Long gun vs. handgun skills – relative importance

[SAWBONES]

Quote:
I would only add my opinion that there seems to be a mildly-disproportionate current over-emphasis on carbine and "urban rifle" training among the "tactical training" instructors who train civilians, none of which civilian students will ever have any reasonable or conceivable need for such, except possibly for point-blank shotgun use inside their own homes.

That's right, by gum. If you want a military weapon you should join the military. No civilian will ever have a use for a military style carbine. A pump shotgun is all you need. (/sarcasm off)

Where do I get the idea that we're "shooting ourselves in the foot" here? Following the logic of some of the responders here leads us to all sorts of "reasonable" gun control. Let people make up their own minds about what to use or not use. If you're gonna have something to use for HD, you should train with it. If you're gonna carry a firearm for personal defense outside the home, you should train with it. You should be proficient with any firearm you have for either purpose. Then, if you want to own firearms for plinking, hanging on the wall or making your buddies jealous, go for it. It's called freedom of choice.

sacp, I neither said nor implied anything about "gun control." Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder.

 

[Jeff White]

Gentlemen, lets keep things on topic.....

Jeff

 

[sacp81170a]

sacp, I neither said nor implied anything about "gun control." Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder.

Perhaps I've read your statements incorrectly as implying disapproval of "tactical training". When you say "none of which civilian students will ever have any reasonable or conceivable need for such" you're making a pretty definitive statement that, yes, indeed pushes some buttons. It's okay to say that long gun training is something that you're not interested in, quite another to say that there's no conceivable use for it. I apologize if I mistook your meaning, no offense was intended.

I'm betting the reason that we're seeing more training classes being offered for carbines is that there is simply more demand for it. I taught my first introductory AR class a few months ago, not because I was trying to spread the gospel about AR's but because so many people were asking for a class.

I've been happily shooting and training with AR's for about 30 years now. For 20 of those years I almost never heard of anyone teaching AR's outside the military or the big instructional facilities like GunSite and Thunder Ranch. Defensive shotgun courses were in a similar state of affairs. It seems that more people are taking an interest in defensive long gun skills, so by this I judge that those people(the ones coming to classes) are placing more importance on long gun skills than they have in the past.

It's a pretty natural progression, from not being able to CCW to carrying every day to wondering if a pistol is enough gun for every situation. I agree completely with those who say to concentrate on training with your primary weapon to an acceptable level of proficiency. I also agree with those who believe a long gun is the correct tool in some situations. Obtaining the skill to use either proficiently is a function of the time available, finances and above all your personal preferences. The mix of your training should be determined by your personal situation. There's really no right or wrong answer here, there's only the one that fits each individual the best.

To those who say that there's never any situation where a long gun is a better defensive tool than a handgun, I say "never is a pretty long time."

 

[sacp81170a]

For some reason I seem to keep getting double posts.

 

[give]

great posts from all,i see no reason not to be prepared with both,there is a lot to be said about having good shot gun skills

 

[hamourkiller]

Have you paid attention to the Old men in Texas who have taken out young criminals with thier shotguns this past year? Not theory, hard facts.
Old man in Dallas, burglars hit 40+ times, shot 3 attackers in one week, killed two wounded one.
Joe Horn in Pasadena, two burglars, three shots, two dead crooks.
Old man in San Antonio area shoots burglar in car dead, other one runs for the hills.
These were Older men who used the shotgun to effectively defend thier homes and neighbor hoods. Hand guns would not have been as effective. Learn to use long guns and hand guns. Each fills a specific weaponry need and you should get good with all of them if you are serious about defending yourself.
A good combination is a .357 / 41 / 44 mag revolver and carbine. The hollow points out of a carbine have gained at least 500 FPS (1850 FPS) vs the revolver (1350 FPS). This gives you much improved stopping power while letting you have common ammo for rifle and revolver.

 

[Wheeler44]

When I was younger and worked in the bush in Alaska, every morning I had to choose.
a. revolver, fairly quick from a holster, accurate enough for near contact shots, might be powerful enough for any bear I was likely to encounter.
or
b. shotgun, pretty darn quick from a hillbilly sling I rigged up, accurate enough for near contact shots, might be powerful enough for any bear I might encounter.
or
c. Rifle, acceptably quick from an over shoulder sling, accurate enough to kill bear at any distance that I could see, most definitely powerful enough.

I practiced with all of the above because I enjoyed it, immensely.


Nowadays I live in "civilization" so I look at things in a different light. I still practice with all three because I enjoy it, immensely.

I lived in Alaska because my folks ran away there to await TEOTWAWKI.......almost forty years ago. After witnessing the negative effects of that particular sickness (preparing for teotwawki, waiting for teotwawki finally hoping for teotwawki) I realize that teotwawki is really the "beginning of the world as we make it" so instead of preparing, waiting and hoping for it I just practice with all three because I enjoy it, immensely.

In the highly unlikely event that I will ever discharge any firearm in self defense or anger I observe this very simple rule.

Handguns are great for personal defense.

Shotguns are great for home defense.

Rifles are great for National defense.

I practice with all of the above because I enjoy it, immensely.

 

[sacp81170a]

Another thought as to why more "urban rifle" and "defensive shotgun" courses are being taught: the decline in the hunting sports. When I was a kid, going shotgunning for quail or rabbits was part of every fall hunting season. Likewise a much higher percentage of the population hit the deer woods every fall. Duck hunting, goose hunting, etc., all taught absolutely fantastic lessons about shooting things on the move, stealth, patience, well, just about everything you need in a "real" situation. Most of the old guys I hunted with would have laughed at someone teaching the stuff we teach nowadays in a patrol rifle class. They grew up making offhand shots at fast moving targets that popped up by surprise.

If you want some real training, go try to hit a quail with a 20 gauge when a covey of 15 or 20 explodes from beneath your feet. The first time it happened to me I couldn't make up my mind what to shoot. The blood was pumping, the nerves were jangled and I missed clean. I learned to pick out the one I wanted and take the shot while the explosion of feathers was going on around around me. Other than some details on how to use cover effectively and some force on force training, there's nothing better for teaching you how to keep your cool and shoot.

Anyway, that's my take on why long gun skills aren't as common as they used to be. hamourkiller's comments on old guys using their shotguns to defend themselves and their neighborhoods made me think of this. Have fun, train hard and enjoy your freedom...