Not if the gun is underlubed and/or caked with mud, sand and dirt. I know I want a spring that will close the slide with authority. And 7# ain't it. I wouldn't trust 10 or 12#.

I still never knew there was an issue with recoil springs. And we're revisiting it to boot. I guess I'll have to search for the original thread.

 

[CAWalter]

" Since returning to battery is something a 7# to 28# recoil spring can do reliably"

Not if the gun is underlubed and/or caked with mud, sand and dirt. I know I want a spring that will close the slide with authority. And 7# ain't it. I wouldn't trust 10 or 12#.

I still never knew there was an issue with recoil springs. And we're revisiting it to boot. I guess I'll have to search for the original thread.

You're right, nothing can overcome misuse and abuse. The 7#and 8# are mostly used in comp guns any way, although I do run an 8 1/2# in a Colt 9MM with 3.5 Bullseye under a 124gr. In 45acp 10# -14# seems to be the best range for me.

Yep, a re-visit, then a re-re-visit. I never saw the visit either, if you come across it, post the link. Maybe I wouldn't have had to do a re-visit.

CAW

 

[1911Tuner]

John...or gummed up with a cast bullet lube/carbon cack.

 

[Scimmia]

Decrease the spring rate, and the spring-induced recoil is reduced, but the impact induced muzzle flip increases.

Bingo. This is what all of the people arguing with you have been trying to get across this entire thread. I know you say your brain may not be able to process quickly enough to tell the difference, but that split second differentation of when the recoil hits your hand can and will change the perception. It's all about balancing those two forces. Hence a heavy recoil spring for heavy loads and a light spring for light loads.

And, also for the record...The spring...light, heavy, or no spring at all...doesn't have anything to do with unlock timing. "Timing" is mechanically fixed, and occurs at its appointed place in the cycle, regardless of the speed of the cycle.

The main spring can most certainly have an effect, the same way the small radius on the FPS does. In fact, the small radius simulates a stronger main spring. The mechanical advantage gained with the larger radius could be offset with a stronger main spring and give you the same effect. It will slow/delay the movement of the slide a tiny fraction of a second, which I'm told can be important when shooting extreme loads.

Congratulations on understanding the bullet's role in slide delay, by the way. That one has given me more trouble in getting across than anything else via the written word. I've used every analogy I can think of, but it meets with resistance about 95% of the time. Face to face...with a simple demo...the light comes on.

It really is a simple concept, but I can see how it would be much easier to get across with a demonstration than through text. For a reloader, I would liken it to pushing a bullet into the case. You push on the bullet, but the friction involved transfers all of that force to the case, so if you don't have something holding the case secure, there's no way you can get the bullet in. The bullet traveling down the barrel is being pressed the same way by the expanding gasses, and friction is transfering a lot of that forward energy to the barrel, keeping it locked.

 

[CAWalter]

Whew Scimmia! Same page!!

CAW

 

[1911Tuner]

On "Timing"

Quote:

>The main spring can most certainly have an effect,<

Nope. Sorry. Springs don't affect timing. They affect time...but not timing.

Timing is fixed. Time is variable.

Unlock timing starts just after the bullet exits, and is all over at .250 inch of slide travel.
This, regardless of how fast or slow the slide moves...regardless of where the slide is when the bullet exits.

Timing is mechanically fixed and only changes through wear or parts failure. Time is a function of speed and distance and is variable by the level of applied force.

There are only two parts on the 1911 pistol that are timed.