The most important physical skill for CCW is... grappling?

[shafter]

The distance restriction to be sure you can avoid having to grapple is more like 21 feet, not arm's reach. Inside that distance, a reasonably fit person can get hands on you before you can get your gun deployed effectively even if you have already identified them as a threat and are watching when they start their run at you.

Realistically, one needs to have some sort of plan and training for how to deal with that. Maybe grappling, maybe just how to hold a person off or provide a very basic defense against a contact weapon while deploying a defensive sidearm without shooting one's self in the hand/arm that is being used for physical defense.

My question for folks would be what is your plan for when someone charges you from 21 feet away but has no visible weapon? You can't just shoot them for running towards you. Pepper spray is probably a good option for many but I prefer to back it up with grappling skills.

I'm not a gun selling kinda guy (one of my many flaws) but I agree with the sentiment.

I am horrible at working out on my own. I like the motivation of someone trying to break my arm or strangle the life out of me instead. Really brings home a sense of urgency.

An important thing to remember, and I think I saw it posted earlier in this thread, is things like our own age and abilities.

We have to be realistic about what our options are. That is not to say we can't expand those options, though.

Very well said.

 

[Balrog]

My question for folks would be what is your plan for when someone charges you from 21 feet away but has no visible weapon? You can't just shoot them for running towards you. Pepper spray is probably a good option for many but I prefer to back it up with grappling skills.



Very well said.

I am too old to go to wrestling with a 20 year old. I'd fight him off best I could til I could get my gun drawn, and then one of us is gonna get shot.

 

[JohnKSa]

A reasonable top-level strategy. Next step is work out the details and then practice. If you don't want to pay a trainer, you can watch a lot of badgecam/dashcam videos and see what works and what doesn't when two people are fighting and one of them tries to draw a gun.

 

[aaaaa]

Having some unarmed fighting capability is just one more option (a very useful option since it does not require any tools) in the box of available options, but the most potent is the mind a flexible mind willing to consider all options.

"When your mind is a weapon you are never unarmed." -Malcolm X

My favorite example is a van full of attackers rolls up on a single man pumping gas. They exit the vehicle clearly set on physically assaulting and robbing the guy pumping gas. He quickly realizes this and what does he do. He doesn't draw a gun, he doesn't execute some spectacular martial art that lets him beat the out numbering attackers. He simply turns the gas pump on them and hoses them all down. It was a spectacular example of thinking on your feet and using what is immediately available to defend yourself. In that particular case I would argue it worked better than any amount of martial prowess could have give the outnumbering attackers.



“A weapon is a tool," she repeated, a little breathlessly. "A tool for killing and destroying. And there will be times when, as an Envoy, you must kill and destroy. Then you will choose and equip yourself with the tools that you need. But remember the weakness of weapons. They are an extension--you are the killer and destroyer. You are whole, with or without them.” - Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon <-Spectacular modern Noir/Cyberpunk novel, the first of an exceptional trilogy.

guess I better start closing my windows before I gas up.

 

[Old Dog]

"Do you know what the single most important physical skill is when it comes to self-defense with a handgun? It's not your shooting mechanics, it's not your marksmanship- not at all. It's grappling."

I guess we should expect hyperbole such as this from someone who makes money teaching grappling.

I disagree with this guy's statement.

While it should be clear that anyone who carries a firearm for defensive purposes absolutely should train and practice weapons retention AND must strive to maintain the highest level of physical fitness their bodies are capable of, to say that grappling is the single most important physical skill when it comes to sefl-defense with a handgun is rather preposterous.

A large portion of those who carry firearms for self-defense do so because they are already disadvantaged physically -- based on age, prior injuries, physical disabilities, gender, smaller stature. Who am I kidding if I were to proclaim to some of these folks that it's more important for them to learn grappling and train in it, rather than improving things like their mode of carry, mechanics of their draw strokes, shooting precision and accuracy?

I had to step down from the tactical team in my late 50s because frankly, I couldn't keep up in the physical arena. With both shoulders crap and surgically repaired, after a knee replacement, hands, wrists, elbows, back and knees riddled with arthritis, I'm not gonna kid myself -- the only way I'm gonna prevail in hand-to-hand fighting right now is if my opponent is in worse physical shape than I am (or agrees to fight under Marquis of Queensbury boxing rules, I still have some residual boxing skills). Running? Ha! Hell, I'm reduced to my elliptical and a bicycle; even swimming is a chore now. Grappling requires constant training in good techniques and also maintaining upper body, core and lower body strength. That's just not possible for a lot of folks. I'm done with getting thrown to the mat a bunch of times during a four-hour class.

So no, for many of us, what our man in the video has to say is just more noise.

 

[Balrog]

I guess we should expect hyperbole such as this from someone who makes money teaching grappling.

I disagree with this guy's statement.

While it should be clear that anyone who carries a firearm for defensive purposes absolutely should train and practice weapons retention AND must strive to maintain the highest level of physical fitness their bodies are capable of, to say that grappling is the single most important physical skill when it comes to sefl-defense with a handgun is rather preposterous.

A large portion of those who carry firearms for self-defense do so because they are already disadvantaged physically -- based on age, prior injuries, physical disabilities, gender, smaller stature. Who am I kidding if I were to proclaim to some of these folks that it's more important for them to learn grappling and train in it, rather than improving things like their mode of carry, mechanics of their draw strokes, shooting precision and accuracy?

I had to step down from the tactical team in my late 50s because frankly, I couldn't keep up in the physical arena. With both shoulders crap and surgically repaired, after a knee replacement, hands, wrists, elbows, back and knees riddled with arthritis, I'm not gonna kid myself -- the only way I'm gonna prevail in hand-to-hand fighting right now is if my opponent is in worse physical shape than I am (or agrees to fight under Marquis of Queensbury boxing rules, I still have some residual boxing skills). Running? Ha! Hell, I'm reduced to my elliptical and a bicycle; even swimming is a chore now. Grappling requires constant training in good techniques and also maintaining upper body, core and lower body strength. That's just not possible for a lot of folks. I'm done with getting thrown to the mat a bunch of times during a four-hour class.

So no, for many of us, what our man in the video has to say is just more noise.

Thats pretty much what I think also. Firearms are used successfully thousands of times a year by people who are generally untrained, even with the firearm, let alone in grappling. Is that ideal? No. Would I ever argue against training? No. But calling grappling the most important skill to be successful with a firearm is just more fake news. But if I was trying to get people to pay me to teach them to grapple, I would probably be saying it too!

 

[hso]

if you let a threat get close enough to you that grappling was necessary, something went wrong

Sometimes that's where things start.

 

[FL-NC]

I still do the MMA thing 3 nights a week, and 2 realistic sessions at the range a month, and I've been to some fairly advanced training in my old job. I can still take a "L". I've been in about every kind of fight that there is, and they are all dangerous and scary- not to mention tiring. The average person who doesn't train can't expect to do great in any attack- even if he/she sees it coming.

 

[GEM]

if you let a threat get close enough to you that grappling was necessary, something went wrong

In real life, you are in crowds. Ever go to the supermarket? Hard to maintain Tueller distance in the chocolate chip muffin aisle. Some bad people do not announce they are bad people with a neon sign.

I hear the degradation of physical ability, sigh. When I see folks saying they will OC and then see a video of a heavily, muscled young man engaged in a grab - yeah, max out your strength and training but I'm 75 and then realize the gun should be concealed.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Could you explain what you mean? What I am trying to say is I think with proper situation awareness, most threats can be identified before they are within arms reach. Do you disagree?

I have never had to wrestle with a criminal, or draw my weapon in self defense, and I attribute that to situational awareness. I avoid places that are sketchy, and in all other pay attentions pay a lot of attention to my surroundings and the actions, body language, and movements of others there.

Ever been sucker punched? How about walking around school as a kid and had your books knocked out of your hands?

Don't get me wrong...you ARE correct that situation awareness is a vital skill. However, it's impossible to be100% aware 100% of the time, even in the best of circumstances.

Not all attacks are telegraphed, even for people who know what to look for.

Walking down the street puts you within bumping distance of innumerable people all the time. So does riding a bicycle or motor vehicle. And while it's a given that MOST criminals would rather not be caught, and therefore would not wish to be witnessed in a criminal act, there are those who just don't care. Snatch and grabs take only an instant, and in that instant all it takes is a knife to your body to keep you from doing squat.

People should DEFINITELY hone their situational awareness skills. It's absolutely vital. Just realize that it's only one vital skill among many.

 

[Balrog]

Ever been sucker punched? How about walking around school as a kid and had your books knocked out of your hands?

Don't get me wrong...you ARE correct that situation awareness is a vital skill. However, it's impossible to be100% aware 100% of the time, even in the best of circumstances.

Not all attacks are telegraphed, even for people who know what to look for.

Walking down the street puts you within bumping distance of innumerable people all the time. So does riding a bicycle or motor vehicle. And while it's a given that MOST criminals would rather not be caught, and therefore would not wish to be witnessed in a criminal act, there are those who just don't care. Snatch and grabs take only an instant, and in that instant all it takes is a knife to your body to keep you from doing squat.

People should DEFINITELY hone their situational awareness skills. It's absolutely vital. Just realize that it's only one vital skill among many.

I agree, that's why I said most as opposed to all threats could be identified before they get to close. I think that statement is generally true.

 

[DoubleMag]

If you watched the video to the end, some kids are practicing in the dojo and a fake gun gets tossed into the foray. Even with basic training (I do not know their skill level) it wasn't pretty.

ANY training, whether its firearms, unarmed, dinner courtesy with the lady or potty training is better then none training.

NOTICE, I did NOT say, better then ''no training.'' It's worse then that. Without any training you are reverting to the worst training. None. Say with me, ''I have NONE.''

None Training, VERY time consuming, very expensive if you are forced to use it. Leaves the practitioner in a false sense of security. Etc.

 

[tdbmd]

Difficult question. Some physical, non-firearm skills are certainly a great idea but the further idea that you are going to go BJJ with one or possibly multiple attackers, on the concrete/gravel is a real question. I am in my mid 50s, in fair, not great shape (which I know is on me) but I am not going to be seeking out hand to hand combat. Maybe the suggestion of a lesser level of force is the the better option, like OC spray. At least for me.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Difficult question. Some physical, non-firearm skills are certainly a great idea but the further idea that you are going to go BJJ with one or possibly multiple attackers, on the concrete/gravel is a real question. I am in my mid 50s, in fair, not great shape (which I know is on me) but I am not going to be seeking out hand to hand combat. Maybe the suggestion of a lesser level of force is the the better option, like OC spray. At least for me.

Don't misunderstand, no one would be seeking out any kind of hand fight or going to the ground. We

But there is a strong chance that in a conflict, you might end up on the ground. Snapping an arm at the elbow real quick while your down there may be a good option when your list of good options has run out.

Also, you know who's real good at getting up from the ground? Dudes who specialize in the ground game.

Just more of my 2 cents

 

[tdbmd]

Don't misunderstand, no one would be seeking out any kind of hand fight or going to the ground. We

But there is a strong chance that in a conflict, you might end up on the ground. Snapping an arm at the elbow real quick while your down there may be a good option when your list of good options has run out.

Also, you know who's real good at getting up from the ground? Dudes who specialize in the ground game.

Just more of my 2 cents

Oh, I agree that the skills are/can be a big benefit but just sort of thinking out loud. Going to the ground in a street fight, on gravel/concrete as a 50+ person is not what it might have been when I was 30 and routinely training in martial arts. Speaking for myself, I would (and do) try to ramp up my situational awareness so I can avoid/retreat from such situations. The multiple videos out there that show an altercation and as soon as the combatants hit the ground, multiple others are in there with kicks/stomping. That thought scares me for sure. Getting stomped on the head on concrete is serious business. I don't know the correct answer, probably a combination of many of the above suggestions.

 

[shafter]

BJJ teaches how to get up from the ground as well as how to perform takedown that would be a good opportunity to run away. It also teaches how to be comfortable and escape disadvantageous positions.

BJJ is actually well suited for people with less physical strength because technique far outweighs strength and weight.

For those who simply can't go hands on OC spray is pretty much the only realistic non lethal option.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Firearms trainer Tom Givens has had 67 of his students accosted by armed criminals.

Three of his students were murdered when they decided they didn't need to carry a gun that day.

The remaining 64 students successfully defended themselves by shooting the aggressors.

61 out of the 64 defensive shootings occurred between 3-7 yards, with the overwhelming majority being between 3-5 yards (within 1 car length).

The other three shootings were beyond 7 yards, with the farthest being 21 yards.

95% of Givens' students DGU encounters occurred between 3-7 yards.

Based on Givens data, grappling is an outlier situation which makes it a very low training priority. Does it ever happen? Yes, but the odds are very low.

 

[shafter]

Firearms trainer Tom Givens has had 67 of his students accosted by armed criminals.

Three of his students were murdered when they decided they didn't need to carry a gun that day.

The remaining 64 students successfully defended themselves by shooting the aggressors.

61 out of the 64 defensive shootings occurred between 3-7 yards, with the overwhelming majority being between 3-5 yards (within 1 car length).

The other three shootings were beyond 7 yards, with the farthest being 21 yards.

95% of Givens' students DGU encounters occurred between 3-7 yards.

Based on Givens data, grappling is an outlier situation which makes it a very low training priority. Does it ever happen? Yes, but the odds are very low.

That's not the complete picture though. How many total students has he had over the years? Probably thousands. He only has data on the ones who were in deadly confrontations. It's doubtful he would have heard from a student who defended themselves in a non lethal scuffle with striking or grappling they learned from someone else.

It also doesn't account for many fights beginning as a physical fight and then turns deadly. There isn't enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

That's not the complete picture though. How many total students has he had over the years? Probably thousands. He only has data on the ones who were in deadly confrontations. It's doubtful he would have heard from a student who defended themselves in a non lethal scuffle with striking or grappling they learned from someone else.

It also doesn't account for many fights beginning as a physical fight and then turns deadly. There isn't enough data to draw any meaningful conclusions.

The context of the OP's discussion is the claim that grappling is the single most important physical skill when it comes to self-defense with a handgun.

IIRC (I don't have his new book handy at the moment to look it up), Givens also reported that 2 DGU incidents involved body contact.

The DGU circumstances that Givens' students have encountered are consistent with the reported DGU circumstances that plainclothes FBI and DEA agents encounter when they're working in sketchy areas where armed criminals mistake them for a private citizen and attempt to victimize them at gunpoint.

The available data show that grappling is an outlier, and doesn't support the claim that grappling is the single most important physical skill when it comes to self-defense with a handgun.

 

[bearcreek]

The available data show that grappling is an outlier, and doesn't support the claim that grappling is the single most important physical skill when it comes to self-defense with a handgun.

What is the most important physical skill then?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

What is the most important physical skill then?

Carry your damn gun.

 

[bearcreek]

Carry your damn gun.

Carrying a gun isn't a skill. Any animal with opposable thumbs can do that.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I submit that if you've gotten to the grappling stage, then you've largely lost your opportunity to effectively deploy your firearm in defense.

At this point, grappling becomes as much about retention as it is survival.

Being able to defend yourself in hand-to-hand is indeed a valuable skill. But its importance is relative to everything else going on in any given encounter. For instance, my ability to defend myself hand-to-hand is of lesser value if I can engage an attacker BEFORE he can lay his hands on me.

ANY form of defense/combat has its strength and weaknesses. And all encounters are to be conducted in a fashion which benefits your own strengths and plays on their own weaknesses. As a person who is not, by nature, a violent person at 5' 9" and 175 pounds, it is a losing proposition for me to go up against a 6'-plus, 225 pound violent person hand-to-hand.

This isn't Hollywood...real life violent encounters are distinctly...not nice.

As I said before...it IS a valuable skill, and certainly good to have in one's toolbox in order to be able to integrate it when needed. But it's not unilaterally the most important one.

 

[Kleanbore]

I submit that if you've gotten to the grappling stage, then you've largely lost your opportunity to effectively deploy your firearm in defense.

And you must regain it.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Carrying a gun isn't a skill. Any animal with opposable thumbs can do that.

Post #42 shows what you should focus your training on.

Of the 95% of Givens' students that carried their damn gun, 100% won their gunfights.

95% of the gunfights occurred between 3-7 yards, which is supported by other data.

Therefore being able to quickly draw and deliver effective hits between 3-7 yards should probably be the primary focus of your training.

Plausible outlier situations shouldn't be ignored but they take lower training priority.

Also carry pepper spray. Unlike a pistol, you can draw and have pepper spray in your hand, ready to immediately use without breaking any laws.

If you're concerned about a grappling fight then I suggest you take Craig Douglas' ECQC (Extreme Close Quarters Concepts) course:

What is an ECQC?

Extreme Close Quarter ConceptsThe "flagship" two-and-a-half-day course offers a multi-disciplinary approach to building functional, combative handgun skills ...

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