Let's talk bear guns for a moment

[Hanzo581]

The only time I've ever really fired under stress occurred many years ago while I was in southeast Georgia. I had been fishing with two companions and was about ready to wrap it up. We were fishing in a creek in the piney woods area. It was near dusk. I was carrying a Colt Frontier Scout .22 Single Action.

I saw a half sheet of plywood floating down the creek toward me, and coiled up on the plywood was a pretty fair sized cottonmouth. I drew that little Colt and fired one shot, not quite completely severing its head. Just as I fired, a second cottonmouth fell off the undercut bank to my right, maybe five or six feet away. I killed it with a second shot, just as a third slithered between my feet heading for the water. My third shot blew its head off and stuck the neck into the hole the .22 bullet had made. I have no idea the time, but the three shots were fired very rapidly.

Bob Wright

You should probably be an exhibition shooter.

 

[dickydalton]

Why not? Let's be real here. Virtually all bear attacks involve 150-250 lb black bear. Black bear do get bigger, 400-600 lbs are not unheard of, but they don't get that big by hanging around humans. The problem bears are almost always juvenile bear that have recently been run off by mom and are struggling to find food on their own. Any handgun that you'd use to stop an adult male human would be sufficient for most bear defense.

A G29 is my preferred handgun. It is almost 2" shorter and a pound lighter than my 4" 629 and holds either 11 or 16 rounds.

The 44 LOOKS a lot better on paper. But those ballistics are from an 8" test barrel. In the real world from a 4" barrel 240 gr bullets struggle to get 1100 fps, not the advertised 1500 fps they get from an 8" barrel. I get 1250-1300 fps with 200 gr hardcast from the 10mm. There would be virtually no difference in penetration on a really big bear and my money is on the 10mm for the win.

If you don't want a semi-auto that is fine. But a semi with good ammo is more than adequate power wise and a lot easier to carry. Between the Ruger and Smith 44's I'd take the Smith and forget the nuclear loads.

Photo of my G29 alongside my Smith 629View attachment 237308

I have no trouble getting 1400 FPS out of my Mountain Revolver with 240 grain Remington Core Loct bullets. Use 2400 powder.

 

[MaxP]

It would take hours of practice for me to shoot my SBH as accurately fast as my 629. Why should I?

I honestly don't know why you guys are working so hard to make this point. If SA guns were faster and better for most people they never would have been eclipsed by DA guns.

That SA video doesn't give me any reason to abandon a gun I already shoot well.

The point is that many dismiss outright the viability of the single-action option because they believe it cannot be shot as quickly as a double-actionb revolver and that simply isn't true. Try shooting your 629 with some meaningful 300 + grain loads fast, and time it. I don't understand why double-action-only folks try so hard to make the point that single-actions are slower. It cuts both ways.

As a side note, how many shots do you really think you will get on a dedicated charge? Capacity is irrelevant IMHO.

 

[gotboostvr]

I used to practice with SA's ALOT. Even more than my DA's. I previously sold my SA's and let that skillset atrophy.

They can be run fast in the right hands.

I recently picked up a Blackhawk (with the sweetest factory trigger) and am looking to bring my proficiency back up. I doubt I'll ever be where I once was, or better than my DA's but I feel that it won't take long to trust myself to them again.

 

[Elkins45]

The point is that many dismiss outright the viability of the single-action option because they believe it cannot be shot as quickly as a double-actionb revolver and that simply isn't true. Try shooting your 629 with some meaningful 300 + grain loads fast, and time it. I don't understand why double-action-only folks try so hard to make the point that single-actions are slower. It cuts both ways.

As a side note, how many shots do you really think you will get on a dedicated charge? Capacity is irrelevant IMHO.

I certainly don't dismiss it, but it's not a skill I choose to develop because I have another option I prefer. To each his own.

To answer your second question, I expect to empty the thing in a dedicated charge. Even if a 200 pound bear is on top of me I'm probably still strong enough to make muzzle contact with it and give it the whole cylinder full. I've not been part of the capacity argument (because a 15 shot G20 will almost certainly not have room for the slide to move once contact is made) but unless Mr. Bear shreds the tendons in both arms he's getting all six rounds and a face full of pepper.

They can be run fast in the right hands.

Those aren't my hands.

 

[Duster340]

I carried my 4" 629 stoked with 300 grain hardcast SWCs while hiking in Yellowstone with the family. My wife and I had bear spray as well. Felt pretty comfortable/safe in the unlikely event we encountered a bear....... Until we actually spotted a large male grizzly about 75yrds away! We were 1st shocked by the sheer size of this beast, then how insignificant our "defense/protection" felt! Fortunately the big fella wanted nothing to do with us and took his sweet time strolling along. We were blessed to see such a beautiful animal. And while we enjoyed two weeks exploring the park, I will admit that while the 629 was on my hip the whole time, I would probably grab the pepper spray if I ever came across another bear. Like a few previous members posted, IMO, a big bore rifle or 12ga w slugs are the true bear guns.

Be well all and happy independence day @

 

[red rick]

I agree Duster , not being able to carry a long gun , I would like to have another option if the spray doesn't work , even if it is a small chance .

I remember the first time I saw a live tiger up close ( in a cage ) and how big they are . The thing looked as big as a cow .

 

[MaxP]

I certainly don't dismiss it, but it's not a skill I choose to develop because I have another option I prefer. To each his own.

To answer your second question, I expect to empty the thing in a dedicated charge. Even if a 200 pound bear is on top of me I'm probably still strong enough to make muzzle contact with it and give it the whole cylinder full. I've not been part of the capacity argument (because a 15 shot G20 will almost certainly not have room for the slide to move once contact is made) but unless Mr. Bear shreds the tendons in both arms he's getting all six rounds and a face full of pepper.



Those aren't my hands.

I used to hunt black bear with hounds every year in North Carolina, now not as frequently. A 200 lb black bear will destroy a strong man in short order if it is determined to do so. Here's a little anecdote that is thought provoking. My buddies in NC a few years ago had a black bear treed with two packs of dogs at the base. At some point the bear had decided it had had enough and came down the tree to "sort things out." Keep in mind that roundsmen will typically perform many repairs to their dogs when they aren't injured too badly and take them to the vet when it is beyond their capabilities. The bear outright killed two of the dogs and sent thirteen to the vet. It was a 130 lb sow. A man doesn't really stand much of a chance if the bear decides to really press the attack although obviously one should fight. That said, you will bob ably not get the chance to empty your revolver on a charge.

Gentlemen, Happy Independence Day!

 

[CraigC]

Gimme a break. Jerry Miculek is always the example DA shooters use, yet we never bring up Bob Munden. I'm sure Bryce Towsley would be delighted to know he's being compared to Munden.

...but it's not a skill I choose to develop because I have another option I prefer......Those aren't my hands.

Exactly and no one here is trying to make that decision for YOU but you are imposing your limitations upon others. As I have already said, I've spent a good amount of time with both and a shot timer. I make my choice based on MY skills and preferences and suggest all others do the same. SA's are my preference and my passion and the reason why I own 44 of them, compared to only 16 DA's. Most people just 'perceive' the single action as slow and never bother to develop any skill with them. I work them fast and always have and apparently, I'm not the only one. I have no desire to reverse that course.

I would also hate to know that I had to do as much shooting with the .44Mag out of double actions as I have single actions. I sure as hell don't want to shoot a 440gr .500 at 1350fps out of anything but a Ruger Bisley.

 

[FN in MT]

Bear Spray...properly dispensed...works VERY well. I had it on my hip just yesterday at my cousins in Western MT on his 160 acres. We see black bears frequently, but he has seen GRIZZLIES far more this year. And, all sows with cubs.

I still carry some sort of handgun, but if we are truly "in amongst them" I carry an 870 Rem and 1 oz slugs. Handguns are a folly IMHO with the big bears.

 

[FN in MT]

Big MT grizzly....does a handgun seem appropriate NOW? LOL.

 

[Elkins45]

Gimme a break. Jerry Miculek is always the example DA shooters use, yet we never bring up Bob Munden. I'm sure Bryce Towsley would be delighted to know he's being compared to Munden.



Exactly and no one here is trying to make that decision for YOU but you are imposing your limitations upon others. As I have already said, I've spent a good amount of time with both and a shot timer. I make my choice based on MY skills and preferences and suggest all others do the same. SA's are my preference and my passion and the reason why I own 44 of them, compared to only 16 DA's. Most people just 'perceive' the single action as slow and never bother to develop any skill with them. I work them fast and always have and apparently, I'm not the only one. I have no desire to reverse that course.

I would also hate to know that I had to do as much shooting with the .44Mag out of double actions as I have single actions. I sure as hell don't want to shoot a 440gr .500 at 1350fps out of anything but a Ruger Bisley.

I'm not imposing anything, but I am pointing out that SA is only a good choice for someone like yourself, with a self-described passion for SA guns. DA is a better choice for a regular schmoe like me, and probably the OP as well.

Actually, as others have pointed out, bear spray and a 12 gauge are the better choices.

 

[BobWright]

You should probably be an exhibition shooter.

Many, many, years ago that was my ambition. I spent my hard earned, and rather pitiful, funds on ammunition practicing difficult shots. I could shoot end to end through an empty 12 ga. shotgun shell, through toilet paper or paper towel tubes. I cut strings and playing cards. After getting through basic training in the Army, I had a place where I began to get some practice at aerial targets. Then lost my place to practice when I got transferred. After getting out of the Army I got married, and well, finances got slim. Never was good enough to get a sponsor to furnish me with ammunition. But I gave it a whirl!

Bob Wright

 

[Alte Schule]

My extended family has a good size piece of property in Jeff Davis County, SW Texas. My cousin lives just outside Valentine and keeps up with the place but I manage to get out there four or five times a year and stay for a few days. When I was younger we would see, always at a distance, an occasional cat, but never saw a bear. This changed about six or seven years ago when one of the long time bird hunters we lease too saw a black bear on the south end property line. Since then I've seen two and we have had five or six other sightings just in the last three years. They move off pretty quick if they get a whiff of us or hear our ATV's.
We don't allow our lease hunters to shoot bears or any type of cat but they are welcome to shoot all the deer they have tags for, feral pigs and dove. My cousin will take care of any problem animal if the need arises and will call me or one of my other cousins if he needs help. That being said when I'm down there walking or on the ATV I always carry a S&W Model 25 in 45 LC and rifle. Usually an AR or SKS carbine. My cousin prefers his scoped lever action 30/30 and Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag. My son and grandson come along occasionally and bring their preferred firearms.
We haven't had to shoot a nuisance bear or cat but we don't have any livestock to attract them. We do have problems with poachers and the like so we aware of that.

 

[MCMXI]

I still carry some sort of handgun, but if we are truly "in amongst them" I carry an 870 Rem and 1 oz slugs. Handguns are a folly IMHO with the big bears.

It's one thing to carry a rifle all day with a 99% chance of using it on a deer or elk, but carrying a shotgun all day with a less than 1% chance of using it isn't much fun. I carried an 870 for the better part of two years (sometimes a Marlin 1895 SBL) up here in NW Montana while hiking trails between Blacktail and Flathead and it's a PITA. I then carried a Ruger KLCR .357 Mag on my belt for the next two years that was effortless but not enough gun for a decent sized bear. Now I'm about to start carrying a Ruger .454 Casull/.45 Colt in a chest rig while hiking or hunting . It will be easy to carry all day and I have some confidence in a 340gr .45 cal hardcast moving at 1,200 fps in the 1% chance that I need to use it. If you live in the real world many decisions are about compromise and a big bore revolver and a can of bear spray are just that. Let's hope that this remains purely academic for the majority of us.

 

[CraigC]

I'm not imposing anything, but I am pointing out that SA is only a good choice for someone like yourself, with a self-described passion for SA guns. DA is a better choice for a regular schmoe like me, and probably the OP as well.

Actually, as others have pointed out, bear spray and a 12 gauge are the better choices.

When you make statements as you have in this thread, that's exactly what you are doing. I always stipulate that the best choice depends on the individual's skills and preferences, not mine. You dismiss the single action entirely without any room for personal preference.

I still carry some sort of handgun, but if we are truly "in amongst them" I carry an 870 Rem and 1 oz slugs. Handguns are a folly IMHO with the big bears.

Sorry but it's pure myth that a shotgun with slugs is better than a properly loaded revolver. They are cheap, plentiful and easier to hit with but terminally, they are not more effective. It's myth that has been repeated so many times, people just assume it's true, even in the complete absence of supporting evidence. From the Linebaugh seminars and Dixie's own website to my own testing with SIMTEST, I have NEVER seen a shotgun slug that penetrated anywhere near as well as a good revolver bullet. I'm talking about the Brenneke and Dixie Terminator offerings. Foster slugs are a joke with poorer sectional density than a round ball. Take a hard cast LFN or WFN with a sectional density of .23-.27 and it will often double up on the Black Magic for penetration. A 12ga is nearly 3/4" in diameter which sounds impressive but it just can't carry enough mass relative to its diameter (sectional density) to penetrate very well. Now if you could load that 12ga up with a tough, saboted .50cal 450-525gr bullet, you would have something serious.

 

[Elkins45]

When you make statements as you have in this thread, that's exactly what you are doing. I always stipulate that the best choice depends on the individual's skills and preferences, not mine. You dismiss the single action entirely without any room for personal preference.

I was responding to the OPs question. Don't you think if he had superior skill with a single action he would know it?

 

[FN in MT]

Craig...What have You shot with a 1 oz, 12 ga slug?

I've used them on numerous road/accident injured elk, blk bears, cows, horses and even one bison. YES my heavy for caliber, .44 or .45 cal LBT type slug WILL penetrate like crazy. BUT you have to place it accurately. For most people it's far easier to make an accurate hit with a shotgun/rifle, than a handgun. I've never shot a charging grizzly, but HAVE shot dozens of large animals with regular old, Foster slugs. I have never found them wanting.

 

[gotboostvr]

I hunt with a pistol caliber carbine, but most of the people I hunt with are long time slug-slingers and have been surprised what a 240gr bullet driven at a good speed will penetrate like.

Granted, we're only hunting deer. But our Whitetails here in Ohio get pretty large. Before I broke both front shoulders with a large exit wound, another hunter had claimed to hit a large doe in the shoulder with a 200gr bullet and the doe wandered off.

This was opening day the first season PCC's were legal in Ohio, so it was a bit of a learning curve for alot of people.

After seeing what my ammo did, and how we speculated his performed we had a long talk about sectional density during dinner at camp. Same day tenders, a tradition.

That same load performed well last season punching a hole through the near side ribs, and making a mess of the heart before punching another hole through the far shoulder at 60 yards. He's coming back to the carbine team after going back to his slug gun since he sees there's no great trick.

I'm considering dropping my XTP's I've been using if I could find a cast WFN 240-270gr boolit that shoots as well and is cheaper than the XTP. The only reason I use them is because they're so accurate in my 92' and 629.

 

[Deaf Smith]

When you make statements as you have in this thread, that's exactly what you are doing. I always stipulate that the best choice depends on the individual's skills and preferences, not mine. You dismiss the single action entirely without any room for personal preference.



Sorry but it's pure myth that a shotgun with slugs is better than a properly loaded revolver. They are cheap, plentiful and easier to hit with but terminally, they are not more effective. It's myth that has been repeated so many times, people just assume it's true, even in the complete absence of supporting evidence. From the Linebaugh seminars and Dixie's own website to my own testing with SIMTEST, I have NEVER seen a shotgun slug that penetrated anywhere near as well as a good revolver bullet. I'm talking about the Brenneke and Dixie Terminator offerings. Foster slugs are a joke with poorer sectional density than a round ball. Take a hard cast LFN or WFN with a sectional density of .23-.27 and it will often double up on the Black Magic for penetration. A 12ga is nearly 3/4" in diameter which sounds impressive but it just can't carry enough mass relative to its diameter (sectional density) to penetrate very well. Now if you could load that 12ga up with a tough, saboted .50cal 450-525gr bullet, you would have something serious.

Black Magic Slugs for penetration? Oh, I think they penetrate enough.



BTW, the Brenneke is almost twice as hard as the foster slug. And keep in mind folks, we are talking DEFENSE from bears, not hunting. All ranges will be in measured in feet. Oh, and the national park service rangers shoot problem bears all the time and it is generally with a shotgun.

Dixie slugs make some real HUGE ones!

http://www.dixieslugs.com/home.html

http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Dangerous_Game_Single_Shot.pdf

Deaf

 

[MaxP]

And keep in mind folks, we are talking DEFENSE from bears, not hunting. All ranges will be in measured in feet. Oh, and the national park service rangers shoot problem bears all the time and it is generally with a shotgun.


Deaf

I really get puzzled when this argument is made. I am a handgun hunter exclusively and my desire - no, demand, is a bullet that will track straight and penetrate deeply from virtually any angle. In other words it's ideal for bear defense featuring uncompromising penetration. I think those who don't hunt with handguns may miss this distinction. Loaded properly, they are not giving up much of anything from a terminal standpoint.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I really get puzzled when this argument is made. I am a handgun hunter exclusively and my desire - no, demand, is a bullet that will track straight and penetrate deeply from virtually any angle. In other words it's ideal for bear defense featuring uncompromising penetration. I think those who don't hunt with handguns may miss this distinction. Loaded properly, they are not giving up much of anything from a terminal standpoint.

Puzzled by what? Defense against bears being short range? Shotguns (you know people DO hunt with them to?)

I hope you also understand bears are NOT CAPE BUFFALO. Their skulls are no where near that thick.

There is also a difference between hunting and self-defense. One can take a bear at 100 yards.. that is hunting as there is no danger to oneself. Stopping a charging bear is self-defense and usually is within 10 yards are so (like 30 feet.)

Deaf

 

[MidRoad]

What happened to this thread? All the fella wanted to was input on a few revolvers ,not a bunch of bickering bs.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Well heck, I'm all for revolvers for bear protection. Nothing wrong with them. But when one says shotgun slugs won't do, well I beg to differ.

Deaf

 

[Rexster]

The original-style, pre-Hogue OEM grip for the Ruger GP100 is perfect for my hands, so my, uh, "bear gun" is a Super Redhawk Alaskan, with its squishy Hogue grip, with finger grooves designed for giants, replaced by an old-school GP100 grip. The rare black bears here in SE Texas are small and very shy, so a "bear gun" can be the same thing I carry for dangerous humans and dangerous dogs, such as the GP100, but my wife and I plan to do some serious wildlife/nature photography in the near future, including Montana, Idaho, and the PNW, so when a pre-owned, like-new SRH Alaskan was available locally, at the same time I had some pocket money, I bought it.

Notably, I owned a couple of standard Redhawks, .41 Mag and .45 Colt, in the Eighties, and IIRC, Nineties. My fingers, specifically my trigger fingers, are not really long enough to shoot a Redhawk well double-action, while maintaining a properly-centered grasp. S&W N-Frames present me with this sam problem. While shooting performance may be acceptable, the improper grasp channels recoil into the thumb and wrist joints in a very unhealthy way, and I am paying for this, now, in my mid-fifties, even though I stopped self-inflicting this abuse, mostly done woth N-Frames, in the early Nineties. (I just bought a mini-compensator, and am about to buy a threaded barrel, to try in a G19, because it now hurts to shoot a 9mm compact Glock right-handed. Fortunately, I am functionally ambidextrous with Glocks and revolvers!)

I like single-action sixguns, and Benelli M1 and M2 shotguns, too, but have run out of internettin' time, for this afternoon.