Long gun vs. handgun skills – relative importance

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I would like to initiate a dialogue on the relative importance of long gun skills to handgun skills for protection for those who are neither LE nor military. My training resume is rather short. Most of my supervised training and 95% of my time alone on the range is focused on developing my pistol skills. Realistically, I do not envision many scenarios where a rifle or shotgun would play a role in the protection of myself or others. Some have wet dreams about zombie invasions, Red Dawn scenarios, or unchecked government tyranny. I do not. I am beginning to wonder if I should devote more time to long-gun skills, though. Your take on this may very well be colored by your environment and lifestyle. If this is the case, feel free to discuss this impact.

Let us hear what you think.

BTW, if you are going to reply with “You use your handgun to fight your way back to your rifle”, please explain the realistic application of this to you.
 
Why must you choose between the two... do both!

Currently, I think that he more important skill is handgun, particularly for those that carry. And it's an excellent home defense and travel companion.

However:

History has shown that powerful empires cannot sustain their own growth and politics and ultimately implote and collapse under their own weight and poor mismanagement.

Someone here put together an excellent list of the fall of empires in history. I wish I had that list to support what I'm saying.

I am torn - on the one hand I am optimistic about our future in America. I believe in it.

On the other hand I am pessimistic because of the corruption, greed, mismanagement and general civil unrest.

Whether it's in my lifetime or not though, I do think that the United States has not yet faced it's worst enemies; the crisis of implosion. The primary reasons are oil, economic collapse, silent invasion of anti-freedom ideals, increased violent crime rates, drug trade, corruption, scandal, and a desire to be the world police, and an unmanagable trade and budget deficit. Couple that with the collapse of the environment and in my lifetime I think things will get unmanably poor - to the point that civil unrest will be commonplace.

As a result of the inevitable chaos rifles (over handguns) will rule.
 
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Disclaimer: I have never had to actually shoot another human being.

Having said that, the extremely few (thank God) times the SHTF and I thought I might have to engage were all abrupt/out-of-the-blue situations where the only firearm handy (due to portability/concealability) were handguns.

The times I've used a long gun were all deliberately planned situations (hunts, varmint control, etc).

The comparatively high level of stress in the "pistol" scenarios combined with the inherently more demanding skill set of pistol shooting left me VERY glad that the vast majority of my practice time has been with handguns.

However this is considering that I reside in a urban, non-conflict zone. If I were to live in a place such as the African bushlands or someplace like Baghdad then I might value rifle skills more highly.
 
I'm sure it is equally hard to master either, but it seems like handguns deserve more time than rifles if you carry concealed. I think it might be harder to reach proficient accuracy with a handgun; past that, it seems like many of the skills--strafing, taking cover, retreating, etc--are essentially the same, even if they are at different distances. Obviously there are lots of different types of rifle uses in combat, but I doubt you're going to shoot very long-range defensively...so at ranges of <50yds with a rifle it seems like you wouldn't need as much training if you were good with a pistol already.
 
Concentrate on your primary weapon. Few of us, even those who's training is subsidized by their employer can afford the time and expense involved in training in every discipline.

If you envision a handgun as your primary weapon and see no scenario where you may use a rifle or a shotgun, then devote your resources to becoming as good as possible with your handgun.

I've devoted my training to handguns and rifles as I see a shotgun as a special purpose tool that has limited use for me. I have formal shotgun training (Louis Awerbuck) but I don't devote all that much time on sustainment training with it. For me a shotgun is a breaching tool or a launcher of specialized rounds like gas and OC.

My go to weapon is my Colt LE6920 LE Carbine, but since you can't realistically carry one everywhere (and having spent enough time in the Infantry to know what a pain it is carrying a long gun everywhere), I also devote a lot of time to the pistol.

I don't think you are neglecting anything by not training with a rifle if one doesn't fit into your lifestyle. Few private citizens will ever be in a position where they need their handgun. An even smaller number will ever be in the kind of fight where they needed a rifle to solve the problem.

Jeff
 
For sudden close-quarters defense, a pistol is likely the only firearm a civilian (including police) will have at hand.
 
Bottom line is, if the pistol is what you're going to go for when SHTF, practice on it as much as possible.

If my job didn't involve firing rifles, I'd probably spend more of my time developing pistol skills too.
 
I spend well over 99% of my time in cities and suburbs (plus transit) on the East Coast. A rifle is a nifty toy and is good to know how to use, but except for TEOTWAWKI I can't see myself ever using one in anger. A shotgun is almost the same: I can only envision using it for home defense and so, beyond basic proficiency, it's not very useful for me.

Handguns, however, are varied enough in format and difficult enough to use properly that they get nearly all of my time. It's important to know that S&W and Colt cylinders turn opposite ways and that my Mateba fires from 6 o'clock rather than 12. I need to know which cartidges can be used in which gun, including whether +P is okay. I need to know whether a revolver is single- or double-action. I need to know that some revolvers are chambered for rimless ammo, and that others can often be made to use them with conversion cylinders or moon clips.

For autoloaders, I need to know whether they're single-action, double-action, or DAO. I need to know how to field-strip and reassemble them (and whether special tools will be needed). I need to make sure that, whatever it says on the slide, the barrel (and magazine) are for the caliber I think they are. I need to know how to clear different types of jams. I need to know how to disengage (and re-engage) all manner of safeties, and fast.

I need to know proper grip for different sizes and makes of handgun, from Mini-Revolver and P-3AT to X-frame and full-sized USP (or Mk 23).

If you have a rifle, you've generally chosen it ahead of time. For handguns, I may have a P-3AT one day and a 1911 the next depending on what I'm wearing. I need to know, on the fly, how to use it.
 
Please recall, the most common defensive gun use (DGU) is the display of the gun. About 95% of all DGUs end with no shot being fired. In “peaceful” times, those uses occur about 50% in the home. Other posters have observed, and I agree, that we are most likely to encounter situations outside the home with a handgun, and inside the home is a matter of personal choice and/or availability. In trying to recall DGUs during “non-peaceful” times, what comes to mind are riots (LA) and roving bands of opportunistic thugs after natural disasters (NOLA). The images I have of dealing with these later threats are groups of neighbors standing guard with shotguns and rifles. Perhaps those images are merely the product of “all the news that’s fit to sound-bite”, but I also suspect that the DGU of being visible with a long gun at several hundred yards dissuades almost everyone who was considering behaving badly.

I don’t know how one trains to look like a friendly, but menacing, good neighbor with a shotgun. If you can hit your target with a handgun, presumably you can do even better with a rifle, but I can not recall an incident since the Texas Tower Massacre where “citizens” actually had a DGU rifle fired outside the home. (Surely it must have happened, but it must be very rare.)
-BothellBob
 
If you think that your rifle skills are a little rusty, then it can't hurt to brush up on them. Who knows what will happen in the future. It's best to know how to use all the tools that you have proficiently so that if your life did depend on it, you would be ready.

Realistically, it is better to do most of your training on a handgun, but shooting rifles once in a while should also be thrown in there. Besides, shooting big guns is fun. :)
 
Pratice with both equally, maybe the one which you use more get better range time in for it, Maybe you carry a pistol around 14 hours of the day so its a no-brainer to get more skill with that perticular sidearm, since most people dont have to carry around a long gun all day.
 
Only twice have I felt the need to actively* pick up a firearm for self defense. Both times it turned out to be a drunken frat-er tryin to find his house, who mistook my place for his place and try'd to get in. Both times I went to the locker and grabbed a rifle, even though the pistol was closer and already loaded.


*actively meaning the possible need to use it immediately. I have my CPL and carry regularly
 
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The mission of the handgun is to protect against unexpected attack.

Larry Mudgett



The handgun is what we carry. If we know we are going to be attacked then we will arrange to be elsewhere. If there is some compelling reason that we must go where we will be attacked, then we bring a rifle or a shot gun.

So how does this translate to being attacked in the home? In a surprise attack in the home we use the nearest weapon. For most of us it is a handgun. However, if it is convenient and safe to access, a long arm will do a much better job of stopping bad guys. The question of clearing a house with a long arm comes up all the time. Very simply, we do not clear houses unless absolutely necessary. What we do is take up a strong position in the safest room possible with our families behind us.

Which skills are more important? They are all important. Handgun skills probably edge out long gun skills only because the handgun is what is usually the nearest in a time of need. But when going to the range it is easy enough to take the rifle or shotgun.

BTW, proficiency with a handgun is mutually exclusive of proficiency with the rifle or shotgun. Each has it's peculiar manual of arms. Each needs to be understood and practiced to be employed correctly.
 
My 7.62X51 battle rifle is practiced with about 5% of the time and the other 95% is dedicated to my pistol drills. Reason being that 95% of the time I don't have the rifle with me and you gotta dance with who ya brung. For rural home defense ( I live way out in the boonies ) a long range magnum with a good scope may be justified if only to make a distant trespasser "di di mau" but for serious defense work even in my mountains a five hundred yard shot is a long one and my 7.62X51 will group in under six inches at that range if I do my part.
 
BTW, proficiency with a handgun is mutually exclusive of proficiency with the rifle or shotgun.
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I don't know that I'd say "mutually exclusive" since many of the same principles apply, but the manual of arms is different for each. As far as practice, I tend to gravitate to the "become equally proficient with each" camp. Think about it. If you practice 95% of the time with your handgun and the other 5% with your rifle and shotgun, then when you really do have to rely on your skills with the rifle or shotgun, you're not as familiar and comfortable with them as with your handgun. A firefight is a bad place to try and learn new lessons or remember half-learned ones.

I practice about 50/50 with rifle and shotgun drills vs. handgun drills, for the same reason that I practice more with my weak hand than with my strong hand on the handgun. Dry fire practice, reloading drills, and malfunction drills are cheap. I even have snap caps for my AR and my shotgun so I can practice them realistically. It's important to get competent instruction with each first so you know what and how to practice, but practice you must. I'm as comfortable grabbing a shotgun or a rifle as I am in grabbing a handgun, depending on the tool I need for the job and what is at hand. Granted, I'll have the handgun available to me more often, but if I do have to grab the rifle, I want it to be an old friend that I can rely on because if I need it, I figure I really need it.

Just my two cents' worth.
 
BTW, proficiency with a handgun is mutually exclusive of proficiency with the rifle or shotgun.

I disagree. So do a lot of other folks I know who are more proficient with both long arms and handguns than the average bear. There is far more difference in the use of a rifle vs. a shotgun than handgun vs. longarm.

I personally spend the majority of my time with a handgun now, so my training and range time concentrates on the pistol. By majority, I mean that I CCW and don't tote a rifle on a daily basis anymore. I do keep an AR handy for things that go bump in the night, but its use is nearly second nature. Ditto the shotgun, but I shoot it more than the AR since I'm not as up to speed with it as I am the 1911 or AR-15.

My advice, worth everything you're paying to get it (or not paying, actually), is to set goals for yourself in speed, accuracy and handling of the weapon you deem most likely to be your front line. When those goals are met, move on to another platform. For me, the primary is now a handgun, the rifle is second, the shotgun third. My primary use for a shotgun is hunting, so it's not real high on the ladder for "Aww, crap!" use. Your priorities may differ based on experience and situation.
 
Re: HG vs. LA Proficiency

Some people feel there is more transfer between handgun and rifle. Others feel that the handgun and shotgun are closer to one another. It isn't worth arguing about. What is worth arguing about is dedicating the time to become proficient with each system. The resources available and day to day habits should dictate which weapon choices. Those choices dictate the amount of time spent practicing with each system. It should be obvious that if the shotgun is the weapon of choice for home defense for someone who rarely ventures away from home or into high risk situations that most of the practice time available should be devoted to that system.

There are similarities between systems, to be sure. But the differences are what matter. It breaks down to large and small muscle groups. The similarities are small muscle and sighting (eyes) usage. Trigger control and sighting skills transfer between handguns and long arms. Use of large muscles groups are different. Drawing-reholstering/slinging-unslinging, coming to ready/mounting, sight radii, etc. are different. This is where practice is of critical importance. In a self defense situation, when the heart is racing and adrenaline is dumping into the system, the first thing to go will be fine motor control. It will be the familiarity with the large muscle movements that will carry the day.
 
I find that rifle proficiency out to around 100 yards comes easier than handgun proficiency out to 25 yards. Rifles are designed to shoot accurately, handguns are designed to work well from a carry and your (hopefully) steady hands.
 
I find that rifle proficiency out to around 100 yards comes easier than handgun proficiency out to 25 yards. Rifles are designed to shoot accurately, handguns are designed to work well from a carry and your (hopefully) steady hands.
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Exactly.

Handguns are incredibly more difficult to master than long guns. They are also incredibly less powerfull. For a civilian, they are faaar more likely to be used in self defense than a long gun, and even more so if you are contemplating scenarios that take place out side of your residence. I think that common sense dictates you should practice more with your (carry) handgun than with your long guns. For a handgun to be as effective as a long gun (if that is at all possible), you have to be alot more proficient with it. If average skill is enough to deploy a shotgun effectively, then expert skill is what you will be looking for to achieve the same results with a pistol.

How to divide your time and expenses? 75% pistol, 25% shotgun? 90% revolver, 10% rifle? I don't think anyone can answer that for you, you have to figure that out on your own, taking into account your specific needs, proficiencies and individual idiosincracies...
 
Here in Tennessee we are not legally permitted to carry a loaded firearm out in public, unless we conceal it and register both the firearm and ourselves with the government, pay a sizeable deposit, and wait for their blessing and approval.

Given that, plus the fact that as JW said my go-to firearm in the house is a Bushmaster AR, and the fact that long arms are much more effective, accurate, and powerful than pistols, I practice almost exclusively with rifles. I dont ever do anything with a shotgun that I need to practice for, and I dont practice much with handgun.
 
I think it is a lot easier to become proficient with a rifle than it is a pistol.. it follows that more time should be spent with pistols. I still shoot about 50/50 though, I enjoy shooting my rifle more than I enjoy shooting my pistol.. pistol shooting is "practice" rifle shooting is "plinking".

BTW, if you are going to reply with “You use your handgun to fight your way back to your rifle”, please explain the realistic application of this to you.
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I used to say this.. I kept an AR in my trunk and a shotty in the house. I quit keeping my AR in my car though, too concerned that it is going to get stolen and the chances of getting to it or needing it would be slim, but I can think of a few examples..

Shooting spree guys> I'd rather run to a rifle than fight someone with an AK w/ my 9mm
In a parking lot (think gas station) see someone going in to rob a place> Pop the trunk!! Use car as cover, if they start shooting people inside, shoot back. (I wouldn't shoot in the first place, shooting into the front of a building with a rifle with ppl inside is a tricky affair)

But these situations would be rare at best.
 
I think anyone that uses a handgun for defence purposes should have profficiency in a rifle.

Your using your pistol, essentially, for survival. Why should you rifle survival skills lack attention?

I'm not saying you need to take a combat rifle class or anything like that, but I think you should have the skills necessary to drop large game/targets from a distance with a rifle. It could be just as important as handgun marksmanship.

I don't think they need to be as in depth as the pistol as pistol defence is usually close, fast and fluid.
 
The only scenario, including those explained above, such as the AK robbery of a gas station (they definitely brought enough gun to that situation), that I could envision is an environment where typical civlized life breaks down. The L.A. riots come to mind, shop-owners kept rioters at bay with their rifles. After Katrina, looters were prevalent and a long gun is the best way to keep them at a distance.

Every day scenarios won't occur where a long gun is likely necessary, but if you consider the fact that the majority of us will never have to draw our concealed handgun in self-defense, much less fire it, I believe that we should train for the less-than-everyday scenarios that could pop up.

For instance, imagine a terrorist attack on a town near where you live (I live in NE Ohio, so let's say Cleveland). I imagine that there'd be a run on the stores for food, water, fuel, etc and that the police would have their hands full helping out in Cleveland rather than maintaining law and order here. In that case, I want a long gun BECAUSE it is visible and easily identified. In addition to providing for my family's safety, I believe that as responsible citizens, there are those of us that will form into modern-day militia companies in order to provide a semblance of law and order in the absence of the police.
 
I have been quiet since the OP, but have read every post and many more than once. I think you guys/gals have addressed about everything that has danced around in my head, and more. As you may have surmised, I am trying to determine how to most efficiently allocate time and money for paid instruction and practice. I think we are dealing w/ probabilities. What is the probability that I could access a rifle or shotgun in a particular situation? How would having a shotgun or rifle affect the probability for survival in a particular situation? These are heavily dependent upon lifestyle and environment.

Yes, I can easily maintain some sort of access to a long gun in the home, but can I access it in seconds if a BG busts through front door suddenly? What about the trade-offs of maintaining long gun access in the home to keeping the weapon secure? Jackdanson mentioned keeping his AR in his car and addressed accessibility and security. He mentioned active shooter scenarios (shooting sprees). What is the probability non-LE would be able to make a positive contribution to an AS scenario using a long gun in a medium– to high-density population area? Is it highly probably that someone with a long gun would simply get shot or arrested upon detection by LE.
 
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