The most important physical skill for CCW is... grappling?

[Goosey]

"Do you know what the single most important physical skill is when it comes to self-defense with a handgun? It's not your shooting mechanics, it's not your marksmanship- not at all. It's grappling."

Whether that is true or not, and there is some humorous hyperbole, I thought this video provided some good food for thought, and while some people might do a bit of basic retention training, this does seem to be an area that is generally neglected. Even among gun people who train frequently, it seems they tend to focus on the shooting aspect, which may not be the best use of their time even if the subject is self-defense with a firearm.

Also some practical demonstration throughout the video, especially at the end...

Thoughts?

 

[earlthegoat2]

It is a good skill to have in your back pocket.

It has been discussed at length here:

Empty Handed Training

This is kind of a follow on topic to my earlier thread about trainers being booked out for a year in advance. I recently decided to look for "empty handed" training, specifically, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, or both. I already had some prior experience, many years ago, in Tae Kwon Do, so it was...

www.thehighroad.org

 

[.38 Special]

I agree completely. Anyone who is physically capable of it should include physical training along with range time. Frankly, if I was in charge, the shooting range would be in the same building with the MMA gym.

 

[GRIZ22]

Something I learned long ago. If you see every confrontation a nail you will see your solution as a hammer.

99.9% of confrontations are not legally requiring deadly force. You have to prepare yourself for this.

Any LEO can tell you this.

 

[JohnKSa]

Interesting to note that some sources indicate that the LEO (Detective Travis) who was recently attacked by the hammer-wielding serial criminal shot herself in the hand during the encounter. Very easy to do if you have not trained in how to deal with trying to hold someone off and simultaneously defend against a contact weapon while using a pistol in self-defense.

Even if you can't or won't get into true grappling techniques, one should still train for what to do if someone's on top of you and you have to deploy your pistol when you can't create distance.

 

[Balrog]

I can see how hand to hand skills are obviously an advantage, but would think that if you let a threat get close enough to you that grappling was necessary, something went wrong. There are certainly situations where that could happen, but if you are situationally aware, maybe you can identify, avoid, or prepare to defend against such a threat before they are within arms reach in many cases?

Seems like it would be much more important for police to have grappling skills, since they are tasked with subduing bad guys.

 

[Kleanbore]

99.9% of confrontations are not legally requiring deadly force.

Basis?

 

[MEHavey]

if you let a threat get close enough to you that grappling was necessary, something went wrong.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^
Space is your friend

 

[mcb]

Having some unarmed fighting capability is just one more option (a very useful option since it does not require any tools) in the box of available options, but the most potent is the mind a flexible mind willing to consider all options.

"When your mind is a weapon you are never unarmed." -Malcolm X

My favorite example is a van full of attackers rolls up on a single man pumping gas. They exit the vehicle clearly set on physically assaulting and robbing the guy pumping gas. He quickly realizes this and what does he do. He doesn't draw a gun, he doesn't execute some spectacular martial art that lets him beat the out numbering attackers. He simply turns the gas pump on them and hoses them all down. It was a spectacular example of thinking on your feet and using what is immediately available to defend yourself. In that particular case I would argue it worked better than any amount of martial prowess could have give the outnumbering attackers.



“A weapon is a tool," she repeated, a little breathlessly. "A tool for killing and destroying. And there will be times when, as an Envoy, you must kill and destroy. Then you will choose and equip yourself with the tools that you need. But remember the weakness of weapons. They are an extension--you are the killer and destroyer. You are whole, with or without them.” - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon <-Spectacular modern Noir/Cyberpunk novel, the first of an exceptional trilogy.

 

[shafter]

Excellent video. There is so much talk in the gun community about not letting the "threat" get close to you. While a good tactic and something to strive for it doesn't work that way in real life and shows a fundamental lack of understanding how ambush predators work. What do you do when someone simply walks up to you and they have nothing in their hands and they've made no threats? Are you going to turn and run away based on this alone, of course not. We'd all be running all day long. What if you tell them to stay back and they ignore it? You can't just draw down on people at this stage of the game. If you shout at the person to get away it's important to remember how that may look to bystanders as often the person shouting is the one perceived to be the aggressor regardless of what is being said.

At some point we're going to be close to other humans and we need to be able to handle things if they turn physical. Even when they go physical there still may not be any justification in drawing your weapon yet. If someone grabs onto you are you going to keep one hand in your pocket on your gun just in case and try to fight with one hand or do you have enough skill to defend yourself effectively while being able to quickly transition to a gun if the fight goes that way.

In an ideal world a defensive skillset would consist of excellent situational awareness and deescalation skills, some striking and grappling for weapon retention, improvised and environmental weapons, and lastly competency with a firearm. Don't be a one trick pony.

 

[GRIZ22]

Basis?

I worked in LE for over 30 years. Only a very small portion of confrontations justified the use or display of deadly force.

 

[shafter]

I worked in LE for over 30 years. Only a very small portion of confrontations justified the use or display of deadly force.

Not as many years on as you but you are absolutely correct. Only a small portion of confrontations result in force and of those an even tinier percent justify lethal force. I'd say this goes for LE as well as non LE from what I've witnessed.

 

[CDW4ME]

This applies to wife, girlfriend, mom, they should go get some training (especially since they tend to be smaller/weaker) - not just guys right...

 

[Kleanbore]

Only a small portion of confrontations result in force and of those an even tinier percent justify lethal force.

That is true. Use of force attorneys who follow the cases report that around 25% of the justifiable defensive course cases rise to the level of justifiable deadly force. Good idea to carry a less lethal means of defense.

 

[JohnKSa]

...if you let a threat get close enough to you that grappling was necessary, something went wrong...

It's not really possible to keep a 3 yard buffer around you at all times. Anyone inside that distance will be able to get hands on you before you draw, even if you draw the instant they start towards you. If they don't telegraph intent until they are closer than that, you have very little chance of getting your gun out before they get to you. Trying to move away is an option to generate space, but turning your back to run is a bad idea unless you know for certain you can outrun them, and backpedaling is even worse. If you think it's bad defending against a contact attack on your feet, try doing it from your back after you've tripped over something because you were running backwards. In addition, instead of having your hands in harms way while you try to fend off an attack, if you are on the ground, instinct is to use your feet which puts your legs and feet in the line of fire if you shoot from the ground.

So, YES, if you let a threat get close enough that grappling is necessary, something has gone wrong. There's no question about it. Unfortunately that doesn't imply that it is avoidable.

We train specifically for when things go wrong. This is one of them.

 

[bearcreek]

I can see how hand to hand skills are obviously an advantage, but would think that if you let a threat get close enough to you that grappling was necessary, something went wrong. There are certainly situations where that could happen, but if you are situationally aware, maybe you can identify, avoid, or prepare to defend against such a threat before they are within arms reach in many cases?

That's only possible if you never spend time around other humans.

 

[Coyote3855]

Situational awareness is key. I agree with JohnKSa that going about daily life means people may get in your space without you being aware. I have martial arts training and carry pepper spray in addition to a handgun. Things can go wrong. Gotta be prepared to do the OODA loop.

 

[Balrog]

That's only possible if you never spend time around other humans.

Could you explain what you mean? What I am trying to say is I think with proper situation awareness, most threats can be identified before they are within arms reach. Do you disagree?

I have never had to wrestle with a criminal, or draw my weapon in self defense, and I attribute that to situational awareness. I avoid places that are sketchy, and in all other pay attentions pay a lot of attention to my surroundings and the actions, body language, and movements of others there.

 

[JohnKSa]

...most threats can be identified before they are within arms reach. Do you disagree?

The distance restriction to be sure you can avoid having to grapple is more like 21 feet, not arm's reach. Inside that distance, a reasonably fit person can get hands on you before you can get your gun deployed effectively even if you have already identified them as a threat and are watching when they start their run at you.

Realistically, one needs to have some sort of plan and training for how to deal with that. Maybe grappling, maybe just how to hold a person off or provide a very basic defense against a contact weapon while deploying a defensive sidearm without shooting one's self in the hand/arm that is being used for physical defense.

 

[Balrog]

The distance restriction to be sure you can avoid having to grapple is more like 21 feet, not arm's reach. Inside that distance, a reasonably fit person can get hands on you before you can get your gun deployed effectively even if you have already identified them as a threat and are watching when they start their run at you.

Realistically, one needs to have some sort of plan and training for how to deal with that. Maybe grappling, maybe just how to hold a person off or provide a very basic defense against a contact weapon while deploying a defensive sidearm without shooting one's self in the hand/arm that is being used for physical defense.

That's a good point, people may be able to cover distance quickly and get on you. But most of the events I hear about or see videos don't generally involve an assailant charging from 20 feet away, but rather approaching an unsuspecting victim at a normal pace that does not draw attention from any bystanders, and then attacking suddenly when they are near the victim. Certainly your scenario of a charge from an attacker 20 feet away would be possible though.

 

[JohnKSa]

But most of the events I hear about or see videos don't generally involve an assailant charging from 20 feet away, but rather approaching an unsuspecting victim at a normal pace that does not draw attention from any bystanders, and then attacking suddenly when they are near the victim.

I'm not saying attacks often start with people charging from 20 feet away. The point is that they COULD do that and get hands on a defender. Anyone inside that distance (5 feet, 10 feet, 11 feet, 4 feet, 7 feet, 19 feet), even if identified before they start the attack, will be able to force a grappling/physical contact encounter if that's what they want. Which means that "arm's reach" is absolutely not the standard one needs to be maintaining if their goal is to never have to deal with an attacker physically.

Furthermore, approaching normally without drawing attention and then attacking from near the victim is even harder to defend against than someone who telegraphs their intent and starts a charge from 20 feet away. That's actually a far worse scenario to prepare for if you want to avoid physical contact.

The idea that there are reasonable precautions a defender can take that will prevent them from ever having to be in physical contact with an attacker is just not realistic. It's impossible to go about one's normal activities in public while ensuring that no one ever gets close enough to launch a physical attack. Defenders should have some sort of strategy to deal with that reality and train for it.

 

[bearcreek]

Could you explain what you mean? What I am trying to say is I think with proper situation awareness, most threats can be identified before they are within arms reach. Do you disagree?

What I mean is that you may be able to identify threats from further than arms reach or you may not. If you go out in public at all, you will at times be in situations where you can't keep people further away than "arms reach". Besides that, even if you do identify the "threat" from further away than that, you should not assume you'll be able to stop them before they close the distance, or, even if you do stop one, you may not stop the next one, or the next and so on. You may get a kill shot into an assailant from a distance, but that doesn't mean they'll finish dying before they close the distance to you. "Situational awareness" has become a bit of a cliche in the firearms world. It's obviously a good idea to pay attention to what's going on around you, but it's no more of a magical talisman than is the gun itself. It's a "tool in the toolbox" (to use another very tired cliche), but it's not the only tool.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Couple of things I've come to learn after 10 years instructing firearms training and 3 years of attending BJJ (grappling):

A lot of people think they can shoot well. Most, without training, cannot.

A lot of people think they can fight (hands) well. Most, without training, cannot.

A lot of people think they know how the fight is going to happen. A lot of them are... Mistaken.

Not every problem is a gun problem.

I get it, keep the distance... if you can...
But you're not always going to know you're in a fight until it's too late.


Training grappling and/or striking is going to make you way better prepared for a real problem. It's pretty simple.

Training grappling keeps you humble. There's always a guy on the mats who can kick your butt six ways to Sunday. This helps you size up threats more accurately and have a realistic expectation of what you can do.


Lastly, training grappling keeps me in shape. A lot of fighting for your life comes down to fitness and preparation (training).

And to be honest, I see a lot of people who are super into self defense and such, many of them are great shots. But too many of them would be defeated by a good flight of stairs.

 

[bearcreek]

And to be honest, I see a lot of people who are super into self defense and such, many of them are great shots. But too many of them would be defeated by a good flight of stairs.

Absolutely. I've said it many times in person and on this forum. Most gun owners would do well to sell half of their guns and buy a gym membership or a weight set and pair of running shoes.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Absolutely. I've said it many times in person and on this forum. Most gun owners would do well to sell half of their guns and buy a gym membership or a weight set and pair of running shoes.

I'm not a gun selling kinda guy (one of my many flaws) but I agree with the sentiment.

I am horrible at working out on my own. I like the motivation of someone trying to break my arm or strangle the life out of me instead. Really brings home a sense of urgency.

An important thing to remember, and I think I saw it posted earlier in this thread, is things like our own age and abilities.

We have to be realistic about what our options are. That is not to say we can't expand those options, though.