Scimmia
Member
You're right, the delay I was talking about is time, not timing in the cycle. My bad, wrong terminology.
Let us revisit the 1911 recoil spring issue.
- Thread starter Hangingrock
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You're right, the delay I was talking about is time, not timing in the cycle. My bad, wrong terminology.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Notta problem.
I think the idea of springs and timing started in a gun rag. Some writer cautioned about changing springs because it would alter the slide timing and his readers bought it. I remember having a good laugh over that one after somebody mentioned it in a gun shop. The barrel is timed...not the slide...and it's not dependent on the spring. I also remember that I met with hostile resistance trying to explain it...but that's something I've come to expect.
I think the idea of springs and timing started in a gun rag. Some writer cautioned about changing springs because it would alter the slide timing and his readers bought it. I remember having a good laugh over that one after somebody mentioned it in a gun shop. The barrel is timed...not the slide...and it's not dependent on the spring. I also remember that I met with hostile resistance trying to explain it...but that's something I've come to expect.
HisSoldier
Member
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A couple of questions for anyone who knows.
1. Do flatwire springs hold up better because there is more room (Due to the flat wire taking up less space) so that the compressed spring never touches the turn in front or behind it? I've often wondered if springs that are all mangled get that way because of hard contact of round surfaces with round surfaces, no where to go but out or inside the original diameter. With flat wire springs compression to contact would be controlled, a hard stop without radial movement. But of course my original question was about the thinner section allowing less potential for contact.
2. I've asked this before but didn't get an answer I understood. Why do some full auto guns use a twisted wire recoil spring? Is it related to frequency of fire or harmonics within the spring? I seem to recall a question about damping in sustained FA fire.
1. Do flatwire springs hold up better because there is more room (Due to the flat wire taking up less space) so that the compressed spring never touches the turn in front or behind it? I've often wondered if springs that are all mangled get that way because of hard contact of round surfaces with round surfaces, no where to go but out or inside the original diameter. With flat wire springs compression to contact would be controlled, a hard stop without radial movement. But of course my original question was about the thinner section allowing less potential for contact.
2. I've asked this before but didn't get an answer I understood. Why do some full auto guns use a twisted wire recoil spring? Is it related to frequency of fire or harmonics within the spring? I seem to recall a question about damping in sustained FA fire.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
"A couple of questions for anyone who knows."
One coil should never touch another, whether flat or traditional. That's called coil bind, and is potentially destructive...to both spring and gun.
As to the other question...I dunno.
One coil should never touch another, whether flat or traditional. That's called coil bind, and is potentially destructive...to both spring and gun.
As to the other question...I dunno.
Magnumite
Member
Alot of nice chat here. I follow it. The spring is dual acting as indicated and it does effect slide velocity. Over springing (recoil spring) will cause short stroking, excessive slide recoil felt. These are all recoil movement related. I buy the primary reason for the recoil spring is RTB, but to nay say it as only that I think will lead to problems. I bought one such 1911 years back. The lug in the frame where the recoil shield of the spring guide rod seats was badly peened. The spring had several coils cut off if it. So battering will occur.
" That stuff'll bust your slide, no matter which recoil spring you use".
Here is an example where the recoil (opposite reaction to the bullet being discharged) exceeded the design parameters of the pistol. No problem there. The excessive slide velocity is caused by the recoil energy of the round pushing on the slide. So basically what is being said is there is damage from excessive slide velocity (recoil) but not the frame. For years one slide manufacturer has had precautions about that concerning higher intensity cartridge use.
Recoil and slide velocity are managed in several ways as discussed throughout the thread. But to dismiss the recoil spring as being unnecessary factor, I think is frivolous. Yes, several of us use lighter than "standard" weight springs for different reasons. But the consensus seems to be within given limits with appropriate other changes, all is well.
The no recoil spring firings of the 1911 with ball as a demo is one thing and very informative. Now fire one 1911 with hardball for 2500 rounds that way. For the purists' terror, a flgr should be used since the gi part wi not stay aligned. Almost tempting to do, but I'd rather work on my marksmanship with that ammo.
" That stuff'll bust your slide, no matter which recoil spring you use".
Here is an example where the recoil (opposite reaction to the bullet being discharged) exceeded the design parameters of the pistol. No problem there. The excessive slide velocity is caused by the recoil energy of the round pushing on the slide. So basically what is being said is there is damage from excessive slide velocity (recoil) but not the frame. For years one slide manufacturer has had precautions about that concerning higher intensity cartridge use.
Recoil and slide velocity are managed in several ways as discussed throughout the thread. But to dismiss the recoil spring as being unnecessary factor, I think is frivolous. Yes, several of us use lighter than "standard" weight springs for different reasons. But the consensus seems to be within given limits with appropriate other changes, all is well.
The no recoil spring firings of the 1911 with ball as a demo is one thing and very informative. Now fire one 1911 with hardball for 2500 rounds that way. For the purists' terror, a flgr should be used since the gi part wi not stay aligned. Almost tempting to do, but I'd rather work on my marksmanship with that ammo.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
quote:
"Here is an example where the recoil (opposite reaction to the bullet being discharged) exceeded the design parameters of the pistol. No problem there. The excessive slide velocity is caused by the recoil energy of the round pushing on the slide"
It's not the velocity of the slide that damages the it. It's the tensile stresses imposed on the thin section of the slide at the port from the bullet being driven through the barrel under friction, and the slide pulling the barrel backward with it under resistance from that friction. It stretches revolver topstraps...and it stretches slides, too. The cracks that appear form most often in the top right side of the port, just a little forward of the breechface and adjacent to the small cartridge guide blocks on the underside...where a sharp corner is formed during machining. The other place...seen less often, but still seen occasionally...is at the top left side of the port, adjacent to the first lug wall.
More rarely, but still seen, is a crack adjacent to the breechface itself. These cracks are seen much more frequently in older, unhardened slides produced prior to 1946. I've busted a good many USGI slides in these places, but most recently on a high-count modern beater that I messed up when reloading a small lot to shoot on a range trip.
I'd been loading the rare lot of .357 Magnum with Unique, and used a Little Dandy rotor that dropped 7.2 grains. I left it set up, and...as was my usual habit when the time came to load some .45 ammo...I dumped Unique into the hopper that with a rotor that usually dropped 6 grains and loaded up.
I immediately noticed the stinging recoil, but kept shooting because I figured that my hands were just tender from having shot a hundred rounds of .41 Magnum. About the fifth magazine, I noticed that I was getting hit in the face with powder residue...and knew exactly what it meant. When I looked at the suspect spot on the slide, the crack was about a quarter-inch long. Every time I pulled the trigger, the crack opened up and allowed the particles to be blown back in my face. I leave that slide on my reloading bench as a reminder to double-check my hopper setup.
Quote 2.
"Recoil and slide velocity are managed in several ways as discussed throughout the thread. But to dismiss the recoil spring as being unnecessary factor, I think is frivolous."
Nobody said that it's an unnecessary factor. Everything is something. I said that the spring's primary reason for being there is to return the slide to battery. It's a bolt return spring first, and a slide decelerator only as a result of being compressed. But, you can shoot a couple thousand rounds without the spring if you don't mind putting the slide in battery manually every time you want to fire again. Just be sure that it's full in battery. There's another function for the recoil spring. Making sure that the slide doesn't back up and come out of battery.
Impact damage is cumulative. a thousand rounds with no spring probably couldn't approach the cumulative impact damage done by 50,000 rounds with a recoil spring...and there are people who shoot that many through their guns every year...for several years. They may replace the barrels or even the slides occasionally...but they use the same frames.
The bulk of the slide's velocity and hence its impact energy and momentum is used up before the spring really has an opportunity to affect it. This is another reason that straight blowback pistols use such a strong spring. The only things that decelerates the slide and limits its rearward acceleration and momentum are the action spring...the hammer spring, if applicable...and the slide's mass itself.
"Here is an example where the recoil (opposite reaction to the bullet being discharged) exceeded the design parameters of the pistol. No problem there. The excessive slide velocity is caused by the recoil energy of the round pushing on the slide"
It's not the velocity of the slide that damages the it. It's the tensile stresses imposed on the thin section of the slide at the port from the bullet being driven through the barrel under friction, and the slide pulling the barrel backward with it under resistance from that friction. It stretches revolver topstraps...and it stretches slides, too. The cracks that appear form most often in the top right side of the port, just a little forward of the breechface and adjacent to the small cartridge guide blocks on the underside...where a sharp corner is formed during machining. The other place...seen less often, but still seen occasionally...is at the top left side of the port, adjacent to the first lug wall.
More rarely, but still seen, is a crack adjacent to the breechface itself. These cracks are seen much more frequently in older, unhardened slides produced prior to 1946. I've busted a good many USGI slides in these places, but most recently on a high-count modern beater that I messed up when reloading a small lot to shoot on a range trip.
I'd been loading the rare lot of .357 Magnum with Unique, and used a Little Dandy rotor that dropped 7.2 grains. I left it set up, and...as was my usual habit when the time came to load some .45 ammo...I dumped Unique into the hopper that with a rotor that usually dropped 6 grains and loaded up.
I immediately noticed the stinging recoil, but kept shooting because I figured that my hands were just tender from having shot a hundred rounds of .41 Magnum. About the fifth magazine, I noticed that I was getting hit in the face with powder residue...and knew exactly what it meant. When I looked at the suspect spot on the slide, the crack was about a quarter-inch long. Every time I pulled the trigger, the crack opened up and allowed the particles to be blown back in my face. I leave that slide on my reloading bench as a reminder to double-check my hopper setup.
Quote 2.
"Recoil and slide velocity are managed in several ways as discussed throughout the thread. But to dismiss the recoil spring as being unnecessary factor, I think is frivolous."
Nobody said that it's an unnecessary factor. Everything is something. I said that the spring's primary reason for being there is to return the slide to battery. It's a bolt return spring first, and a slide decelerator only as a result of being compressed. But, you can shoot a couple thousand rounds without the spring if you don't mind putting the slide in battery manually every time you want to fire again. Just be sure that it's full in battery. There's another function for the recoil spring. Making sure that the slide doesn't back up and come out of battery.
Impact damage is cumulative. a thousand rounds with no spring probably couldn't approach the cumulative impact damage done by 50,000 rounds with a recoil spring...and there are people who shoot that many through their guns every year...for several years. They may replace the barrels or even the slides occasionally...but they use the same frames.
The bulk of the slide's velocity and hence its impact energy and momentum is used up before the spring really has an opportunity to affect it. This is another reason that straight blowback pistols use such a strong spring. The only things that decelerates the slide and limits its rearward acceleration and momentum are the action spring...the hammer spring, if applicable...and the slide's mass itself.
HisSoldier
Member
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Yeah, haven't seen it in JMB designs but the Colt Mustang, yep. Spring all bent up from something. I'd assume a good design would preclude spring bind.
But the total compressed length of a flat wire spring is, I believe, significantly shorter than the OEM round wire spring compressed.
Magnumite
Member
Okay, good lesson. But now a querie. The cracks you mentioned good info and thank you. What of the beaten impact surface on the frame where the guide rod flange seats, is that recoil battering?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Magnumite...I've never seen a damaged impact abutment unless there was something wrong with the frame...usually the result of the abutment being machined cattywampus.
Even old, soft USGI frames with nurmerous rebuilds haven't shown any level of peening that would warrant attention.
I have seen it in cheap cast frames, and in guns with (also cheap) undersized recoil guide rod flanges that didn't get full support from the abutment...but as long as everything is within spec...there just isn't anything to be concerned with.
I hear these dire warnings about frame damage with underpowered or worn recoil springs and/or the use of shock buffers...but I simply haven't seen it unless something is wrong, and in those, it shows up early...usually within a couple hundred rounds.
HisSoldier...the flat spring may be engineered to compress more than a coventional spring. The length of the installed spring is limited by the space in the system when at its limit of travel at both ends of the scale. At full slide travel rearward, the slide is stopped by the impact abutment, and the length of the spring is determined by that...not the shape of the wire or the number of coils.
The length of the spring when the coils are all touching is dictated by the number of coils and the diameter or thickness of the wire.
Example:
.050 wire and 30 coils gives you a 1.5 inch length with the coils touching. If the space available is less than 1.5 inches, the spring is in coil bind and the slide is stopped by the spring instead of the impact abutments. If the space is more than 1.5 inches...even if only a tiny amount...the spring isn't bound and the slide is stopped by the abutments.
But there's another question:
If the spring compresses to the point that the space between coils is too small...beyond its stress limit....the spring will start to collapse and lose strength early on. If the spring is engineered to allow for a very tight space, then it'll be fine.
Even old, soft USGI frames with nurmerous rebuilds haven't shown any level of peening that would warrant attention.
I have seen it in cheap cast frames, and in guns with (also cheap) undersized recoil guide rod flanges that didn't get full support from the abutment...but as long as everything is within spec...there just isn't anything to be concerned with.
I hear these dire warnings about frame damage with underpowered or worn recoil springs and/or the use of shock buffers...but I simply haven't seen it unless something is wrong, and in those, it shows up early...usually within a couple hundred rounds.
HisSoldier...the flat spring may be engineered to compress more than a coventional spring. The length of the installed spring is limited by the space in the system when at its limit of travel at both ends of the scale. At full slide travel rearward, the slide is stopped by the impact abutment, and the length of the spring is determined by that...not the shape of the wire or the number of coils.
The length of the spring when the coils are all touching is dictated by the number of coils and the diameter or thickness of the wire.
Example:
.050 wire and 30 coils gives you a 1.5 inch length with the coils touching. If the space available is less than 1.5 inches, the spring is in coil bind and the slide is stopped by the spring instead of the impact abutments. If the space is more than 1.5 inches...even if only a tiny amount...the spring isn't bound and the slide is stopped by the abutments.
But there's another question:
If the spring compresses to the point that the space between coils is too small...beyond its stress limit....the spring will start to collapse and lose strength early on. If the spring is engineered to allow for a very tight space, then it'll be fine.
saltydog452
Member
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Thanks Tuner
It was fun.
Good to see you again. Typing fingers wore out yet?
salty
It was fun.
Good to see you again. Typing fingers wore out yet?
salty
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Arthur makes typin' harder and harder, Jerry...but I try to stay in the fray for as long as it lasts.
Red Cent
Member
I'll bring the brownies.
Magnumite
Member
For the record, this pistol was a old Argentine Sistema, some of the first ones around. It had matching barrel, slide and frame serial numbered together. It was actually well fitted when produced. So it was sound design and fit.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Argentine Colts...Sistemas...were made with Colt's machinery by Colt's blueprints...starting in 1927. The frames and slides were dead soft...and by that I don't mean butter soft. I mean that the steel is in its natural state, and not heat-treated. Because you're dealing with an unknown history, it's possible to get some impact abutment deformation in guns that have been fired a lot.
Post war Sistemas were also upgraded with better steels, and heat treated accordingly. On the subject of durability, an Argentine built in 1957 was a better pistol than one built in 1927.
The older slides are prone to cracking from recoil stresses, but they didn't always do it even with a high round count. Several things can factor in, the most important one being how sharp the corners are in the areas described. The sharper the corner...the greater the chances of a crack forming. With most of them, the lugs deformed before the slides cracked, creating excessive headspace and rendering the slide unserviceable before they cracked. The slide may have been replaced at some point, along with a matching serial number to prevent mixing it up with other guns when they went to the armorer for routine inspection and parts replacement.
Post war Sistemas were also upgraded with better steels, and heat treated accordingly. On the subject of durability, an Argentine built in 1957 was a better pistol than one built in 1927.
The older slides are prone to cracking from recoil stresses, but they didn't always do it even with a high round count. Several things can factor in, the most important one being how sharp the corners are in the areas described. The sharper the corner...the greater the chances of a crack forming. With most of them, the lugs deformed before the slides cracked, creating excessive headspace and rendering the slide unserviceable before they cracked. The slide may have been replaced at some point, along with a matching serial number to prevent mixing it up with other guns when they went to the armorer for routine inspection and parts replacement.
JohnBT
Member
I thought you heat treated the steel after you machined or worked it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Doesn't matter what steels were imported. Even modern 4340 doesn't test at much more than about 28Rc without being hardened. The finest steels of the day were likely 3000 series steels that didn't lend themselves to heat treating without warpage in thin cross-sections.
Impact abutment deformation is something that will happen. Nobody said that it can't or won't. You can turn a block of tool steel into sheet metal with a tack hammer if you stay at it long enough.
It's just that I've never seen the level of battering that the shock buff chicken littles claim is imminent unless we use this or that product and we change springs every X number of rounds. It's simply not there.
Impact abutment deformation is something that will happen. Nobody said that it can't or won't. You can turn a block of tool steel into sheet metal with a tack hammer if you stay at it long enough.
It's just that I've never seen the level of battering that the shock buff chicken littles claim is imminent unless we use this or that product and we change springs every X number of rounds. It's simply not there.
USSR
Member
A very interesting thread. Here is my situation: Series 70 Gold Cup, bought 2 IMSI springs; one a 14# and the other a 16#. With the 14# spring installed, the slide does not fully return to battery. With the 16# spring, all is fine. No real problem here as I simply use the 16# spring, but I am curious as to what is going on here. Thanks.
Don
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Maybe it'stime to look at this question from a little different perspective.
It's generally recognized and accepted that shortened variant pistols are equipped with heavier recoil springs. The shorter and less massive the slide...the heavier the spring.
Why?
It can't be about impact. Momemtums are theoretically equal. I say theoretically because momentums are only equal absent outside force or in the presence of equal outside force...but for this point, they're close enough to call them equal.
Impact energy will be the same with a faster but less massive slide as with a slower, more massive slide. So impact doesn't enter into it.
Why do the lower mass slides require heavier springs?
The simple answer is feeding and returning to battery requires that the slide be accelerated forward to a high enough velocity to have the necessary momentum to reliably accomplish that. The same resistive forces are present in the smaller gun, and it has a shorter runup from the impact abutment to the magazine, giving the spring less time to accelerate the slide before hitting the outside, resistive forces.
The purpose of the spring is feeding and returning to battery. All else is incidental.
It's generally recognized and accepted that shortened variant pistols are equipped with heavier recoil springs. The shorter and less massive the slide...the heavier the spring.
Why?
It can't be about impact. Momemtums are theoretically equal. I say theoretically because momentums are only equal absent outside force or in the presence of equal outside force...but for this point, they're close enough to call them equal.
Impact energy will be the same with a faster but less massive slide as with a slower, more massive slide. So impact doesn't enter into it.
Why do the lower mass slides require heavier springs?
The simple answer is feeding and returning to battery requires that the slide be accelerated forward to a high enough velocity to have the necessary momentum to reliably accomplish that. The same resistive forces are present in the smaller gun, and it has a shorter runup from the impact abutment to the magazine, giving the spring less time to accelerate the slide before hitting the outside, resistive forces.
The purpose of the spring is feeding and returning to battery. All else is incidental.
rickcressler
Member
I have a SA 1911 I bought in 1988 (I think. Was when they brought out the first "enhanced" 1911, and I got it from a local gunsmith that had a parkerized one that noone was interested in.) I shot HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of rounds out of it and they were all warm cuz thats the way she liked em! (IPSC power factor of 270 with 225 gr TC bullets and 240 pwr factor with my 160 gr swc)
I ran a 24 lb wolff spring in it and NEVER had problems. I found I was faster wiht the light bullets and quick "snap" the heavier spring gave me. When it had maybe 10,000 rds through under that spring, I shoved a shock buff in it to push the spring a little bit (No other real benefit I ever found) but it shot just as good without it.
The thing to remember, is to play with them and see what they do. My wife couldn't get anything to cycle, but I've been told I'm kind of a gorilla when I grip a pistol and it worked EVERY time once I got it tuned up. Finding brass was a different story. That was an ejector issue though, and it kicked brass about 3 feet to the right and about 15 feet back! lol!
I ran a 24 lb wolff spring in it and NEVER had problems. I found I was faster wiht the light bullets and quick "snap" the heavier spring gave me. When it had maybe 10,000 rds through under that spring, I shoved a shock buff in it to push the spring a little bit (No other real benefit I ever found) but it shot just as good without it.
The thing to remember, is to play with them and see what they do. My wife couldn't get anything to cycle, but I've been told I'm kind of a gorilla when I grip a pistol and it worked EVERY time once I got it tuned up. Finding brass was a different story. That was an ejector issue though, and it kicked brass about 3 feet to the right and about 15 feet back! lol!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I shot HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of rounds (IPSC power factor of 270 with 225 gr TC bullets.
JohnBT
Member
Hey, when I was a kid I got a 1965 VW bug going backwards on a slightly icy road at 70 mph. I didn't even know a bug would go that fast backwards downhill. Or forwards.
I got it stopped on a dry spot with the rear bumper about 12 feet from a phone pole.
The point being, sometimes things just work out. I wasn't drunk, so obviously I was foolish and God was watching out for me.
I got it stopped on a dry spot with the rear bumper about 12 feet from a phone pole.
The point being, sometimes things just work out. I wasn't drunk, so obviously I was foolish and God was watching out for me.
1911Tuner, as this thread is quite long I've lost track of what you're saying the recoil spring's role is in preventing the slide from battering the frame. If you're saying the recoil spring has nothing to do with "protecting" the gun from excessive slamming, let me recount the following experience to you. If you are not saying that, then either disregard or read on because retired people have lots of free time.
I had a SW 4506 (NOT a 1911, its a SA/DA, stainless frame .45) that started to develop small cracks in the frame rails, all the way in the front. I unfortunately don't have a picture. I sent the gun to SW (excellent customer service back then, BTW) and they replaced the frame and installed a new recoil spring and they included a note with the gun that said something to the effect of "We gave you an uprated recoil spring. If you're gonna shoot hot loads out of your gun, make sure you use an uprated spring". Now, I did shoot all reloads out of that gun (I never told them that), and I used to load my rounds near the maximum recommended loads (I was young). This replacement spring was noticeably stiffer than the old spring, and it definitely took more effort to cycle the slide.
The whole experience seemed to imply that hot loads needed a stiffer spring to protect the frame from being battered excessively by the slide. Now granted, it wasn't a 1911. But don't the same principles still apply?
I had a SW 4506 (NOT a 1911, its a SA/DA, stainless frame .45) that started to develop small cracks in the frame rails, all the way in the front. I unfortunately don't have a picture. I sent the gun to SW (excellent customer service back then, BTW) and they replaced the frame and installed a new recoil spring and they included a note with the gun that said something to the effect of "We gave you an uprated recoil spring. If you're gonna shoot hot loads out of your gun, make sure you use an uprated spring". Now, I did shoot all reloads out of that gun (I never told them that), and I used to load my rounds near the maximum recommended loads (I was young). This replacement spring was noticeably stiffer than the old spring, and it definitely took more effort to cycle the slide.
The whole experience seemed to imply that hot loads needed a stiffer spring to protect the frame from being battered excessively by the slide. Now granted, it wasn't a 1911. But don't the same principles still apply?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
0to60...The crack in the frame rails comes from:
A. Sharp corners that create stress risers in the thin tunnel cross-section, and:
B. Flexing of the spring tunnel...it vibrates not unlike a tuning fork...and the front of the tunnel contacts the slide rail. With sufficient clearance between the tunnel and the slide rail, the cracks don't form. On the frames that they do show up on, they're self-limiting and only travel for a short distance. I've got several pistols with those cracks, and they've been there for years and for tens of thousands of rounds. If impact was the sole cause, the cracks would continue to travel until the spring tunnel fell off.
A. Sharp corners that create stress risers in the thin tunnel cross-section, and:
B. Flexing of the spring tunnel...it vibrates not unlike a tuning fork...and the front of the tunnel contacts the slide rail. With sufficient clearance between the tunnel and the slide rail, the cracks don't form. On the frames that they do show up on, they're self-limiting and only travel for a short distance. I've got several pistols with those cracks, and they've been there for years and for tens of thousands of rounds. If impact was the sole cause, the cracks would continue to travel until the spring tunnel fell off.
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