Let us revisit the 1911 recoil spring issue.

[JDGray]

Tuner,
I run what comes in the gun factory, never needed to change the weight. My SA Milspec makes a nice pile 6' away, and figure thats good enough for me. Thanks for all your advice you give us, its nice having your experiance on the board!

 

[Onmilo]

After trying several different spring weights and compositions on 1911 pistols over the years, I have settled on 18 pound chrome silicone springs for my guns.
Your results may vary,,,

 

[1911Tuner]

JD...Did that Mil Spec have a spring with a dab of yellow paint on a coil near the closed end? If it did...it'll test at about 14 pounds.

 

[EddieNFL]

Last night, on a whim, I disassembled a 1911 and inspected it for battering. No black eyes, no bloody nose, no shock buff and 14 pound springs. I use the IMSIs and change when they loss length. Gun's about 30K down the pipe and I clean it every 500-600 rounds whether it needs it or not.

I often wonder how we ever managed to get along before we had shock buffers...extra power springs...and full-length guide rods.

And 1911s were much smaller, lighter and had higher magazine capacity back then. At least I assume they did as I've been told on numerous occasions they're too big, too heavy and don't have the mag capacity to be carried.

 

[JDGray]

Just pulled the Milspec spring, no paint.....but I have one that does thats a little shorter. Milspec runs like a swiss watch

 

[1911Tuner]

Yep, Eddie. Like I said...I hear all the dire warnings of destroying my frames if I don't run a spring with X rating and change it often...and I have to shake my head and chuckle.

Marketing. They want to sell you a spring.

JD...The painted spring looks like one that came out of a GI Mil Spec. The ones I've seen have 28 coils of .043 wire diameter. Yours has 25 coils. (The longer one has 31.5 coils.) Wolff 14-pound springs are 32 coils of the same diameter. Did the short one come out of a GI Springfield?

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I have to ask.
Why do the spring makers manufacture and sell a spring that needs to be cut to 24 coils for optimal function?
If I missed the explanation, I'm sorry about that. 1911 is not my thing.

 

[JDGray]

I'm bad for not marking my takeout parts I'm thinking it came out of my SA Loaded 5".....However, I had a S&W SC Commander that had a very stiff recoil spring, and it may have came out of that pistol, but I'm leaning towards the Loaded Fullsize. It was in a Wilson Combat zip lock, saying 18#, does WC put yellow paint on their springs?

 

[1911Tuner]

Just to expound on Eddie's post...

I've got a pair of beaters. Identical early Colt 1991A1s that are approaching 400,000 rounds collectively. I refitted the slides at around the 75,000 round mark for each, and they're both on their third barrel.

I've shot varying ammunition in both, but 95% of it has been with cast 200 SWCs and 6 grains of Unique for a clocked velocity of 890-ish fps. Recoil is a dead ringer for GI hardball, and the guns shoot it like a house afire.

I use Wolff 16-pound springs, and I change them at 2500 rounds. Not because I'm concerned with frame "battering" or anything like that...but because I'm lazy and give the guns only a cursory wipe down and put a drop of oil in the rails at the end of the session. The combination of bullet lube and powder gets'em pretty filthy, and I like the extra feed/RTB reliability offered by keeping the springs fresh. SO, I tear the guns all the way down every 2500 rounds and scrub'em out, and add fresh springs. At less than 3 dollars a pop...why not?

I don't toss those used springs, though. In a clean, reasonably oiled gun, they work fine. Neither of my beaters have any discernible damage in the impact abutments....frame or slide.

What are we to make of this...except marketing hype?

EDIT TO ADD:

JD...The only springs that I've seen that yellow paint on have been in Springfields. Wilson Combat uses Wolff springs. You can save money by ordering them from Brownells in bulk packs if you need several...and even one at a time is cheaper than ordering WC, even if you get those from Brownells, too. You pay a premium for the name.

 

[JohnBT]

"revisit the 1911 recoil spring issue"

Here I am about to turn 61 and in all those years of shooting I didn't know there was an issue.

 

[Hangingrock]

I’m not looking for one-upmanship, water sprinkling contest, and causing hissy fits but rather a reasonable discussion as to why.

In the big scheme of things there is probably little application difference between a 14-lbs and 16-lbs spring other than the obvious rate of deflection difference. Wolff specifies one as reduced power and the other as standard.

1911 Tuner, thank you for your invitation to the September workshop. Send PM me on this forum when you have settled on a date and time.

 

[1911Tuner]

In the big scheme of things there is probably little application difference between a 14-lbs and 16-lbs spring other than the obvious rate of deflection difference. Wolff specifies one as reduced power and the other as standard.
************************

There isn't a lot of difference. I don't know when or from whence it came that 16 pounds was accepted as standard. The original spring wasn't described in pounds, and the only specifications were 32.75 turns of .043 diameter music wire. Comparing that to a Wolff 14-pound spring made up of 32 turns of .043 diameter wire...it would work out to about 14.5 pounds at full compression, and about 13.5 at full slide travel installed in the gun.

Later, when the change came, the spring specifications were altered to 30 turns of .045inch wire diameter. Again, comparing that to a 16-pound Wolff spring consisting of 32 turns of .044 diameter...it would seem that very little in the way of rate and total load resistance changed.

Describing a spring in "pounds" is simple and easy for the masses to understand, but it only reveals one aspect of the spring, and not the important one. The spring's rate tells far more about how the spring behaves...both in compression and release...but to describe the spring in pounds per inch of compression would cause a lot of confusion.

The spring's preload strength is also an important consideration. How much force it exerts on the system as installed and static. A 16-pound variable rate spring for instance, provides the same resistance at full compression as its non-variable counterpart...but somewhat less in its static, preload state.

One thing you can be sure of, though. John Browning and his Dream Team consisting of about a dozen of Colt's top engineers burned a lot of midnight oil in working out those spring rates...main/hammer and recoil/action springs...over a century ago. So many people have been trying for so long to outsmart those guys, that some really believe they have. Hard for'em to accept that a man born in the middle of the 19th century...and never had an engineering degree...had the answer all along.

About 30 years ago, I accepted the fact that I'd have to stand on a stepladder just to look ol' Mose in the eye.

 

[JDGray]

Tuner,
Thinking back, the yellow painted spring was cut down to fit in my commander, then removed to put the original back in. It is now in the trash! Again, thanks for sharing your knowlege

 

[CAWalter]

Describing a spring in "pounds" is simple and easy for the masses to understand, but it only reveals one aspect of the spring, and not the important one. The spring's rate tells far more about how the spring behaves...both in compression and release...but to describe the spring in pounds per inch of compression would cause a lot of confusion.

It seems the use of the term masses was meant to be demeaning, but we all are what makes up masses.

It is a simple description, but the buyer/user/masses/expert, must make a few assumptions. These assumptions include that the spring is long enough to attain that poundage at full recoil, and not so long as to stack at full recoil, and that it has sufficient free length to have pre-load, or in battery weight.

In Conventional springs the spring rate is described in terms of pounds per inch. So for a given spring the total spring weight is divided by the total working length of the spring.

So looking at a 16# recoil spring for a GM is 6.5" in length and stacks at 1 1/2". This leaves 5" as the working, compressible length, so knowing that weight the spring rate can be easily seen as 16#/5"= a spring rate of 3.2#/per inch. Put two 16# springs end to end as if they are one spring and it will still have a weight of 16#, and a spring rate of 1.6#/per inch. Cut a GM 16# spring in half, now what? It still has a weight of 16# at full compression, but a spring rate of 6.4#/per inch. The first and last coil's influence are not taken into account in these descriptions to simplify, for the purpose of understanding the principle.

Is this then really more descriptive of a given spring? Not necessarily, if we don't make assumptions as before. Just as there are any number of different spring configurations in length and diameter that will give the same full compressed weight. So are there just as many that will give the same spring rate.

Is it correct to say the spring rate is more descriptive than the weight at full compression of full recoil. Of course not. It is simply a standard of recognition of a single item. Conversely the spring rate could be used in the same way, but again we would have to make assumptions that if it were listed as a GM spring of given spring rate, it would also be such that the free length and full compressed length are compatible for the intended purpose.

Neither the spring rate, nor the weight at full recoil compression is more descriptive than the other without making assumptions about the spring's intended purpose to begin with.

CAW

 

[1911Tuner]

"It seems the use of the term masses was meant to be demeaning, but we all are what makes up masses.<

It seems that you're making assumptions. That wasn't the way it was meant at all, but I suppose if you want to take it that way, it's your call.

The "masses" aren't all engineers. They understand pounds without further explanation.

CAW...I know that you want badly to believe that recoil springs are primarily about controlling slide speed and impact...but the plain simple fact is that they're no more than bolt return springs. The primary function is readying the gun for the next round. Stripping...feeding...chambering...and placing the bolt in battery. All else is incidental. It really is just that simple.

It's a little like stating that the bullet's purpose is to make holes in things, and then arguing that its other function is sealing the case and keeping the powder dry. It does do that...but it's essentially irrelevant.

As we've covered before, all I'm trying to do is describe the function of the spring...what it's actually there for. What you choose to call it is of no consequence.
For the record, I usually just call it a recoil spring, too. It saves time and confusion.

 

[CAWalter]

Sorry this is fraught with your assumptions, I was addressing the nomenclature of recoil spring weight vs, recoil spring rate, comments only.

Recoil spring? What else would you call it, curly springy thing? Hope not.

When did the recoil springs primary function come up? Obviously an assumption. You change your recoil springs at 2500 so it will close to battery reliably. You do it for insurance, as you must be concerned it might not. After 2500 rounds a 16# spring should still give 15#-16# at full recoil and 7-8# at battery, but springs are cheap. Wolff doesn't even suggest that frequent a change, but hype is rampant. Here.

In regards to a new subject you just brought up. The recoil spring is a primary component of any auto loader as it will not auto load with out it. The gun can be shot without the spring, but is not as comfortable as a recoil spring of matched weight to PF, but unless your 1911 isn't in good working order it will close and chamber with a much lighter recoil spring. But not as controllable. I consider the comfort and control-ability of the 1911 to carry equal weight as to the slide closing. It works both ways, a 7# -28#recoil spring is available and will strip and close your 1911. And it isn't incidental that follow up shots are just a whole lot faster with a recoil spring of selected weight 14#-16# for 230gr@ 800-850FPS works quite well in all departments, not so good in the 200gr@600-650FPS, however. Hence different weight springs, with a different spring rate, for different PF. Not hype.

CAW

 

[wally]

I'm a big believer in "if it ain't broke don't fix it". The only springs I regularly end up replacing for functional reasons are in my Kimber Ultra carry, eventually it stops going fully into battery until I replace at least the outer spring (PITA to replace the inner so I've only done it once).

But I will go to the stronger recoil spring if my brass is flying too far for easy recovery.

 

[Scimmia]

CAW...I know that you want badly to believe that recoil springs are primarily about controlling slide speed and impact...but the plain simple fact is that they're no more than bolt return springs. The primary function is readying the gun for the next round. Stripping...feeding...chambering...and placing the bolt in battery. All else is incidental. It really is just that simple.

I don't buy it. You seem to be of the opinion that a part can only have one important function. Just because the primary function of the spring is to ready the gun for the next shot doesn't mean it's secondary function isn't an important factor. If it wasn't important, why did they put as strong a spring in as they did? We've seen over and over again that a 1911 will function with a MUCH weaker spring and hardball ammo, so why didn't they use an 8 lb spring?

You use the term primary function a lot, is it so hard to believe there may be an important secondary function?

Edit: You talk about the radius on the firing pin stop a lot. It's primary function is to recock the hammer. Does that make the extra recoil absorption "incidental" or is it an important secondary function of Browning's original design?

 

[1911Tuner]

Quotes aplenty:

"I don't buy it."

As is your right.


"You seem to be of the opinion that a part can only have one important function."

Well...It's not really an opinion.

About 10 years ago, Ned Christiansen studied the matter at length, and decided to prove that the spring isn't all that important, other than for returning the slide to battery.

Using one of his high-end custom 10mm pistols, he fired one repeatedly with full-power ammunition...and without a recoil spring. The frame wasn't damaged. There was no premature unlocking. There were no problems at all. The only thing the gun wouldn't do was feed the next round.

I've demonstrated the same thing several times over the last 20 years. I even accepted a challenge once from a guy who insisted that anything less than a 16 pound spring in a 5-inch gun would destroy the frame in less than 2,000 rounds. I ordered a 10-pound spring and shot the gun with hardball and hardball equivalent. 2500 rounds later, all was well. The pistol was a 1943 USGI colt...which came before they started heat-treating frames and slides. It now does light duty in my carry rotation. If the gun was compromised in any way, I wouldn't carry it. Take that to the bank.

The beliefs that you, CAW, and many others have stems from the marketing hype surrounding brass ejection distance and frame battering. I may be a little off on the timeline, but it seems like that all started in the early 80s...about the time I saw my very first shock buff. I've even heard it said that changing the spring rate will alter the timing of the gun...which is complete nonsense.

The truth is that the mainspring has more effect on keeping the slide's rearward speed in check.

The slide is nothing more than a breech bolt....exactly like the bolt in an autoloading rifle. The spring's primary function is returning the bolt to battery.

 

[CAWalter]

Making multiple assumptions again. Why would you feel the need to change out a 16# after only 2500 rounds when a 10# ran fine? Can you document this claim simply by a timeline thread reference. If not, stories are easy. I routinely run a 10# in a SA full rail TRP With the load PF that I enjoy shooting steel plate. It never misses a beat and would stove pipe if I went heavier.

CAW

 

[MCMXI]

The truth is that the mainspring has more effect on keeping the slide's rearward speed in check.

The beliefs that you, CAW, and many others have stems from the marketing hype surrounding brass ejection distance and frame battering.

But doesn't the slide's rearward velocity affect brass ejection distance? You've convinced me over the last month or so that frame battering is not an issue, but I do need/want a reliable 1911 for matches. I've found that my 1911 runs really well with an 18lb spring based on the ejection pattern and performance during stressful matches. It does have a factory installed FLGR and I only shoot one specific "major" load which is a 200gr LRNFP at around 870 fps.

Is this spring issue really "marketing hype"? The cost of a heavier spring or 3,000 round count spring changes gets lost in the noise when you consider the cost of 3,000 rounds of .45 ACP. Wolff sells springs and they have a vested interest in convincing end users that they should buy Wolff and nothing else. However, how much money do manufacturers like Ed Brown or similar make from the sale of springs? He even states that all 5" models ship with 16.5lb springs. The only other 5" spring he sells is 18lb. So I'm wondering how much of Ed Brown's rhetoric is "marketing hype".

He has this to say here ....

"Make sure your recoil spring is correctly matched to the ammunition you are shooting. When you have the proper weight recoil spring for a particular load, ejected brass should land 8-12 feet away. If brass is falling within a few feet of you, your spring is too heavy for that load. If brass lands more than about 12 feet away, your spring is too light for that load. Either case leads to reduced reliability. A common problem is a novice shooter trying to "shoot anything and everything" through his 1911 from 185 grains up to 230 grains without considering the proper recoil spring setup. Another common problem is the novice buying a carry gun with a shorter slide, then shooting the hottest personal protection ammo he can get, while ignoring the recoil spring and ejection pattern. For the ultimate in reliability, we recommend choosing a consistent high quality load and sticking with it once it's proven to work well with your particular setup."


JDGray posted a link to this from Wolff ... that first paragraph is probably the best "answer" yet. I'm starting to think that it's ridiculous for someone to say that there's only one correct choice given the shear number of variables.

3. What weight recoil spring should I use with a particular load?
This is a very common but hard question to answer in exact terms and in most cases an exact answer is not possible. There are many factors which influence the correct weight recoil spring to use. These factors include the particular ammunition brand and load, individual pistol characteristics, individual shooting styles and your individual, subjective feeling of how the gun shoots and should feel.

The factory spring weight is designed to operate the pistol with what would be considered average loads, plus or minus a little. It is not uncommon for manufacturers to specify what they consider a factory ammunition load.
In general terms, the heaviest recoil spring that will allow the pistol to function reliably is the best choice - tempered by the above factors. As a rule of thumb, if your spent casings are first hitting the ground in the 3 to 6 foot range, then the recoil spring is approximately correct. If you are ejecting beyond the 6-8 foot range, then a heavier recoil spring is generally required. If your casings are ejecting less than 3 feet, a lighter recoil spring may be needed to assure reliable functioning.

Taking these factors into consideration, it then comes down to how the gun feels and performs when shooting - in your judgment. However, using too light a recoil spring can result in damage to the pistol and possible injury to you.

 

[MCMXI]

I have to add something else here about Wolff after reading the information below. Doesn't that sound like perfectly rational, reasonable advice? Does it sound like a company whose only objective is to sell you a product that you don't need?

http://www.gunsprings.com/faq#Faq3

4. How often should I change my springs?
The performance of your gun is the best indicator of when a spring needs to be replaced. Factors such as increased ejection distance, improper ejection and/or breeching, lighter hammer indents on primers, misfires, poor cartridge feeding from magazines, frequent jams, stove pipes and other malfunctions are all possible indications of fatigued springs or improper springs.

Springs such as magazine springs, striker springs and recoil springs are subjected to higher stress levels and will require more frequent replacement than other lower stressed springs such as firing pin springs and hammer springs.

Wolff springs are made with the highest grade materials and workmanship. Most Wolff [recoil] springs will remain stable for many thousands of rounds. Some recoil springs in compact pistols, especially where dual springs are used or are replaced by a single spring may require changing after 500 - 1500 rounds. Springs that become rusty, bent or otherwise damaged should always be replaced. Again, changes you observe in your firearm's performance are the best indicators that a change is needed.

 

[1911Tuner]

1851...What does increased ejection distance mean in the grand scheme of things?
I like for the brass to pile up in a neat circle 5 feet from my foot as much as anybody...but that's a convenience...not a required feature. A nice thing for reloaders, but as long as the brass clears the port without getting in the way of the slide, it really doesn't matter if it falls on top of my foot or into the next county. Besides...there are other factors that can influence that.

Let's recap.

The action/recoil spring does only two things. It compresses and it uncorks its stored energy. That's it. That's all it does.

My own experience, and Eddie's have pretty much debunked the frame battering myth.
So has Jim K's...and he's an old hand with 1911s. 8500 rounds on an OEM NOrinco spring...and his pistol is fine. Go talk to several IDPA and USPSA competitors and you'll probably find several who run 14 pound springs. Some even run 12s, and they shoot a lot of Major PF. Some of'em hit as much as 50,000 rounds annually. Ask them if their frames are beat to gobbets. Many do run buffers...but that's to reduce muzzle flip from the slide hitting the frame...where 90% of muzzle flip comes from.

So...If the recoil spring doesn't have much effect in protecting the frame and slide abutments from impact damage, as has been obserrved...What other purpose does it serve? What other purpose can it serve? It only does two things. It compresses and it returns to its original static length. That's it.

 

[MCMXI]

1851...What does increased ejection distance mean in the grand scheme of things?

Not necessarily increased, since in my case I was trying to decrease the ejection distance. But you raise an interesting point. Is there a correlation between ejection distance and pistol reliability? Ed Brown and Wolff seem to think there is. I'm more inclined to think that consistency is more important rather than a specific distance. I still need to put the 16lb factory spring back in my Kimber to see how it runs with it. I lack motivation because the 18lb spring seems to work so well. For the record, I use factory springs in my DWs, EBs and another Kimber with a 4" barrel.

One thing I did read the other day is that a stiffer recoil spring can result in hammer follow if the sear spring or sear/hammer hooks engagement is marginal.

 

[Scimmia]

Using one of his high-end custom 10mm pistols, he fired one repeatedly with full-power ammunition...and without a recoil spring. The frame wasn't damaged. There was no premature unlocking. There were no problems at all. The only thing the gun wouldn't do was feed the next round.
...
The beliefs that you, CAW, and many others have stems from the marketing hype surrounding brass ejection distance and frame battering. I may be a little off on the timeline, but it seems like that all started in the early 80s...about the time I saw my very first shock buff. I've even heard it said that changing the spring rate will alter the timing of the gun...which is complete nonsense.

The truth is that the mainspring has more effect on keeping the slide's rearward speed in check.

And just how controllable was this 10mm pistol? I never said anything about altering timing or frame battering, just said that it was an important part of the design. How the pistol handles recoil can make the difference between a crappy pistol and a great one.

If slide velocity isn't important, why bother switching to the small radius slide stop? It's about changing the distribution of the recoil force, which the recoil spring plays a part in. You had made a statement in another thread that if there was a way of hydraulically returning the slide to battery, that could be used as well as a recoil spring. How about doing the same with the hammer? Now there's nothing slowing the slide, how would it feel to shoot that pistol?